I will say that NO ONE would have a problem with thousands of "Foreign Nationals" if they were on the seniority lists and paid accordingly. United has foreigh national f/a''s also, but they were the first to go. Hire "Foreign Nationals", but make it legitamte. Don''t treat them different and pay them less, than their counterparts at the same airline. As it is now, they are on a different seniority list, and work for the same airline. That is what is WRONG.
MIA news: SCL 777; more DEN, CLT; MIA-LHR 2x daily year-round (it appears)
- Thread starter MAH4546
- Start date
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On 5/20/2003 5
32 PM IORFA wrote:
I will say that NO ONE would have a problem with thousands of "Foreign Nationals" if they were on the seniority lists and paid accordingly. United has foreigh national f/a''s also, but they were the first to go. Hire "Foreign Nationals", but make it legitamte. Don''t treat them different and pay them less, than their counterparts at the same airline. As it is now, they are on a different seniority list, and work for the same airline. That is what is WRONG.
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On 5/20/2003 5
32 PM IORFA wrote: I will say that NO ONE would have a problem with thousands of "Foreign Nationals" if they were on the seniority lists and paid accordingly. United has foreigh national f/a''s also, but they were the first to go. Hire "Foreign Nationals", but make it legitamte. Don''t treat them different and pay them less, than their counterparts at the same airline. As it is now, they are on a different seniority list, and work for the same airline. That is what is WRONG.
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Well UA''s foreign nationals f/a were the first to go because many of the flights to those cities were being cancelled. (I think UA cancelled MIALIM a while ago and recently MIASCL and MIACCS) If they did it just to protect US based jobs that was wrong, you pay for those things in the long run when you loose local market share.
Regarding different seniority lists, If I was in agreement with, you I would argue that the same should happen with ground workers and pretty much any other impacted group. But I do not agree. Why do we need to pay US salaries in countries with significant differences in cost of living, exchange rates etc etc. The salaries we pay there (to all employees) are competitive in the local market and appropiate to their cost of living. It allows us to be somewhat competitive with foreign flag carriers that use that cost advantage to drive pricing pressure. A unified list will price us out of those markets for good... thus reducing domestic flow .... then forcing us to reduce domestic capacity and impact US based employees. You probably won''t believe it but keeping those bases help generate jobs in the US at US rates. A large percent of our domestic load factor is Latin flow, that would be at risk if we had to cancel some of our MIA routes as a result of a cost increase of the magnitude of what you are suggesting.
air_guy
air_guy,
United didn''t furlough just the foreign nationals from where their flights were cancelled. They got rid of them all before they were allowed to furlough ANY AFA represented f/a. All of the Japanese f/a''s are gone, and they still fly there. Plus United allows AFA f/a''s to transfer to those overseas bases to fill slots. AA would never even imagine allowing us to do that. Plus United pays the US employee the US rates. Before you say go work for United or anything like it, I am just trying to point out the complete differences in the way that AA treats these people from the rest. They treat them like second class citizens. You seem to think that that is allright. Most AA f/a''s don''t think so. But I guess if you are able to travel to SCL or LIM for $199rt because of their wages, who cares right? I mean they do have jobs paying the going rate. By the way, no one knows what they make. We just assume that they make the going rate for their country. Why should we have any reason to doubt that AA wouldn''t treat them right, right?
United didn''t furlough just the foreign nationals from where their flights were cancelled. They got rid of them all before they were allowed to furlough ANY AFA represented f/a. All of the Japanese f/a''s are gone, and they still fly there. Plus United allows AFA f/a''s to transfer to those overseas bases to fill slots. AA would never even imagine allowing us to do that. Plus United pays the US employee the US rates. Before you say go work for United or anything like it, I am just trying to point out the complete differences in the way that AA treats these people from the rest. They treat them like second class citizens. You seem to think that that is allright. Most AA f/a''s don''t think so. But I guess if you are able to travel to SCL or LIM for $199rt because of their wages, who cares right? I mean they do have jobs paying the going rate. By the way, no one knows what they make. We just assume that they make the going rate for their country. Why should we have any reason to doubt that AA wouldn''t treat them right, right?
