Aa's Fortress Is Being Attacked...

[Bob Owens]

AA is a Low Labor Cost Carrier. Why worry?

Most of the so called LCCs have higher starting wages than AA.

 

[TWAnr]

Most of the so called LCCs have higher starting wages than AA.

[post="283221"][/post]​

Right, however you leave out the fact that with more flexible work rules and cross utilization of employees, the work forces at the LCC carriers are a lot more productive and as a result the overall cost of labor is considerably lower than at AA.

 

[FWAAA]

TWAnr is correct. AA may be a low-wage carrier, but it is a long way from being a low-cost carrier.

 

[eolesen]

Whatever AMR flushes, it ends up as something MIA must deal with or else

That obviously included you at one point...

 

[WingNaPrayer]

You feel better now? Most often people take a whack at others out of their own bitterness and low self-esteem. So by all means, get it off your chest!

 

[mjk]

Most often people take a whack at others out of their own bitterness and low self-esteem.

[post="283316"][/post]​

That goes for a lot of people on this board.

 

[eolesen]

Most often people take a whack at others out of their own bitterness and low self-esteem.

[post="283316"][/post]​

That last sentence explains just about every post you've made in the past two years. You've had a serious axe to grind against MIA management in particular, so my guess is you're either a bitter ex-employee or the partner of an (ex-)employee.

Me bitter? Hardly. I just call things the way I see it.

 

[WingNaPrayer]

Me bitter? Hardly. I just call things the way I see it.

[post="283326"][/post]​

Funny, that is exactly what I do! Obviously we don't see the same things.

 

[Bob Owens]

Right, however you leave out the fact that with more flexible work rules and cross utilization of employees, the work forces at the LCC carriers are a lot more productive and as a result the overall cost of labor is considerably lower than at AA.

[post="283251"][/post]​

OK, show me where the LCCS have more flexible work rules, lets take the biggest, most successful LCC of all and compare-SWA.

I've seen this claim over and over again but nothing to back it up. The fact is that AA has more "flexibility" with the TWU than just about any airline. AA is one of the very few airlines that has had cross utilization for over 20 years written right into their contract. They are one of the few that only recognizes five holidays and only pays half pay to those that work the five recognized holidays. AA has enjoyed employee contributed health benifits for over 15 years and they do as they pplease. Please present some facts to back up the claim that you made.

If the workers at SWA, the biggest most successful LCC, are more productive then it is entirely the fault of AAs business plan or the ability of its management to implement it. Its not the fault of the workers.

 

[TWAnr]

If the workers at SWA, the biggest most successful LCC, are more productive then it is entirely the fault of AAs business plan or the ability of its management to implement it. Its not the fault of the workers.

[post="283497"][/post]​

To begin with, passenger and ramp services are cross utilized. Pilots and flight attendants help clean the cabin to enable a quick turn around times.

You union has negotiated very rigid work rules that prevents any other work group from helping out in a bind. Southwest has only 74 employees per aircraft. That figure is remarkably lower than AA's 128, even taking into consideration the fact that AA has a diverse fleet with a substantial number of wide bodied aircraft.

Blaming management for your union's antiquated attitude only shows how serious the problem is.

 

[kirkpatrick]

Right, however you leave out the fact that with more flexible work rules and cross utilization of employees, the work forces at the LCC carriers are a lot more productive and as a result the overall cost of labor is considerably lower than at AA.

[post="283251"][/post]​

Another consideration is the number of people at each end of the pay scale. AA mainline actually starts FA's at under $20 per hour, and Jet Blue has a $37 per hour top of scale wage, but no one has gotten there yet. AA has about 60% of its FA's at the top of the scale, which right now is $43.99 per hour domestic. AA has very few at the lower levels of its pay scale, but SW and JB, which are growing, have large numbers.

