AA is up to something?

[Overspeed]

Recieved an email from a friend today. Accoring to one of the APFA negotiating team members, a FA TA is right around the corner. They are very close with the company.

I heard something about the APA getting close too? I didn't know they were still meeting?

 

[Overspeed]

You worry too much. With the mechanics they would not even extend the VBR to the line, the reason, "We cant afford to lose anymore line guys". That was two years ago, they blew through the recall list, in NY over 90% said "NO THANKS" to recall, they moved on, and they arent alone, every couple of months another guy I've worked along side of for decades decides he's had enough and quits. That may not seem like much but a lot of guys are just waiting to see what happens with the contract. Delta and UAL are reportedly seeing the same thing, not too many coming back. Mechanics are in the best position they've ever been in to take on the company, any company because the 3P shops are having an even harder time finding people to can fix things. Airplanes are pretty sophisticated machines, they have all sorts of systems, so if you can fix airplanes you can pretty much fix anything and airplanes arent the only machines out there that need maintenance. After the Pilgrims landed on Plymouth rock and they were asked what they needed their reply was "Send mechanics".

Mechanics may be pissed at their union, but they are pissed because they dont feel the union is putting enough pressure on the company, so if the company thinks they can use that sentiment against the Union they are wrong, the union is pretty much the only thing keeping the mechanics from sticking it up the companys behind.

Sorry to see the FAs are so pessimistic in light of the fact that that the companys revenues have soared.

Even if AA had a grand plan, I'm not worried, I had a life before AA and I'll have one after, just like all my peers who have already said goodbye to AA and all their Bullshitt.

Whatever...

 

[Rogallo]

I heard something about the APA getting close too? I didn't know they were still meeting?

Gee, isn't M&R meeting this week too??? The plan is all coming together...

 

[Overspeed]

You worry too much. With the mechanics they would not even extend the VBR to the line, the reason, "We cant afford to lose anymore line guys". That was two years ago, they blew through the recall list, in NY over 90% said "NO THANKS" to recall, they moved on, and they arent alone, every couple of months another guy I've worked along side of for decades decides he's had enough and quits. That may not seem like much but a lot of guys are just waiting to see what happens with the contract. Delta and UAL are reportedly seeing the same thing, not too many coming back. Mechanics are in the best position they've ever been in to take on the company, any company because the 3P shops are having an even harder time finding people to can fix things. Airplanes are pretty sophisticated machines, they have all sorts of systems, so if you can fix airplanes you can pretty much fix anything and airplanes arent the only machines out there that need maintenance. After the Pilgrims landed on Plymouth rock and they were asked what they needed their reply was "Send mechanics".

Mechanics may be pissed at their union, but they are pissed because they dont feel the union is putting enough pressure on the company, so if the company thinks they can use that sentiment against the Union they are wrong, the union is pretty much the only thing keeping the mechanics from sticking it up the companys behind.

Sorry to see the FAs are so pessimistic in light of the fact that that the companys revenues have soared.

Even if AA had a grand plan, I'm not worried, I had a life before AA and I'll have one after, just like all my peers who have already said goodbye to AA and all their Bullshitt.

Here is a good link for you. Now I know why you have "angry man" syndrome

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43725125/ns/today-today_health/

 

[Birdman]

Whatever...

Ok, so the pilgrims didn't say "send mechanics". Can you provide a link to some article, maybe from 2005, that refutes Bobs other assertions?

 

[PhatSappy]

Something is up with AA, could they possibly be plotting to bust the FA UNION and the Mechanics Union. Could they use the TWA FA's who I am sure would cross the picket line and pull from management groups to fly the backbone of the system. They continue to lose money the contacts are not done and now they are pushing to order aircraft.

Oh I doubt AA managers can plan a luncheon much less busting a union. What WE mechanics should do is sue the NMB for not releasing us.

 

[Overspeed]

Ok, so the pilgrims didn't say "send mechanics". Can you provide a link to some article, maybe from 2005, that refutes Bobs other assertions?

You worry too much. With the mechanics they would not even extend the VBR to the line, the reason, "We cant afford to lose anymore line guys". That was two years ago, they blew through the recall list, in NY over 90% said "NO THANKS" to recall, they moved on, and they arent alone, every couple of months another guy I've worked along side of for decades decides he's had enough and quits. That may not seem like much but a lot of guys are just waiting to see what happens with the contract. Delta and UAL are reportedly seeing the same thing, not too many coming back. Mechanics are in the best position they've ever been in to take on the company, any company because the 3P shops are having an even harder time finding people to can fix things. Airplanes are pretty sophisticated machines, they have all sorts of systems, so if you can fix airplanes you can pretty much fix anything and airplanes arent the only machines out there that need maintenance. After the Pilgrims landed on Plymouth rock and they were asked what they needed their reply was "Send mechanics".

