AA in dilemma on when to replace aging fleet

[Nor'Easta]

Can we afford to wait that long with oil over $108/bbl?

Well, our stock closed today at 10.30 and futures look really bad for AMR. Gee, what perfect timing since all 3 unions will be in talks on May 1, 2008.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

Here's the problem as I see it: attitudes like this and the comment about the "thieves" in management are going to lead to a showdown that has the potential to shut the airline down and force it into bankruptcy. If that happens, tell me who wins? The labor force out of jobs, customers stranded; the only winners here are United, Continental, Southwest, etc.

There are two sides to every story, and what is not being said here is that during the years following 9/11 - when four other legacy carriers sought court protection - AA's management (working closely with labor, of course) guided the company away from that precipice. Is it possible that AMR is paying to retain this talent and keep AA on a profitable course? In a previous life I did some research on executive compensation. I'll dig that up and post some figures here. Makes what AA managers earn look like peanuts.

Bottom line: I want labor to do well in these negotiations. More than that, I want AA to do well as a company. I just think that a constructive, thoughtful approach will achieve a lot more, a lot faster than allegations of "thievery" and "blood money".

And no, I'm not AA management, just a frequent customer.

 

[FWAAA]

The 738's have certainly replaced the capacity of the retired 727's.

True, plus AA is still flying 50 more MD-80s than it was before the TWA asset purchase. And since many (if not most) of the old TWA mainline routes have been AX'ed or AE'ed, that capacity has certainly been replaced.

 

[North by Northwest]

Here's the problem as I see it: attitudes like this and the comment about the "thieves" in management are going to lead to a showdown that has the potential to shut the airline down and force it into bankruptcy. If that happens, tell me who wins? The labor force out of jobs, customers stranded; the only winners here are United, Continental, Southwest, etc.

There are two sides to every story, and what is not being said here is that during the years following 9/11 - when four other legacy carriers sought court protection - AA's management (working closely with labor, of course) guided the company away from that precipice. Is it possible that AMR is paying to retain this talent and keep AA on a profitable course? In a previous life I did some research on executive compensation. I'll dig that up and post some figures here. Makes what AA managers earn look like peanuts.

Bottom line: I want labor to do well in these negotiations. More than that, I want AA to do well as a company. I just think that a constructive, thoughtful approach will achieve a lot more, a lot faster than allegations of "thievery" and "blood money".

And no, I'm not AA management, just a frequent customer.

SAME story we've heard when every Union at every Airline is about to exercise it's right to demand a decent living standard. Executive compensation across the board in this country is waayyy out of wack. It has grown exponentially based on Greed and opportunities of Presidential interference on behalf of corporations. This process would NEVER/ has NEVER been tolerated in European aviation (which last I checked is far more profitable than U.S. carriers) I for one long for the days when ALL airline Unions supported each other...and WILD CAT strikes (as they STILL do in Europe,learned from us). As an industry, we should be embarrassed to have allowed Corporate THEIVES to infect this industry and take advantage of us in this manner. None have earned anywhere NEAR the level of compensation they receive. This cock-a-mamie swindle of "rewarding" amature CEOs for failure is nothing less than " a sucker is born everyday" and aviation employees have really been suckered.

So, therefore, it is my estimation that US carriers either pay to play or leave the industry. Which is what should have been demanded of U.S., Ual, Dal, AND NWA (for using it improperly). Healthy carriers whom have attempted to play by the rules have been treated unfairly by GREEDLY CEOs, and the advantage of operating a broken company (then rewarded for it)

So, do not point the finger at Airline employees, for with out them Americans would be back on the trains, buses, and clogged highways. Furthermore the days of Airline Slaves working for sub-par wages to support the thirst for cheap tickets is over. If you can't afford to pay the price STAY HOME. Not every person in the USA is rich or a business person...the pop. needs to RE LEARN that basic aspect of life.

Flying and Cheap tickets is NOT a right, contrary to what 80% of Americans now feel.