Air_guy,
The cost issue wouldn''t change too much, I think there are anywhere from 750 -800 or so foreign national f/a''s. Paying them an extra couple dollars an hour wouldn''t cost too much. If that was the difference between break even or not, then we are not charging enough. Why is it that there are no foreign national pilots flying those planes. Our pilots are definately making above average rates for the countries of destination. Seems like it is cost effective for them. If these people were on our seniority lists, they wouldn''t all be furloughed like United did to their foreign nationals either. I also disagree with you in that AA would only pay less than the going rate. They would never pay a differential higher than what the going US rate was. NEVER happen. Why aren''t people after AA and the like about unfair labor practices and wages like they are with Nike and the people who manufacture our shoes? They make the going rate for their area and everyone is up in arms. Why not here? Air_guy, you say it is to be polite to our passengers and customers from S. America. Well, why shouldn''t we hire them and put them on our list and pay them accordingly? That would be the correct thing to do.
The cost issue wouldn''t change too much, I think there are anywhere from 750 -800 or so foreign national f/a''s. Paying them an extra couple dollars an hour wouldn''t cost too much. If that was the difference between break even or not, then we are not charging enough. Why is it that there are no foreign national pilots flying those planes. Our pilots are definately making above average rates for the countries of destination. Seems like it is cost effective for them. If these people were on our seniority lists, they wouldn''t all be furloughed like United did to their foreign nationals either. I also disagree with you in that AA would only pay less than the going rate. They would never pay a differential higher than what the going US rate was. NEVER happen. Why aren''t people after AA and the like about unfair labor practices and wages like they are with Nike and the people who manufacture our shoes? They make the going rate for their area and everyone is up in arms. Why not here? Air_guy, you say it is to be polite to our passengers and customers from S. America. Well, why shouldn''t we hire them and put them on our list and pay them accordingly? That would be the correct thing to do.
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On 5/20/2003 9:18:22 PM IORFA wrote:
air_guy,
United didn''t furlough just the foreign nationals from where their flights were cancelled. They got rid of them all before they were allowed to furlough ANY AFA represented f/a. All of the Japanese f/a''s are gone, and they still fly there. Plus United allows AFA f/a''s to transfer to those overseas bases to fill slots. AA would never even imagine allowing us to do that. Plus United pays the US employee the US rates. Before you say go work for United or anything like it, I am just trying to point out the complete differences in the way that AA treats these people from the rest. They treat them like second class citizens. You seem to think that that is allright. Most AA f/a''s don''t think so. But I guess if you are able to travel to SCL or LIM for $199rt because of their wages, who cares right? I mean they do have jobs paying the going rate. By the way, no one knows what they make. We just assume that they make the going rate for their country. Why should we have any reason to doubt that AA wouldn''t treat them right, right?
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United didn''t furlough just the foreign nationals from where their flights were cancelled. They got rid of them all before they were allowed to furlough ANY AFA represented f/a. All of the Japanese f/a''s are gone, and they still fly there. Plus United allows AFA f/a''s to transfer to those overseas bases to fill slots.On 5/20/2003 9:18:22 PM IORFA wrote:
air_guy,
United didn''t furlough just the foreign nationals from where their flights were cancelled. They got rid of them all before they were allowed to furlough ANY AFA represented f/a. All of the Japanese f/a''s are gone, and they still fly there. Plus United allows AFA f/a''s to transfer to those overseas bases to fill slots. AA would never even imagine allowing us to do that. Plus United pays the US employee the US rates. Before you say go work for United or anything like it, I am just trying to point out the complete differences in the way that AA treats these people from the rest. They treat them like second class citizens. You seem to think that that is allright. Most AA f/a''s don''t think so. But I guess if you are able to travel to SCL or LIM for $199rt because of their wages, who cares right? I mean they do have jobs paying the going rate. By the way, no one knows what they make. We just assume that they make the going rate for their country. Why should we have any reason to doubt that AA wouldn''t treat them right, right?
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Ok they did not base it just in cancellation but as I said shutting down foreign bases while protecting US jobs will hurt them in the long run. As I said before you cannot maintain a large presence in a market if you are not willing to be a large employer as well.
AA would never even imagine allowing us to do that. Plus United pays the US employee the US rates. Before you say go work for United or anything like it, I am just trying to point out the complete differences in the way that AA treats these people from the rest.
I am never going to say go work for them. They can do whatever they want but that does not make it right. As far as I know they are a poorly managed, bankrupt company that may go out of business any day. We are trying to avoid that. It is gonna hurt morale but we have no money. UA may look better today but that could put them out of business tomorrow.