The VBR was only offered to locations where there was a RIF in progress. The VBR was not stopped because, "...we can't afford to lose anymore Line guys." AA Line M&E VP said many times that AA would only use the VBR to prevent employees from being displaced from their present location only if another more senior AMT would take the VBR. The Line did not have a need to reduce HC at the time. There was no doubt others wanted the VBR, AA was in the driver's seat and the option was their's to extend the VBR. Apparently all those great high paying jobs were not paying more than the 12+ weeks of pay AA wasn't giving them through the VBR. Bob's assertion that people are itching to leave AA is not true or they would have left regardless.

To 90% plus turning down recall. If you were laid off since 10/2001 you have had 10 plus years to find another job and put in time. Most laid off in late 2001, early 2002 did not have much seniority. They probably have rightfully moved on and were not anywhere near topping out if they came back to AA.

As far as people waiting for the contract to be finalized, most of those people are ones that are ready to retire or leave anyway and are hedging their bets. Why not wait a bit and see if their departure can be made sweeter by a early out deal?

Most of those successful 3P businesses don't employ licensed AMTs and pay them a lot less with no benefits. Many 3P outfits use independent contractor AMTs from STS or PlaneTechs that work short term contracts. Sometimes higher hourly wage but you are only guaranteed several months of employment. Some info for you.

PEMCO

Certificated Mechanics: 160
Repairmen: 13
Non-Certificated Mechanics: 179
Total Employees: 429

ATS (formerly Goodrich)

Certificated Mechanics: 624
Repairmen: 14
Non-Certificated Mechanics: 305
Total Employees: 1237

ST Aero - SAT, TX

Certificated Mechanics: 277
Repairmen: 54
Non-Certificated Mechanics: 520
Total Employees: 1152

AAR IMC (ex-UA Base) - Run by ex-AA VP D. Martinez

Certificated Mechanics: 512
Repairmen: 15
Non-Certificated Mechanics: 105
Total Employees: 866

AAR FL - (formerly Avborn)

Certificated Mechanics: 226
Repairmen: 4
Non-Certificated Mechanics: 453
Total Employees: 679

Aeroman (new home of SWA C Checks and long time home of Jetblue A320)

Certificated Mechanics: 128
Repairmen: 0
Non-Certificated Mechanics: 1047
Total Employees: 1542

 

[Buck]

The VBR was only offered to locations where there was a RIF in progress. The VBR was not stopped because, "...we can't afford to lose anymore Line guys." AA Line M&E VP said many times that AA would only use the VBR to prevent employees from being displaced from their present location only if another more senior AMT would take the VBR. The Line did not have a need to reduce HC at the time. There was no doubt others wanted the VBR, AA was in the driver's seat and the option was their's to extend the VBR. Apparently all those great high paying jobs were not paying more than the 12+ weeks of pay AA wasn't giving them through the VBR. Bob's assertion that people are itching to leave AA is not true or they would have left regardless.

To 90% plus turning down recall. If you were laid off since 10/2001 you have had 10 plus years to find another job and put in time. Most laid off in late 2001, early 2002 did not have much seniority. They probably have rightfully moved on and were not anywhere near topping out if they came back to AA.

As far as people waiting for the contract to be finalized, most of those people are ones that are ready to retire or leave anyway and are hedging their bets. Why not wait a bit and see if their departure can be made sweeter by a early out deal?

Most of those successful 3P businesses don't employ licensed AMTs and pay them a lot less with no benefits. Many 3P outfits use independent contractor AMTs from STS or PlaneTechs that work short term contracts. Sometimes higher hourly wage but you are only guaranteed several months of employment. Some info for you.

PEMCO

Certificated Mechanics: 160
Repairmen: 13
Non-Certificated Mechanics: 179
Total Employees: 429

ATS (formerly Goodrich)

Certificated Mechanics: 624
Repairmen: 14
Non-Certificated Mechanics: 305
Total Employees: 1237

ST Aero - SAT, TX

Certificated Mechanics: 277
Repairmen: 54
Non-Certificated Mechanics: 520
Total Employees: 1152

AAR IMC (ex-UA Base) - Run by ex-AA VP D. Martinez

Certificated Mechanics: 512
Repairmen: 15
Non-Certificated Mechanics: 105
Total Employees: 866

AAR FL - (formerly Avborn)

Certificated Mechanics: 226
Repairmen: 4
Non-Certificated Mechanics: 453
Total Employees: 679

Aeroman (new home of SWA C Checks and long time home of Jetblue A320)

Certificated Mechanics: 128
Repairmen: 0
Non-Certificated Mechanics: 1047
Total Employees: 1542

You seem to be condoning this method of labor?