 

[ual777fan]

SAME story we've heard when every Union at every Airline is about to exercise it's right to demand a decent living standard. Executive compensation across the board in this country is waayyy out of wack. It has grown exponentially based on Greed and opportunities of Presidential interference on behalf of corporations. This process would NEVER/ has NEVER been tolerated in European aviation (which last I checked is far more profitable than U.S. carriers)

So, therefore, it is my estimation that US carriers either pay to play or leave the industry. Which is what should have been demanded of U.S., Ual, Dal, AND NWA (for using it improperly). Healthy carriers whom have attempted to play by the rules have been treated unfairly by GREEDLY CEOs, and the advantage of operating a broken company (then rewarded for it)

So, do not point the finger at Airline employees, for with out them Americans would be back on the trains, buses, and clogged highways. Furthermore the days of Airline Slaves working for sub-par wages to support the thirst for cheap tickets is over. If you can't afford to pay the price STAY HOME. Not every person in the USA is rich or a business person...the pop. needs to RE LEARN that basic aspect of life.

Flying and Cheap tickets is NOT a right, contrary to what 80% of Americans now feel.

Which until very recently was much more heavily regulated and competition was/is much less fierce than it is here in the United States. Comparing US aviation industry to its European counterpart is much like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Bob Owens]

Here's the problem as I see it: attitudes like this and the comment about the "thieves" in management are going to lead to a showdown that has the potential to shut the airline down and force it into bankruptcy. If that happens, tell me who wins? The labor force out of jobs, customers stranded; the only winners here are United, Continental, Southwest, etc.


And no, I'm not AA management, just a frequent customer.

Well if it comes down to paying a decent wage or going out of business them let them go out of business and let those that can pay and make money, like SWA and Continental, expand to fill the gap. That might mean higher fares for you though, so despite the fact that you are not management it does put you on their side.

There are two sides to every story, and what is not being said here is that during the years following 9/11 - when four other legacy carriers sought court protection - AA's management (working closely with labor, of course) guided the company away from that precipice.

What you left out is that the workers lost 25% of their pay in order to save the comany, so it wasnt management that "saved the company from bankruptcy" it was the workers and what do they have to show for it compared to those at carriers that actually went BK? Nothing, they have less vacation time, less holday pay and less sick time.

Is it possible that AMR is paying to retain this talent and keep AA on a profitable course? In a previous life I did some research on executive compensation. I'll dig that up and post some figures here. Makes what AA managers earn look like peanuts.

Keep it apples to apples. We only care what "airline managers make", and thats all airlines even the fly by nighters because thats what mangement likes to compare us to.

 

[North by Northwest]

Which until very recently was much more heavily regulated and competition was/is much less fierce than it is here in the United States. Comparing US aviation industry to its European counterpart is much like comparing apples to oranges.

If you call 15 (rounded up) years "recent". European carriers have been able to fly "intra Europe" city to city for decades now...i.e Ryan Air (check out that market cap.). So, your regulation argument does not hold water. Yes, you are right about comparing the two to apples and oranges. European carriers pay better, perform better, create higher profits, AND have better balance sheets. Moreover, they have consistently out performed US carriers in re-investment in product.

One thing they do lag US carriers in, is the massive level of corporate GREED that permeates the US aviation industry. It is obscene when you compare the two.


http://www.reason.com/news/show/36441.html

(a good read) http://books.google.com/books?id=M39hYxxh_...hl=en#PPA245,M1

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

i.e Ryan Air (check out that market cap.).

Ryanair is not a good example. I doubt many US airline workers would be willing to do the work (duties/work rules) that Ryanair employees do and also for the wages that Ryanair pays them.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

SAME story we've heard when every Union at every Airline is about to exercise it's right to demand a decent living standard. Executive compensation across the board in this country is waayyy out of wack. It has grown exponentially based on Greed and opportunities of Presidential interference on behalf of corporations. This process would NEVER/ has NEVER been tolerated in European aviation (which last I checked is far more profitable than U.S. carriers) I for one long for the days when ALL airline Unions supported each other...and WILD CAT strikes (as they STILL do in Europe,learned from us). As an industry, we should be embarrassed to have allowed Corporate THEIVES to infect this industry and take advantage of us in this manner. None have earned anywhere NEAR the level of compensation they receive. This cock-a-mamie swindle of "rewarding" amature CEOs for failure is nothing less than " a sucker is born everyday" and aviation employees have really been suckered.