MK

 

[eolesen]

Jetblue also doesn't have vacation and sick time as we know it. Instead, they offer X days of paid time off based on years of service, so there's an incentive for employees not to call in sick as a way of getting added vacation days. Accordingly, their lost time due to sick calls is quite minimal.

And don't underestimate the cost savings of being able to cross-utilize any employee group to clean the cabin on turns or thru trips at either WN or B6. That's a huge productivity gain. I've lost count of the number of grievances I've seen due to an agent or CSM picking up trash when cabin service/fleet service couldn't get up to the aircraft in time to get a flight out under MOGT.

When QC'ing an aircraft a few years back, I had a crew chief insist that a clerk remove the upholstery from a cushion so I could check the CPN on the tag. That's productivity at its finest.... Instead of doing their piece of the overnight BOW, this clerk had to shadow me around to a couple aircraft. Next time I had to do this, I waited until the crew was on break, and it took a fraction of the time to do the same number of QC's, plus it didn't impact the crew doing the overnights. I have no doubt that at B6 or WN, there wouldn't be anyone questioning what we were doing, or insisting that they do the work for us...

 

[Bob Owens]

To begin with, passenger and ramp services are cross utilized.


Well passenger service is non-union, they do not have a contract so the company can and does do as they please.

Pilots and flight attendants help clean the cabin to enable a quick turn around times.

Pilots at SWA clean aircraft? With the short turnarounds and tight schedules I would think that they would be doing walk arounds and preflights. Imagine if a Captain stuck his hand into a seat back pocket and was stuck with a hypodermic needle and now the flight was cancelled? Having pilots clean the planes does not seem like a smart practice and I've often seen AA FAs help clean aircraft on quick turnarounds.


You union has negotiated very rigid work rules that prevents any other work group from helping out in a bind.

Such as? Please quote the article that contain the strict work rules that you claim exist. I believe you can view the contract on the TWU Local 562 website. I recall 9-11 when the company sent most of the baggage handlers home, mechanics went over and offloaded the bags for the stranded passengers. I also recall mechanics volunteering to work OT in the bagroom after the paycuts in 2003, some were called, the union was OK with it but I believe that management from maintenance put a stop to it because they did not like the fact that the money being paid to those mechanics came from the maintenance budget. I recall the maintenance Station manager from JFK saying that he did not know who was going to pay them. He said he was not going to use his budget paying mechanics to work the bagroom. I said AA was going to pay them and that if they are not paid when due that he would get a grievance. I told him that AA put in the language for cross utilization and that we could care less whose budget the funds come from as far as we are concerned they worked for AA and AA had to pay them.

Southwest has only 74 employees per aircraft. That figure is remarkably lower than AA's 128, even taking into consideration the fact that AA has a diverse fleet with a substantial number of wide bodied aircraft.

Well those figure you can spin anyway you like. Could the figure be inflated because of the high numbers of management we have? How did you factor in the diverse fleet? Did you consider the fact that having a singular fleet type, especially if that fleet type is a small simple aircraft will greatly reduce the number of people needed? It takes more workers to operate a big aircraft than a smaller aircraft. Did you ever consider that one of the reasons why SWA chose the 737 is its simplicity and low labor requirements? How does AAs figure for each 737 compare to SWAs figure per 737? In other words lets say AA adds one 737 to the fleet how many employees will that extra 737 add compared to SWA?? The fact is that I'm qualified to work on every type of aircraft that AA flies into the station where I work, so if anything AA is getting a bargain. I certainly have no objections to AA going to a singular fleet type, it would make my job easier. The inefficiencies of multiple fleet types and the resultant increase in the ratio of employees per aircraft is not because of contractual restrictions but rather the companys business plan.


Blaming management for your union's antiquated attitude only shows how serious the problem is.

Well you have yet to come up with anything supporting your case. You are blaming workers for the performance of the company. Thats unreasonable-management is responsible for the performance of the company. You have yet to produce anything from the contract that puts an onerous burden on management.

