AAA ALPA Topic 8/31/07 - 9/06/07

[AAA73Pilot]

Nope. I'm usually right on the money. Just like this time. But you can wait until the end of September to see just how right I am.

Junebug, the problem is you never know when to quit. Any post, no matter how small or trivial, you always have to have the last say. Kind of like usa320. You 2 should start a thread and have at it. I wouldn't even comment on it. Just laugh my a$$ off watching.

And no, your not right on the money all the time. What is more interesting is your demeanor. As things come to a head you seem to get more agitated that people disagree with you. Just remember insulting someone never solves anything. Have seen this behavior in past reps. If you can't beat them with logic, assasinate their character. Call USAPA what you will, it's a player pre or post Nicolau. Especially post Nicolau in a big way.

 

[electricjet98]

Looks like a cat fight is brewing out east:

Council 90 Update
September 4, 2007



Fellow pilots,

Picketing is the first leg of the three pronged approach. Approximately a week ago your MEC unanimously approved a plan to kick off our parity struggle by picketing in PHX at USAirways Headquarters on September 6, 2007. On September 4, 2007, MEC members Rocco Spartano(PIT), John Brookman(PIT), Don Iorio(LGA), Sergio Fernandez(LGA), and Mike Swiatkowski(BOS), convened a special MEC conference call to cancel the event.

The CLT Representatives, the BOS F/O Representative, the MEC Chairman, the Strike Preparedness Committee, The Communication Committee and the Pilot to Pilot Committee Chairman, all advocated following through with the picketing event in PHX.

Mike Swiatowski (BOS), Bob Sauer (DCA), Don Baier (DCA) (by proxy), Don Iorio (LGA) Sergio Fernandez(LGA), Dave Ciabattoni (PHL)(by proxy), John Brookman (PIT)(by proxy), and Rocco Spartano (PIT) voted to cancel the event.

Garland Jones (BOS), Marshall Rogers (CLT), and Lance Svendsen (CLT) voted to attend the event.

Erik Rowe (PHL) did not attend the meeting, nor send proxy, leaving the PHL Captains without representation.

If you have any questions, please contact your representatives.

Fraternally,

Marshall Rogers Lance Svendsen Lyle Newman

[email protected] [email protected] [email protected]

 

[Junebug172]

Junebug, the problem is you never know when to quit.

But you guys know when to shut up, don't you?

Whatever.

 

[Junebug172]

And no, your not right on the money all the time. What is more interesting is your demeanor. As things come to a head you seem to get more agitated that people disagree with you. Just remember insulting someone never solves anything. Have seen this behavior in past reps. If you can't beat them with logic, assasinate their character. Call USAPA what you will, it's a player pre or post Nicolau. Especially post Nicolau in a big way.

Please don't lecture me with your righteous BS.

And agitated I am not. But I'm not about to sit by and let you guys spout your #### on this board with any challenge.

If you don't like it, leave.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Please don't lecture me with your righteous BS.

And agitated I am not. But I'm not about to sit by and let you guys spout your #### on this board with any challenge.

If you don't like it, leave.

Righteous? Just making an observation and what I have seen in the past.

They may spout it. But I have always respected everyone in my posts. Even with you. I disagree with a lot of what you say as gospel, but there are no absolutes. Plus there are many alternatives that have yet to be mentioned or discussed on this board.

BTW. I won't leave. This is fun watching ALPA squirm for a change.

addendum: Except for the Zoomie Scott Kirby. He I will insult. We have an "Abnormal jetstream" affecting our performance.

 

[Junebug172]

BTW. I won't leave. This is fun watching ALPA squirm for a change.

addendum: Except for the Zoomie Scott Kirby. He I will insult. We have an "Abnormal jetstream" affecting our performance.

Admittedly, you've made ALPA squirm to the point where they put together a knee-jerk committee headed by Rice.

Brilliant move - if you want to waste dues money.

But as I've said before, watch what comes out of the EC at their next meeting. If I'm wrong, I'll take a long ride in the corn field.

And for Kirby, we call him "Scooter" over here and he's in over his head. Your addendum is dead on.