So, therefore, it is my estimation that US carriers either pay to play or leave the industry. Which is what should have been demanded of U.S., Ual, Dal, AND NWA (for using it improperly). Healthy carriers whom have attempted to play by the rules have been treated unfairly by GREEDLY CEOs, and the advantage of operating a broken company (then rewarded for it)

So, do not point the finger at Airline employees, for with out them Americans would be back on the trains, buses, and clogged highways. Furthermore the days of Airline Slaves working for sub-par wages to support the thirst for cheap tickets is over. If you can't afford to pay the price STAY HOME. Not every person in the USA is rich or a business person...the pop. needs to RE LEARN that basic aspect of life.

Flying and Cheap tickets is NOT a right, contrary to what 80% of Americans now feel.

I have to ask: if you have such hostility toward your employer and pay/benefit schemes, why not change careers? If I felt the way you do about my job situation I'd update my resume and start looking.

Your arguments are based on emotion rather than reason. Lots of name calling, those greedy corporate thieves. How DARE they attempt to make a profit for the company. I'm not doing any finger pointing, but tell me you aren't actually suggesting that 1. you are slaves or 2. people should not buy tickets because they aren't paying enough money? Welcome to a competitive marketplace. AA (and other legacies) lost pricing power to Southwest, JetBlue and other LCCs years ago. AA fills the seats for what it can based on the competition they face.

Labor has the right to ask for pay and benefit increases, but I think you need to manage your expectations. With oil nearing $110 and recession looming, there's not going to be a lot to go around.

 

[North by Northwest]

I have to ask: if you have such hostility toward your employer and pay/benefit schemes, why not change careers? If I felt the way you do about my job situation I'd update my resume and start looking.

Your arguments are based on emotion rather than reason. Lots of name calling, those greedy corporate thieves. How DARE they attempt to make a profit for the company. I'm not doing any finger pointing, but tell me you aren't actually suggesting that 1. you are slaves or 2. people should not buy tickets because they aren't paying enough money? Welcome to a competitive marketplace. AA (and other legacies) lost pricing power to Southwest, JetBlue and other LCCs years ago. AA fills the seats for what it can based on the competition they face.

Labor has the right to ask for pay and benefit increases, but I think you need to manage your expectations. With oil nearing $110 and recession looming, there's not going to be a lot to go around.

For the same reasons this country was founded on when it became unhappy with being treated like a slave by England (they decided to stay and fight for what they had created). You are pretty presumptuous to dictate to me about being about MY emotional state, yet, you haven't produce one word of established fact.

I will only answer one other part of your nonsense.

Yes, Labor WILL dare to exercise it's Democratic right under the "Free Market" place, and if people don't like it, they should heed your advice and leave this FREE Republic. Labor doesn't have to ask for anything, Labor can tell you and corporate America this is how much we want otherwise we withhold our Labor. That's Capitalism.

Finally, I notice that you've ONCE again ignored commenting on the MASSIVE difference between Executive pay and $110 oil and Labor's Slave wages. Figure that out with out being so emotional and get back to us. Furthermore, I don't need your career counseling..how I handle my professional contentment has noting to do with ethical standards of Corporate GREED in aviation (do not assume anything about people you know very little about professionally, that's indicative of immaturity). You just concern yourself with how that price of oil is going to affect your frugal tickets.

 

[Hopeful]

I have to ask: if you have such hostility toward your employer and pay/benefit schemes, why not change careers? If I felt the way you do about my job situation I'd update my resume and start looking.

Your arguments are based on emotion rather than reason. Lots of name calling, those greedy corporate thieves. How DARE they attempt to make a profit for the company. I'm not doing any finger pointing, but tell me you aren't actually suggesting that 1. you are slaves or 2. people should not buy tickets because they aren't paying enough money? Welcome to a competitive marketplace. AA (and other legacies) lost pricing power to Southwest, JetBlue and other LCCs years ago. AA fills the seats for what it can based on the competition they face.

Labor has the right to ask for pay and benefit increases, but I think you need to manage your expectations. With oil nearing $110 and recession looming, there's not going to be a lot to go around.

