AA Non-Rev Payroll Deduction Charges, Proposed Change Possible.

[eolesen]

Sounds like a fuster kluck to me.  The company will have to set up a new department just to handle credit card refunds, and pissed off employees.  The way the system is now, is just fine.  If there are certain employees that keep coming up short, pull their flight benefits, and charge them interest - problem solved.  As far as D3 travelers go, pick the people on your list very carefully.

Actually, you've got it backward, Vort.

Right now, payroll deduct processing is the exception to how all other tickets get processed, and the company already had to carve out people just to manage that.

EVERY other ticket is pre-paid, and refunds for that are already largely automated.

Nobody complains about ZED being pre-paid. This shouldn't be be any different.

 

[Vortilon]

Actually, you've got it backward, Vort.

Right now, payroll deduct processing is the exception to how all other tickets get processed, and the company already had to carve out people just to manage that.

EVERY other ticket is pre-paid, and refunds for that are already largely automated.

Nobody complains about ZED being pre-paid. This shouldn't be be any different.

 
Sorry Erick, but most of us only use a ZED ticket a couple times a year at most.  Often times, it's just as a back up.  I have been on the receiving end of waiting for credit card refunds.  Credit card refunds often take way too long, and it just adds one more headache to an already stress-filled non-rev travel experience.

 

[WorldTraveler]

correct... and if it is automated, then AA should have no problem with charging AFTER it has been used even with a credit card on file.

and just like with payroll deductions if not more so, a credit card is not a permanent and endless form of payment.

Credit cards have limits both in terms of validity and the amount of money that can be charged.

It is ALWAYS a purchaser's responsibility to have a valid credit card on file when you have recurring charges.

this should be no different. Having to prepay for service that is standby and highly variable in terms of price - upgrades, flights, is stupid.

You penalize those who don't have the means to keep a valid source of funds for the company to obtain its pass money instead of making 200K honest and valid pass riders chase refunds to keep up with charges after the fact.

This scheme is nothing but a means by which AA can get more money from employees and many of them won't bother to try to keep up with the refunds after the fact.

Why do you think US used it? End state might end up with pay after you travel but that hasn't happened and pass system automation will always take a back seat to a million other integration projects that have a lot more priority.

 

[eolesen]

No matter how you want to argue it, the concept of "fly now pay later" requires exception handling, and that costs money.

It's been my experience that most airlines outside of the US issue an ID00 ticket for travel. That allows all of the normal processing to take place with regard to issuing a ticket, proper collection and calculation of taxes, etc.

-------------

When AA went with ticketless D2 travel back in '94 and eliminated the old yellowish Form 45 "Write Your Own" paper tickets, I headed up that project. One of the options we looked at was advance payment for all service fees, particularly for D3 to get rid of cases where employee paychecks were getting wiped out because of the fees and taxes. It obviously didn't happen, but that being during the Crandall days, we looked at every option (regardless if it was politically feasible) before just acting.

Sabre is the surviving Res & check-in system, so the need to change here isn't an integration issue. All of the associated infrastructure I put in place still exists (post-travel pricing, tax tables, and hand-off files for the billing processes).

The cost of building all of that was paid off over 15 years ago, but the cost of maintaining it continues.

Nonrev travel at AA used to drive about six heads -- one to manage all of the airport and industry mandate issues (policies, jumpseat agreements), one head just to handle abuse investigations, one head in interline to manage OA agreements and issue OA business pass requests for travel on AA, and another three heads to deal with all of the pricing and billing. Back then, the automation budget for maintaining the tables and jobs needed to do all of the billing was in the six figures for Sabre to maintain.

All-in, it was costing the company ~$250K to administer what is considered to be "free" travel.

If the company wants to look at saving that $250K (not adjusted for inflation...), then it's their call to do so. Moving towards the way US did it isn't an unusual way of managing employee travel. It's just different for the way that everyone else in North America is used to seeing it managed.

 

[jimntx]

I have heard the opposite. D3 will have a system set up where they will go and pay for their pass beforehand and completely separate from D2's. The passes will come from your bank but will keep you from being the banker.