They treat them like second class citizens. You seem to think that that is allright. Most AA f/a''s don''t think so. But I guess if you are able to travel to SCL or LIM for $199rt because of their wages, who cares right? I mean they do have jobs paying the going rate. By the way, no one knows what they make. We just assume that they make the going rate for their country. Why should we have any reason to doubt that AA wouldn''t treat them right, right?
I don''t think they get treated like second class citizens, they would if they were forced to live in the US at their country wage levels. Their salaries and benefits are higher than other South American carriers. I dislike the 199s as much as you do because I am an employee not a passenger, but those prices are not set by us. Those prices are set by the foreign flags carriers that have access to labor at those wages (even lower than AAs), and are desperate to gain market share in the middle of the worst crisis in the airline industry. Denying AA access to those labor markets as I said before would be shooting ourselves in the foot. That I can completely assure you. What alternative, that is economically viable, do you think we have. I we were to merge seniority lists and wages how do we keep flying out of MIA with all the losses we have already. I am advocate of doing the right thing with employees, and I am not sure this is one of those cases... but even if it was that would be another nail in our coffin....
air_guy
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #22
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On 5/21/2003 12:01:45 PM JFK777 wrote:
MIA is not a great F/J market, a retiming of the second flight might help it.
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On 5/21/2003 12:01:45 PM JFK777 wrote:
MIA is not a great F/J market, a retiming of the second flight might help it.
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The new flight is year-round, not seasonal.
And you are absolutley wrong in saying Miami is not a great F/J market. If true, how can you exaplain that BA uses thier low-density (i.e: highest number of premium seats n the fleet) 744s to Miami, twice a day? Miami-London is a very important and key business route for both cities with a good amount of business travelers. Miami-Heathrow market is finally where it should be. This winter, there will be five daily flights on three airlines.
Why such an early departure from LHR? Both flights depart before lunch from LHR. It is neccessary to have a flight arrive at around 3:00PM for onward connections but the second flight should arrive later not earlier. The second departure should be early afternoon with arrival at MIA around 6:00PM. Breakfast at LHR and lunch in MIA just doesn''t work for me. It not like AA is selling a poor man''s Concodrde here with " arrive in time for your afternoon meeting." MIA is not a great F/J market, a retiming of the second flight might help it.
MAH4546,
BA does use a 747-400 with four classes, but there are some versions with more CLUBWORLD then others, MIA gets all versions(of four class 744''s) at different times. That is really no great achievement. Miami is not a city full of expense account investment bankers or Entertainment types like New York or Los Angeles. They fill the F/J with Rich people from Palm Beach, Boca Raton, the Bahamas, Jamaica and of course Miami.
Miami is a unique market in the USA because most other cities don''t have the international feed MIA has and have Fortune 500 compnaies flying their executives F/J(Miami doesn''t have a large Fortune 500 base). Just look to see how many 777 flies from JFK, ORD or BOS to LHR year around, thta tells the story I''m trying too. JFK has 6 BA 744''s daily. Virgin flies 3 744 or A346''s too. Miami is a unique city in North America, it does''t have large mutual fund houses like Boston or Philadephia or big banks like New York or Chicago( I know there are hundreds of Banks in Miami but those guys fly to South America most of the time).
There can only be one " Capitol of Latin America", Miami is it, but this does''t qualify it as a member of the "Six times a day to Heathrow club" LAX, SFO, Bos, ORD, IAD, & JFK are. Miami does have more flights to Madrid if that helps.
BA does use a 747-400 with four classes, but there are some versions with more CLUBWORLD then others, MIA gets all versions(of four class 744''s) at different times. That is really no great achievement. Miami is not a city full of expense account investment bankers or Entertainment types like New York or Los Angeles. They fill the F/J with Rich people from Palm Beach, Boca Raton, the Bahamas, Jamaica and of course Miami.
Miami is a unique market in the USA because most other cities don''t have the international feed MIA has and have Fortune 500 compnaies flying their executives F/J(Miami doesn''t have a large Fortune 500 base). Just look to see how many 777 flies from JFK, ORD or BOS to LHR year around, thta tells the story I''m trying too. JFK has 6 BA 744''s daily. Virgin flies 3 744 or A346''s too. Miami is a unique city in North America, it does''t have large mutual fund houses like Boston or Philadephia or big banks like New York or Chicago( I know there are hundreds of Banks in Miami but those guys fly to South America most of the time).