 

[Bob Owens]

The VBR was only offered to locations where there was a RIF in progress. The VBR was not stopped because, "...we can't afford to lose anymore Line guys." AA Line M&E VP said many times that AA would only use the VBR to prevent employees from being displaced from their present location only if another more senior AMT would take the VBR. The Line did not have a need to reduce HC at the time. There was no doubt others wanted the VBR, AA was in the driver's seat and the option was their's to extend the VBR. Apparently all those great high paying jobs were not paying more than the 12+ weeks of pay AA wasn't giving them through the VBR. Bob's assertion that people are itching to leave AA is not true or they would have left regardless.

The VBR was never offered to the line, The SIS was for the RIFs.

To 90% plus turning down recall. If you were laid off since 10/2001 you have had 10 plus years to find another job and put in time. Most laid off in late 2001, early 2002 did not have much seniority. They probably have rightfully moved on and were not anywhere near topping out if they came back to AA.

Pilots and FAs are coming back depite the fact they;ve been gone just as long. I beleieve most of our guys were laid off after 2003. We had a rif in 2001 at JFK but most of them were recalled shortly afterwards, part of the cash burn I guess. The point is they found better work and did not come back..

As far as people waiting for the contract to be finalized, most of those people are ones that are ready to retire or leave anyway and are hedging their bets. Why not wait a bit and see if their departure can be made sweeter by a early out deal?

First you say I'm wrong and that people arent itching to leave then you explain why people who are itching to leave stay.

Most of those successful 3P businesses don't employ licensed AMTs and pay them a lot less with no benefits. Many 3P outfits use independent contractor AMTs from STS or PlaneTechs that work short term contracts. Sometimes higher hourly wage but you are only guaranteed several months of employment. Some info for you.

Well I only worked for one, AAR, and they offered benefits, not flight but health and a DC pension but I didnt stick around long enough. Many of the guys at AA were hired away from AAR. Places like AAR were basically stepping stones to the majors, mechanics would sell themselves cheap as a means to get experience and move on to the majors. By the time they become proficient they are gone. They still have high turnover rates so the labor costs, despite the low wage, are not that low. In fact labor costs make up a much larger perecentage of their total operating costs than they do at the airlines, even AA where we do most of our OH in house. The thing is that now the majors arent as much of a good deal anymore. Those shops would rather hire A&Ps, but they cant get them, so they hire non-A&Ps, well those guys have no ties to the industry, no reason to stick around for low wages and they move on to other industries. The TWU and IBT are trying to organize these places but are having a difficult time because nobody sticks around long enough to get a vote. So these places go through on a daily basis what AA is going through on that C-check thats been stalled in the hangar for what, 30 extra days now? Getting your tickets is the first step to becomong a mechanic, AA used to rely on the chop shops and LCCs to provide the OJT that translates into experience where the mechanics could make their mistakes. They had a junior mechanic program where a Junior was to work along side a senior mech or under the guidance of a TCC, now they want to take guys with little or no experience and throw them out there as an AMT.

How many of those outfits that do not offer any benefits did you work for? By they way everyone offfers some benefits according to AA, look at your total value statement, they count SSI as part of your benefits package.

 

[Duke787]

The VBR was never offered to the line, The SIS was for the RIFs.


Pilots and FAs are coming back depite the fact they;ve been gone just as long. I beleieve most of our guys were laid off after 2003. We had a rif in 2001 at JFK but most of them were recalled shortly afterwards, part of the cash burn I guess. The point is they found better work and did not come back..



First you say I'm wrong and that people arent itching to leave then you explain why people who are itching to leave stay.



Well I only worked for one, AAR, and they offered benefits, not flight but health and a DC pension but I didnt stick around long enough. Many of the guys at AA were hired away from AAR. Places like AAR were basically stepping stones to the majors, mechanics would sell themselves cheap as a means to get experience and move on to the majors. By the time they become proficient they are gone. They still have high turnover rates so the labor costs, despite the low wage, are not that low. In fact labor costs make up a much larger perecentage of their total operating costs than they do at the airlines, even AA where we do most of our OH in house. The thing is that now the majors arent as much of a good deal anymore. Those shops would rather hire A&Ps, but they cant get them, so they hire non-A&Ps, well those guys have no ties to the industry, no reason to stick around for low wages and they move on to other industries. The TWU and IBT are trying to organize these places but are having a difficult time because nobody sticks around long enough to get a vote. So these places go through on a daily basis what AA is going through on that C-check thats been stalled in the hangar for what, 30 extra days now? Getting your tickets is the first step to becomong a mechanic, AA used to rely on the chop shops and LCCs to provide the OJT that translates into experience where the mechanics could make their mistakes. They had a junior mechanic program where a Junior was to work along side a senior mech or under the guidance of a TCC, now they want to take guys with little or no experience and throw them out there as an AMT.