And please don't ever compare me to USA320Pilot again. That's pretty low.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Junebug,

I find your emotion, insults, and derogatory comments interesting. If you are so sure of your self wy are you so angry? Hummmm?????

After last week's visitis by John Prater I do not believe the EC will forward the Nicolau Award to the Company. If they do then it is a slam dunk guarantee that USAPA will replace ALPA at US Airways with a new union imposed on the West pilots.

According to the AWA MEC Communications Committee Chairman this will slow down the joint contract talks by two year's, which the East pilots would support. Furthermore, Lee Seham has told USAPA he can get the Nicolau Award thrown out, but other attorney's say the list cannot be altered or thrown out. Regardless, this could create another drawn out lawsuit, which would make the total number of lawsuits that could affect the Nicolau Award grow to three.

Again, I have heard that AWA JNC member Doug Dotter has now discussed fences with East JNC member's and the Rice Committee is going to pressure the parties to accept an agreement that has fences, DOH furlough protection, and future merger protections all embodied within the new joint contract. Furthermore, the Rice Committee has indicated it will move forward if one MEC does not want to participate in a "realistic solution", according to Paul Rice.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Junebug172]

Junebug,

I find your emotion, insults, and derogatory comments interesting. If you are so sure of your self wy are you so angry? Hummmm?????

After last week's visitis by John Prater I do not believe the EC will forward the Nicolau Award to the Company. If they do then it is a slam dunk guarantee that USAPA will replace ALPA at US Airways with a new union imposed on the West pilots.

According to the AWA MEC Communications Committee Chairman this will slow down the joint contract talks by two year's, which the East pilots would support. Furthermore, Lee Seham has told USAPA he can get the Nicolau Award thrown out, but other attorney's say the list cannot be altered or thrown out. Regardless, this could create another drawn out lawsuit, which would make the total number of lawsuits that could affect the Nicolau Award grow to three.

Again, I have heard that AWA JNC member Doug Dotter has now discussed fences with East JNC member's and the Rice Committee is going to pressure the parties to accept an agreement that has fences, DOH furlough protection, and future merger protections all embodied within the new joint contract. Furthermore, the Rice Committee has indicated it will move forward if one MEC does not want to participate in a "realistic solution", according to Paul Rice.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Why do you guys think I'm angry. I've always been insulting and derogatory. I'll YELL IF I'M ANGRY.

Anyway, no fences. They'd be way to expensive to buy from the West. Instead, you can expect the easties to be bought out. You PHL reps see this coming and so does SB of USUKA.

And I wouldn't count on any "slam dunks" with USAPA. A few bucks thrown on the table by the company will put them to bed.

And speaking of a few bucks, the company seems to be more interested in getting this thing done. I'm wondering if something is brewing again.

Your man-love for the Rice Committee needs to be toned down. There is no movement there and I seriously doubt anything will get done in the next few days or the next meeting after that. And remember, recommendation mean squat. And, out of curiousity, with what is the Rice Committee going to use to apply "pressure?" Yupper - nada.

As for the lawsuits, the east's is all but dead and the MDA suit will be put to bed in due time. Not too worried about either.

And the only thing that ALPA is going to move forward on is having someone at the table come next negs. So, even if the east doesn't show up, there will be someone from ALPA representing them - guaranteed. The only saving grace is if the company cancels because the FOS cutover goes south - but we'll see.

And patience, one of us will be proven wrong by the end of the month.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Junebug,

I'm not angry either, just determined along with the vast majority of the US Airways pilots. The AWA MEC has isolated it self because the EC will not forward the list according to Prater, the Rice Committee will seek "realistic solutions", and Doug Parker wants a compromise.

If the AWA MEC needs to thoroughly understand the resolve of the majority of the East pilots and not continue down its present path or the likely US Airways pilot’s options will be:

1. Continue legal action on two fronts the throw out the list, one by the MDA pilots and one by the US Airways MEC, which could take many years to resolve.

2. The US Airways MEC never agreeing to a joint contract.

3. The Rice Committee and EC moving on and working with the East MEC to obtain a separate contract because of the West MEC not abiding by the two EC resolutions. Why? Every ALPA carrier wants this resolved because their new contract talks are being held hostage due to the US Airways and AWA pilots dispute.