FreqentFlierCA....
You last paragraph means more than you realize..

Do you understand that we have given back billions in concessions but the TOP management are guaranteed their "PUPS"...?????They are due another multimillion dollar payout soon because that's their "contract" with their upper management. It sounds to me like you subscribe to the logic that in order to keep the "TALENT" at AMR, we need to pay them comparably to their peers at other carriers...
But it's ok to continually tell the workforce we have to accept concessions OR ELSE...

And before we get into the issue of CEO pay, we all know that his/her pay is determined by the board of directors compensation committee which is made up of other top execuitves of other corporations...

So spare me the MARKET RATE argument..

In the corporate world, MARKET RATE is determined by people of the same or higher corporate levels..

 

[L1011Ret]

FreqentFlierCA....
You last paragraph means more than you realize..

Do you understand that we have given back billions in concessions but the TOP management are guaranteed their "PUPS"...?????They are due another multimillion dollar payout soon because that's their "contract" with their upper management. It sounds to me like you subscribe to the logic that in order to keep the "TALENT" at AMR, we need to pay them comparably to their peers at other carriers...
But it's ok to continually tell the workforce we have to accept concessions OR ELSE...

And before we get into the issue of CEO pay, we all know that his/her pay is determined by the board of directors compensation committee which is made up of other top execuitves of other corporations...

So spare me the MARKET RATE argument..

In the corporate world, MARKET RATE is determined by people of the same or higher corporate levels..

I think he is trying to say you are making yourself miserable with your angry arguments. Why not leave AA and go to where you might be less miserable?

 

[WingNaPrayer]

As a further punch in the gut to AA, this from the financial analysts wire:

A weaker macro backdrop also prompts downgrade of AMR on longer-term liquidity concerns & management's limited ability to respond to strategic challenges.

Today AA dropped to yet another 52 Week low and is now trading at about 9.67 having lost about 5 bucks in value in the past 4 weeks. We're quickly getting to that 8 dollar mark I previously predicted several months ago for AA to be at by Spring.

WingNaPrayer
Posted on: Jan 8 2008, 04:35 PM

I'm still betting AMR will be 8 bucks and some change by Spring. At this rate, could even be lower.

 

[Bob Owens]

I have to ask: if you have such hostility toward your employer and pay/benefit schemes, why not change careers? If I felt the way you do about my job situation I'd update my resume and start looking.

Your arguments are based on emotion rather than reason. Lots of name calling, those greedy corporate thieves. How DARE they attempt to make a profit for the company. I'm not doing any finger pointing, but tell me you aren't actually suggesting that 1. you are slaves or 2. people should not buy tickets because they aren't paying enough money? Welcome to a competitive marketplace. AA (and other legacies) lost pricing power to Southwest, JetBlue and other LCCs years ago. AA fills the seats for what it can based on the competition they face.

You make a lot of assumptions. Its like saying that Mercedes has to lower their price because there's a Hyundi dealer in town. Both are cars but they are different markets.

AA is filling seats from JFK to NRT, SWA fills seats from ISP to PVD. How does a cheap SWA fare from ISP to PVD affect the cost of a JFK to NRT? It doesnt, SWA is competeing with the car, the bus or the train, not with AA, the only way to get to NRT is to fly.

If the planes are full they have pricing power.

Labor has the right to ask for pay and benefit increases, but I think you need to manage your expectations. With oil nearing $110 and recession looming, there's not going to be a lot to go around.

With oil nearing $110 we must raise our expectations in order to put food on the table. You speak as if the airlines are the only ones affected by rising oil prices.

 

[Hopeful]

I think he is trying to say you are making yourself miserable with your angry arguments. Why not leave AA and go to where you might be less miserable?

Not the way I read it....The "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, LEAVE ARGUMENT" is always directed at employees...
Do you ever notice that, L1011?

Why do these posters always direct that statement at the workers and never at the greedy executives??????

Do you know why, L1011?

BECAUSE THE EXEC SHARE THE REWARDS ON THE BACKS OF THE WORKERS..

And I don't need anyone to advise me to leave and be less miserable..
I would rather stay on the job,, be miserable and do the job by the book!

Thats the best way I can thank the execs!