Well, there's no point in discussing this really until we see the actual changes to the program.  "I heard/I think I read/My buddy at work told me" do not define corporate policy.  In fact when the source is as diaphanous as this seems to be, the resultant reality is usually very different.  Rather like the time a couple of years ago I was told with 100% certainty by another flight attendant that there was going to be another flight attendant furlough--"My Flight Service Manager who has contacts at Centreport told me."  Shortly thereafter the company began the hiring frenzy that has been going on for two years now, and they're about to start hiring some more flight attendants.
 
However, I doubt seriously that the company is going to do anything about non-rev travel that puts the burden of paying for it anywhere other than on the employee.  We are responsible for their behavior while using the passes.  Why would the company relieve us of the cost of the program?  Doesn't sound like the AA that I have come to know and love.  

 

[Vortilon]

No matter how you want to argue it, the concept of "fly now pay later" requires exception handling, and that costs money.

It's been my experience that most airlines outside of the US issue an ID00 ticket for travel. That allows all of the normal processing to take place with regard to issuing a ticket, proper collection and calculation of taxes, etc.

-------------

When AA went with ticketless D2 travel back in '94 and eliminated the old yellowish Form 45 "Write Your Own" paper tickets, I headed up that project. One of the options we looked at was advance payment for all service fees, particularly for D3 to get rid of cases where employee paychecks were getting wiped out because of the fees and taxes. It obviously didn't happen, but that being during the Crandall days, we looked at every option (regardless if it was politically feasible) before just acting.

Sabre is the surviving Res & check-in system, so the need to change here isn't an integration issue. All of the associated infrastructure I put in place still exists (post-travel pricing, tax tables, and hand-off files for the billing processes).

The cost of building all of that was paid off over 15 years ago, but the cost of maintaining it continues.

Nonrev travel at AA used to drive about six heads -- one to manage all of the airport and industry mandate issues (policies, jumpseat agreements), one head just to handle abuse investigations, one head in interline to manage OA agreements and issue OA business pass requests for travel on AA, and another three heads to deal with all of the pricing and billing. Back then, the automation budget for maintaining the tables and jobs needed to do all of the billing was in the six figures for Sabre to maintain.

All-in, it was costing the company ~$250K to administer what is considered to be "free" travel.

If the company wants to look at saving that $250K (not adjusted for inflation...), then it's their call to do so. Moving towards the way US did it isn't an unusual way of managing employee travel. It's just different for the way that everyone else in North America is used to seeing it managed.

 
 
Well, obviously this is near and dear to you, but $250k per year is a drop in the bucket to AA to manage 100.000 employees non rev travel.  If the company wanted to start saving money they could get rid of all those divisive, useless employee resource groups that 99% of the employees never use or get any benefit from.
 
Besides, what would the company do for the people that don't have a credit card?  I can see where there are going to be some issues.  The company knows that there will always be people that forget about their refunds, it's just another money making scheme from management to screw the employees.  The people that will end up getting screwed the most, are the most vunerable.  
 
What is the desired effect, keep the lower income employees from flying non rev? 

 

[1AA]

I wonder how much of the costs to manage the non-rev program include the A pass company travel? Even though we do not get charged for A pass travel it is still considered non revenue.

 

[pjirish317]

 

correct... and if it is automated, then AA should have no problem with charging AFTER it has been used even with a credit card on file.

and just like with payroll deductions if not more so, a credit card is not a permanent and endless form of payment.

Credit cards have limits both in terms of validity and the amount of money that can be charged.

It is ALWAYS a purchaser's responsibility to have a valid credit card on file when you have recurring charges.

this should be no different. Having to prepay for service that is standby and highly variable in terms of price - upgrades, flights, is stupid.

You penalize those who don't have the means to keep a valid source of funds for the company to obtain its pass money instead of making 200K honest and valid pass riders chase refunds to keep up with charges after the fact.

This scheme is nothing but a means by which AA can get more money from employees and many of them won't bother to try to keep up with the refunds after the fact.

Why do you think US used it? End state might end up with pay after you travel but that hasn't happened and pass system automation will always take a back seat to a million other integration projects that have a lot more priority.

 

US never had a pay first policy. At least not in my 20+ years here. We paid for our upgrades first, but we never had to have a CC on file to do that. Buddy passes were paid for by a CC, but it could have been the CC of the person needing the buddy pass. I have no idea where you get that US had ever done non-rev travel this way.

 

[Real tired]

Any Registered Guest travel at US is deducted directly from my paycheck.
 