How many of those outfits that do not offer any benefits did you work for? By they way everyone offfers some benefits according to AA, look at your total value statement, they count SSI as part of your benefits package.

You forgot another way to get on as a AMT at AA, you work the ramp, get your licenses, then just transfer into maint, because you are a member of the TWU and an employee. No experiance necessary.

 

[jersey777]

I spoke with a flight attendant who just returned from today's APFA roadshow here in JFK and he said that the APFA believes that new hire classes were slated to start in January and that the contract will be settled by then so new hires get a 401k match instead of a pension. That is based on the union's opinion and not on anything the company has relayed. They also said the contract is 95% complete with the sticking points being medical benefits, scheduled rest, and retirement...which I'm guessing is prefunding. They also stated that there are big changes coming to the "service" onboard the airplanes but were not specific. If anyone else has any info please confirm what I heard. Thanks.

 

[bigjets]

I spoke with a flight attendant who just returned from today's APFA roadshow here in JFK and he said that the APFA believes that new hire classes were slated to start in January and that the contract will be settled by then so new hires get a 401k match instead of a pension. That is based on the union's opinion and not on anything the company has relayed. They also said the contract is 95% complete with the sticking points being medical benefits, scheduled rest, and retirement...which I'm guessing is prefunding. They also stated that there are big changes coming to the "service" onboard the airplanes but were not specific. If anyone else has any info please confirm what I heard. Thanks.

Can you elaborate on "service"

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

Most of this thread smacks of extreme paranoia. Having all three unions in contract negotiations must be incredibly distracting for the airline. I doubt they want anything more than to get deals worked out and get back to focusing on, you know, the transportation business.

 

[damajagua]

I spoke with a flight attendant who just returned from today's APFA roadshow here in JFK and he said that the APFA believes that new hire classes were slated to start in January and that the contract will be settled by then so new hires get a 401k match instead of a pension. That is based on the union's opinion and not on anything the company has relayed. They also said the contract is 95% complete with the sticking points being medical benefits, scheduled rest, and retirement...which I'm guessing is prefunding. They also stated that there are big changes coming to the "service" onboard the airplanes but were not specific. If anyone else has any info please confirm what I heard. Thanks.

I went to the apfa road show @ JFK today. Nothing much was share then we already know.
The union told us that we will not be release or any union on the property. The state of the economy
is.....well we all know how the economy is. the last thing the government want is more people
out of jobs. So no threads of strike. Forget about it. It's not happening.
The union said 95% of the contract is complete. And yes the company wants to start hiring
early next year but it won't until we sign a new contract. This might be the only incentive the
company have to settle so they can start new hires. New hires will not have a pension
plan like the current employees. It will be a company match 401K. The union said that the hours
the company will be able to schedule us will increase but not to what AA wants. After leaving
the meeting it seems to me that the company will be getting some productivity from the
f/a's group. Laura Gladding also spoke about the current company financial situation and it is
not good. She said the company is refocusing it's self and we should see significant growth
in intenational flying. LAX will become our gateway to Asia. So expect additional flying out
our LAX.

 

[care2purchasefood?]

I went to the apfa road show @ JFK today. Nothing much was share then we already know.
The union told us that we will not be release or any union on the property. The state of the economy
is.....well we all know how the economy is. the last thing the government want is more people
out of jobs. So no threads of strike. Forget about it. It's not happening.
The union said 95% of the contract is complete. And yes the company wants to start hiring
early next year but it won't until we sign a new contract. This might be the only incentive the
company have to settle so they can start new hires. New hires will not have a pension
plan like the current employees. It will be a company match 401K. The union said that the hours
the company will be able to schedule us will increase but not to what AA wants. After leaving
the meeting it seems to me that the company will be getting some productivity from the
f/a's group. Laura Gladding also spoke about the current company financial situation and it is
not good. She said the company is refocusing it's self and we should see significant growth
in intenational flying. LAX will become our gateway to Asia. So expect additional flying out
our LAX.

More concessions and its LG handing them once again to the company. What happened to her saying, "This will be a zero concessions contract"? So much for that. I refuse to ratify any agreement with more concessions. We gave up way to much back in 2003 and I will not agree to ANYMORE!