4. And, the very real likelihood USAPA becomes the bargaining agent for the East and West pilots around the first of the year. This creates a whole new set of dynamics, but will certainly create West pilot "imposition", whether you like it or not.

Junebug, with all due respect, I suggest you and the AWA MEC look for realistic solutions to the issues facing our two pilot groups and to not simply state “final and bindingâ€￾; otherwise this dispute will drag on for a very long time. In the meantime, the two pilot groups will get “whip sawedâ€￾ with one group seeing all of the EMB-190, A340, and other aircraft growth and one group seeing all of the attrition based career expectation and subsequent pay raises.

would you venture to guess what that group this will be?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Name deleted by moderator.......folks remember not to use names in posts...time off is going to be given

 

[Junebug172]

I'm not angry either,

Never said you were.


The AWA MEC has isolated it self

You're f-ing kidding me. You guys have burned just about every bridge there is. You have no allies.


Doug Parker wants a compromise.

Parker wants a list and will probably buy the east's votes because it will be cheaper to do it that way.


If the AWA MEC needs to thoroughly understand the resolve of the majority of the East pilots

Ya, I've seen that resolve - throw whoever you need to under the bus. Your MEC's history doesn't lend itself to any sort of "resolve" so your threats ring hollow. Big YAWN!!! And your "Armageddon" history proves it. You guys will fold like a cheap suit.


1. Continue legal action on two fronts the throw out the list, one by the MDA pilots and one by the US Airways MEC, which could take many years to resolve.

I think I covered these thoroughly enough. The east's lawsuit is dead (even per USAPA's lawyers). The MDA lawsuit has no merit and, ironically, ALPA will use east testimony to trash it.


2. The US Airways MEC never agreeing to a joint contract.

$$ will talk. Even Bradford is worried about that.


3. The Rice Committee and EC moving on and working with the East MEC to obtain a separate contract because of the West MEC not abiding by the two EC resolutions.

Complete BS on your part. The only negotiating that will be done by ALPA is for the east when they don't show up at the table.


4. And, the very real likelihood USAPA becomes the bargaining agent for the East and West pilots around the first of the year.

Highly unlikely. Even if a vote is forced, USAPA will not gain the majority. But, we won't even get that far.


Junebug, with all due respect, I suggest you and the AWA MEC look for realistic solutions to the issues facing our two pilot groups and to not simply state “final and binding”;

But it is "final and binding." What the hell do you think arbitration is about?


otherwise this dispute will drag on for a very long time.

It'll be over sooner than you think.


In the meantime, the two pilot groups will get “whip sawed” with one group seeing all of the EMB-190

And losing all of their 737's. You can have all the 190's


XXXX, would you venture to guess what that group this will be?

More than likely you guys with the way your going.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Junebug,

Talking to you is like talking to a wall. You clearly do not understand the resolve and determination of the majority of US Airways pilots. You feel the need to insult people and organizations by purposely mispronouncing their names, which I believe gives you no creditability.

I recently read an email from an AWA pilot who has held ALPA positions. He said, “I give the East an "A" for initiative. Something we need to learn. Management has always shown us what initiative and offense are, and has won every time. Now the East is running with the ball and all we are doing is playing defense with our usual rhetoric and protest letters.â€￾

“The East has been on the offense since day one, while we have played defense. We got an arbitrator's decision the East didn't like and they took a seemingly lost cause and darned if they didn't get ALPA National to refuse to present it to management. Worse, they got ALPA National to try to push us into some kind of concession in the JNC to placate the East. Moreover, the East folks even have Mr. Parker telling us in his letter we should sit down together and 'work things out so everyone is satisfied',â€￾ he noted.

“If we continue to play defense while the East (and management) play offense, we will wake up to find they got at least some measure of what they wanted, while we shake our heads and send more letters of protest,â€￾ the AWA pilot said.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[exB717Flyer]

You clearly do not understand the resolve and determination of the majority of US Airways pilots.