You brought up cross utilization. I showed you that AA has had cross utilization (since 1983)however the way the company is run, where departments fight over who pays what out of whose budget is what prevents the company from utilizing it not the union contract.

You claimed that pilots and flight attendants clean planes, If they are paying pilots to clean planes then they are not utilizing their pilots properly. Even if they are not using flight hours they are using up part of their duty time. I've often seen AA flight attendants help out on quick turns cleaning planes.

You claimed that my union negotiated very rigid work rules that prevents us from helping out others in a bind, once again I've provided examples that that show thats not true and informed you that the company can cross utilize.

Your final claim is that SWA has less employees per aircraft , OK, but you have not shown that this is due to our contract. However you admit right off the bat that AAs diverse fleet has an impact on that. In other words that the companies business plan where they have multple fleet types injects inefficiency into the operation as far as headcount.

So enough with tired old claims that our contracts prevent the company from making money. Present some real facts, if you can.

 

[Bob Owens]

Another consideration is the number of people at each end of the pay scale. AA mainline actually starts FA's at under $20 per hour, and Jet Blue has a $37 per hour top of scale wage, but no one has gotten there yet. AA has about 60% of its FA's at the top of the scale, which right now is $43.99 per hour domestic. AA has very few at the lower levels of its pay scale, but SW and JB, which are growing, have large numbers.

MK

[post="283525"][/post]​

Exactly. So when AA laid off its lower paid less senior employees they drove up their labor costs. Then they spin it around and claim that their costs are higher however many considerations are ignored.

 

[Bob Owens]

Jetblue also doesn't have vacation and sick time as we know it. Instead, they offer X days of paid time off based on years of service, so there's an incentive for employees not to call in sick as a way of getting added vacation days. Accordingly, their lost time due to sick calls is quite minimal.

What is it and where did you get the figure?

And don't underestimate the cost savings of being able to cross-utilize any employee group to clean the cabin on turns or thru trips at either WN or B6. That's a huge productivity gain.


AA has had the ability to cross utilize for over 20 years. It is rivalries and competition between the managements of the different departments that prevent the company from utilizing it.
I've lost count of the number of grievances I've seen due to an agent or CSM picking up trash when cabin service/fleet service couldn't get up to the aircraft in time to get a flight out under MOGT.

Well the fix for that is quite simple. Put the agents into the same union under the same contract. Then the union could not claim that the company is deliberately undermanning cabin service and having CSMs do their work in order to shrink the union.Are you claiming that at SWA the unions have no objections to having the company send non-union people in to doing union work?

When QC'ing an aircraft a few years back, I had a crew chief insist that a clerk remove the upholstery from a cushion so I could check the CPN on the tag. That's productivity at its finest....

Maybe he figured you didnt look competant enough to figure out how to put them back together. If the cabins appearance is unacceptable after you go around pulling off seat covers who gets blamed? He does.

Instead of doing their piece of the overnight BOW, this clerk had to shadow me around to a couple aircraft. Next time I had to do this, I waited until the crew was on break, and it took a fraction of the time to do the same number of QC's, plus it didn't impact the crew doing the overnights.


Well arent you the clever one!
I have no doubt that at B6 or WN, there wouldn't be anyone questioning what we were doing, or insisting that they do the work for us...

Did you ever work there or even talk to anyone who does?

SWAs relationships with their unions and the workers is the way it is because of the management at SWA. Management there has been fair and honest with their employees. Management there has delivered on its promise to share its sucess with its employees. As the company grows and prospers its employees benifit. Mechanics at SWA have seen their compensation package become the best in the industry.

This contrasts sharply to the way AA management has dealt and continues to deal with their employees. Here we sacrificed and tripled the size of the company and were rewarded with pay and benifit cuts.We make less now in real dollars than ever before. Dishonest deals like the ME Too clause and a business plan based upon lower wages and less benifits means that AA will never have the relationship that SWA enjoys. Thats not the workers fault or the unions fault, that is solely the fault of management.