As soon a you list, the deduction appears.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Some people may not want to hear it but DL does not have differing charges depending on the class, employees and retirees pay only for taxes, and for all practical purposes, DL has unlimited domestic and int'l passes. DL int'l travel charges for employees and retirees are only for taxes. Domestic is free.

DL does not require a credit card even for retirees who do not get a paycheck. They send a bill, you pay it, or your passes are cut.

Buddy passes are limited and paid for by CC which can be the employee's or the buddy's but it is the only prepaid travel.

I believe WN has a very generous pass program in terms of quantity and charges.

whether some want to hear the comparison, it is worth noting that you don't have to worry about all of the charges if you don't charge except what governments require that airlines collect.

 

[700UW]

This is about AA not fn DL.

Who cares, post it on your DL Diety board

 

[1AA]

This is about AA not fn DL.
Who cares, post it on your DL Diety board

In all fairness we are comparing travel policies at USAir and AA. Some posters said other airlines have similar rules. Delta boards by seniority, USAir had the same boarding policy before Parker changed it from the same way Delta currently does it.

 

[ChrisUS]

No matter how you want to argue it, the concept of "fly now pay later" requires exception handling, and that costs money.

It's been my experience that most airlines outside of the US issue an ID00 ticket for travel. That allows all of the normal processing to take place with regard to issuing a ticket, proper collection and calculation of taxes, etc.

-------------

When AA went with ticketless D2 travel back in '94 and eliminated the old yellowish Form 45 "Write Your Own" paper tickets, I headed up that project. One of the options we looked at was advance payment for all service fees, particularly for D3 to get rid of cases where employee paychecks were getting wiped out because of the fees and taxes. It obviously didn't happen, but that being during the Crandall days, we looked at every option (regardless if it was politically feasible) before just acting.

Sabre is the surviving Res & check-in system, so the need to change here isn't an integration issue. All of the associated infrastructure I put in place still exists (post-travel pricing, tax tables, and hand-off files for the billing processes).

The cost of building all of that was paid off over 15 years ago, but the cost of maintaining it continues.

Nonrev travel at AA used to drive about six heads -- one to manage all of the airport and industry mandate issues (policies, jumpseat agreements), one head just to handle abuse investigations, one head in interline to manage OA agreements and issue OA business pass requests for travel on AA, and another three heads to deal with all of the pricing and billing. Back then, the automation budget for maintaining the tables and jobs needed to do all of the billing was in the six figures for Sabre to maintain.

All-in, it was costing the company ~$250K to administer what is considered to be "free" travel.

If the company wants to look at saving that $250K (not adjusted for inflation...), then it's their call to do so. Moving towards the way US did it isn't an unusual way of managing employee travel. It's just different for the way that everyone else in North America is used to seeing it managed.

The way US does it now involves an upgrade bank.  They charge in increments of $10.00  If you list for F class, you need enough in your bank to cover that flight.  The amount gets deducted once you get on the flight in F class. If you wind up in coach, the bank is untouched.  Seems like a good idea to me. I don't recall the actual mileage levels but instead of AA's odd amount for upgrades, it's all in increments of $10.00  Like a 500 mile flight is 10.00  A 1,000 mile flight is 20.00 

 

[AirwAr]

The way US does it now involves an upgrade bank.  They charge in increments of $10.00  If you list for F class, you need enough in your bank to cover that flight.  The amount gets deducted once you get on the flight in F class. If you wind up in coach, the bank is untouched.  Seems like a good idea to me. I don't recall the actual mileage levels but instead of AA's odd amount for upgrades, it's all in increments of $10.00  Like a 500 mile flight is 10.00  A 1,000 mile flight is 20.00 

 
How in the world can this sound like a good idea to you?!?!?!   You have to hold money in an account...even if you don't end up using it.  How idiotic is this idea.  
 
As for CC payments...why in the world would AA want to incur the CC fees for non-rev travel.  Seems absolutely stupid!!!!!

 

[eolesen]

With AA's daily turnover, the CC fees would be negligible. Small businesses might pay 2-4% transaction fees, but when you do a couple million transactions per week, adding in the % of NRSA's which incur a service fee is little more than a rounding error.

Compare that to invoice billing for retirees... I'd guess the cost of printing out and mailing an invoice after the fact is costing at least $0.50 in terms of postage and materials.

I'm assuming international employees are still paying their fees up-front?