You say that mantra over and over yet you are wrong as can be. We know your side is angry and lashing out the only way you know how. But we simply believe the law and policy are on our side which nullifies your determination. Wars are not won by determination but by strength. The law gives us our strength and (misdirected) anger gives you yours.

 

[electricjet98]

Actually, some in the west would consider that as good news. I've advocated to our MEC to not be blinded to compromise that benefits both sides, just to be vindictive or prove a point. However, compromise cuts both ways and I have seen little evidence of that from the east or your postings. Specifically, the east must rejoin constructive JNC discussions (as opposed to obstructive) and National must forward the list to Parker before "what if" speculations can actually progress to fruitful agreement.

Then what items are actually negotiable or subject to compromise must be decided. I've always supported the idea of some type of fence that allows a certain percentage (10% to 25%) of pilots during each bid to "transfer" to the other side, thereby guaranteeing that the majority of the open slots go to the pilots of that system.

Since the east apparently puts so much importance or "value" on the subject of fences and they will be the primary beneficiary, I have to ask, what does the east have to trade in return for fences? We must also consider that regarding the offer that was recently advanced by the company, ALPA National determined that 90% of the $122 million was going to the east group. And I also know that the west MEC is concerned about DFR lawsuits brought against them by the west pilots if they simply "give" anything to the east. So with all of that in mind, what do you have to offer that we would be interested in? Rather that having the east reap the vast majority of the gains from a joint contract caused by bringing them up to pay parity with the west, shouldn't the disparity be reduced by bring the west up to retirement parity with the east? If the pay increase experienced by the east versus the increase experienced by the west (differential) was calculated and an equivelant amount dedicated to the west pilot retirements, the 90% vs. 10% disparity would be greatly reduced and the west MEC would be able to show that they got something for the west pilots by trading fences for retirement, thereby decreasing the likelihood of DFR lawsuits. Of course, everyone would probably have to take a small hit in payrates to pay for the increased retirement for the west pilots, but it wouldn't have to be for any longer timespan than the timespan of the fences. When the fences end, the increased retirement for the west pilots also ends.

As far as furlough and future merger protections are concerned, I would think the the Nic award would determine this. But I'm sure the west JNC members would be more than happy to discuss them; after the east has rejoined JNC discussions and ALPA National has forwarded the list.

Lastly, your final statement, "Furthermore, the Rice Committee has indicated it will move forward if one MEC does not want to participate in a "realistic solution", according to Paul Rice." It would appear that the east's decision to withdraw from JNC discussions in violation of the Transition Agreement that was signed by LCC, east, west and National would put the ball in your court!

 

[aquagreen73s]

You say that mantra over and over yet you are wrong as can be. We know your side is angry and lashing out the only way you know how. But we simply believe the law and policy are on our side which nullifies your determination. Wars are not won by determination but by strength. The law gives us our strength and (misdirected) anger gives you yours.

We don't believe the law and policy are on our side, WE KNOW that the law is on our side. Otherwise, well said 717. Regardless of what happens with ALPA, some select West pilots already have a plan and a vehicle in place to ensure USAPA is the shortest lived union in RLA history. More information on that to follow...

 

[AAA73Pilot]

We don't believe the law and policy are on our side, WE KNOW that the law is on our side. Otherwise, well said 717. Regardless of what happens with ALPA, some select West pilots already have a plan and a vehicle in place to ensure USAPA is the shortest lived union in RLA history. More information on that to follow...

After the NMB steps in and calls for a representational election. Either way the election goes. If USAPA wins. You can do what you will. If you want to change to a different union that is your right to try. But going back to ALPA would be D.O.A. So unless you have a viable alternative, the only other option would be to have no representation. That is not a pretty sight either.

BTW. I don't know NMB rules and procedures, but I do know USAPA gets one shot per year. If it is elected, does that one shot only apply once a year for all alternatives? I don't know. Somehow I don't think a challenger alternative would be allowed to do anything for a year. I might be wrong but it is my opinion. Besides I am sure the NMB would not want to conduct an election again right after it just held one.

So patiently awaiting your alternative. Personally I don't care what we change to, so long as ALPA is removed once and for all. I have said in previous posts that I would consider all options. But for now USAPA is the only public alternative to ALPA. It has my complete support!