There can only be one " Capitol of Latin America", Miami is it, but this does''t qualify it as a member of the "Six times a day to Heathrow club" LAX, SFO, Bos, ORD, IAD, & JFK are. Miami does have more flights to Madrid if that helps.
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #26
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On 5/22/2003 5:28:49 PM JFK777 wrote:
MAH4546,
BA does use a 747-400 with four classes, but there are some versions with more CLUBWORLD then others, MIA gets all versions(of four class 744''s) at different times. That is really no great achievement. Miami is not a city full of expense account investment bankers or Entertainment types like New York or Los Angeles. They fill the F/J with Rich people from Palm Beach, Boca Raton, the Bahamas, Jamaica and of course Miami.
Miami is a unique market in the USA because most other cities don''t have the international feed MIA has and have Fortune 500 compnaies flying their executives F/J(Miami doesn''t have a large Fortune 500 base). Just look to see how many 777 flies from JFK, ORD or BOS to LHR year around, thta tells the story I''m trying too. JFK has 6 BA 744''s daily. Virgin flies 3 744 or A346''s too. Miami is a unique city in North America, it does''t have large mutual fund houses like Boston or Philadephia or big banks like New York or Chicago( I know there are hundreds of Banks in Miami but those guys fly to South America most of the time).
There can only be one " Capitol of Latin America", Miami is it, but this does''t qualify it as a member of the "Six times a day to Heathrow club" LAX, SFO, Bos, ORD, IAD, & JFK are. Miami does have more flights to Madrid if that helps.
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On 5/22/2003 5:28:49 PM JFK777 wrote:
MAH4546,
BA does use a 747-400 with four classes, but there are some versions with more CLUBWORLD then others, MIA gets all versions(of four class 744''s) at different times. That is really no great achievement. Miami is not a city full of expense account investment bankers or Entertainment types like New York or Los Angeles. They fill the F/J with Rich people from Palm Beach, Boca Raton, the Bahamas, Jamaica and of course Miami.
Miami is a unique market in the USA because most other cities don''t have the international feed MIA has and have Fortune 500 compnaies flying their executives F/J(Miami doesn''t have a large Fortune 500 base). Just look to see how many 777 flies from JFK, ORD or BOS to LHR year around, thta tells the story I''m trying too. JFK has 6 BA 744''s daily. Virgin flies 3 744 or A346''s too. Miami is a unique city in North America, it does''t have large mutual fund houses like Boston or Philadephia or big banks like New York or Chicago( I know there are hundreds of Banks in Miami but those guys fly to South America most of the time).
There can only be one " Capitol of Latin America", Miami is it, but this does''t qualify it as a member of the "Six times a day to Heathrow club" LAX, SFO, Bos, ORD, IAD, & JFK are. Miami does have more flights to Madrid if that helps.
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I''m not saying Miami is in the same league as the others (though it is only one flight short of the "six times a day club" and when AA re-instates thier now year-round 2nd frequency, will have more daily seats to London than San Francisco, which is not in the "5x a day club"). First, to say Miami is not a city full of investment bankers and entertainment personnal is a joke (random fact: Miami accounts for 8% of luxury car sales in America; third to LA''s 17% and NYC''s 14%; definition of luxury car is reatil transaction price of above $35,000...more than San Francisco, more than Washington, more than Boston, more than Chicago). Ask anyone in high-end retail (D&G, Gucci, etc.) what three markets are the most important to corner in the United States and they will tell you New York City, Los Angeles, and Miami. We''ve gone over this many times before, and I''ll gladly discuss it with you privately, but this isn''t the boards for that discussion. To put it simply: Miami is in many senses a third-world country in its class divison. If one is poor, they are poor. However, if one is rich, they are loaded to the brim, and Miamians are especially big on spending when it comes to luxury items, from cars, to clothes, to first class airline tickets. The middle class is miniscule. I doubt MIA remains AA''s most profitable hub thanks to bargain discount Y flyers.
Back to the topic, to London, NYC has about 25 daily flights; ORD has about 9 and I believe IAD does too, LAX has about 7, BOS is at 7 too, SFO has 5, and MIA will soon have 5 year-round. Though it is most interesting to note that Miami is the only one of those cities to have added capacity to London in the past two years. Miami does have the most capacity to Madrid, as you said, and is second only to New York City in capacity to Milan (which AZ will soon be upgrading to a 777; currently it is a 763 because they are retiring the MD11s and need the few left (I think it is 3 or 4) to fly to Asia).
MAH4546,
You are right about Miami consumer habits. But the difference between Miami, Chicago and Boston are largely cultural not economic. Rich latins love to show their money with designer clothes and cars, many of these people from points south wouldn''t buy things in their own countries, they buy in maimi for security reasons, they let loose in miami, where many have second homes. If a BMW cost $100,000 in Bogota or Caracas and its $45,000 in miami, there going to have it here. Here they feel safe in their BMW''s.
People in Chicago have North Michigan Ave as their Bal Harbor or Village of Merrick Park. Chicago is conservative and people don''t show there money. They buy Lincolns and Cadillacs. The bright cars are a tropical thing, how many yellow porsches are you going to see in Chicago? In Boston the Irish are very tight with their green but they have lots of of it and when they do spend it they go to Newberry street. North Michigan Ave. and Newberry ST. have the same collection of designers that Bal Harbor, village of merrick park, or my favorite florida shoppong address: Worth Ave. People in those cold northern places also don''t spend lots of money on clothes that don''t cover much since its COLD, they have to be practical with their wardrobes.
Floridians do buy many luxury cars but many are sold in Palm beach and Boca Raton where all those Bostonians & New Yorkers come when they move to florida, they buy BMW''s , you should see parking lot at the clubs in Palm Beach it like an autobahn with Range Rovers. Miami is like a Caribean island with A first world INFRASTRUCTURE attached a mainland, Florida.
You are right about Miami consumer habits. But the difference between Miami, Chicago and Boston are largely cultural not economic. Rich latins love to show their money with designer clothes and cars, many of these people from points south wouldn''t buy things in their own countries, they buy in maimi for security reasons, they let loose in miami, where many have second homes. If a BMW cost $100,000 in Bogota or Caracas and its $45,000 in miami, there going to have it here. Here they feel safe in their BMW''s.
People in Chicago have North Michigan Ave as their Bal Harbor or Village of Merrick Park. Chicago is conservative and people don''t show there money. They buy Lincolns and Cadillacs. The bright cars are a tropical thing, how many yellow porsches are you going to see in Chicago? In Boston the Irish are very tight with their green but they have lots of of it and when they do spend it they go to Newberry street. North Michigan Ave. and Newberry ST. have the same collection of designers that Bal Harbor, village of merrick park, or my favorite florida shoppong address: Worth Ave. People in those cold northern places also don''t spend lots of money on clothes that don''t cover much since its COLD, they have to be practical with their wardrobes.
Floridians do buy many luxury cars but many are sold in Palm beach and Boca Raton where all those Bostonians & New Yorkers come when they move to florida, they buy BMW''s , you should see parking lot at the clubs in Palm Beach it like an autobahn with Range Rovers. Miami is like a Caribean island with A first world INFRASTRUCTURE attached a mainland, Florida.
Why you two need to debate each other about your home towns is beyond me. Both Miami and New York are completely different both in business and culture. Both are better in one area over the other. Thats good because we don''t need 2 of either. The one thing that they have in common is that they both are of vital importance to AA. Now back to the topic, How about getting that MIA-SEA nonstop back again!!!
I feel MIA doesn''t do enough( or have enough to show) to attract airlines outside of the America and Europe. Africa is certainly within flying time from Miami, South African Airways proved that when they flew Cape Town - Miami NONSTOP DAILY. Royal Air Morac would do nicely. Being at the southern tip of the east coast, how about a south pacific air, ANZ or Qantas would do nicely. Certainly Asia would be great, how about Tokyo? I would think Singapore Airlines would be interested in flying to Miami, to connect to all northern Latin America. I think MIA has to get beyond " being the gateway to the Americas" and become where "the Americas meet the world".
Actually I live in West Palm Beach but to me Miami is another planet(I do speak Spanish, my mother is Colombian). Let face it, the kind of international operation common to MIA is vastly different then JFK, LAX, SFO, ORD, IAD or BOS. When most airports say International, they mean a widebody jet crossing an ocean( the Atlantic or the Pacific). MIA(from the Caribean or Northern Soiuth America) it means a 737-800 or an A320. In AA''s service it means a 737-800, 757 or A300. MIA is short haul international, those other folks are long-haul(or short long haul). Good luck MIA, I heard BA is moving it 2 daily flights to LGW.
