AA in dilemma on when to replace aging fleet

[ual777fan]

Since the 'CJet' is still just a 'paper airplane', can you really say for sure that it's seat/mile cost will be less than the 737-700/-800?

It's about as much of a paper airplane as the A350 is (if not less so). They have awarded engine and avionics contracts to various suppliers and development of this plane has been well underway for at least 5 years and was originally envisioned as EJet competition. Now it looks like a really viable DC9/-80/A319 replacement aircraft. The transmission in a turbine which would significantly improve engine efficiency, extensive use of composites (etc.) all help to contribute to the fuel savings. The board is expected to give the CJet the go ahead this summer with NWA as the likely launch customer (so say the rumors). Expect prototypes flying sometime around 2011 with the plane entering service around late 2012/early 2013.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

As a customer, I sincerely hope there isn't a strike since I have between 4-5 trips booked with AA right now. But you guys don't get paid what your worth so I would understand the rational for going out on the picket lines.

As for the fleet planning... A big order for the Bombardier CJets, you heard it hear first. They would offer between a 40-50% fuel savings over the current MD80 fleet and a substantial savings over the 737-700 that Southwest uses. Instant competitive advantage.

#################################################################

"EXACTLY" ...ual777fan !!!!!!!!!!!

The Customers..."LOVE" these new EJets(Embraer), and a bit later on, the CJets(Bombardier)

They NEED to give APA a LOT of what they want, in Exchange for language for the EJets.
(They could give the EJet flying to Junior AA pilots, with an IRON CLAD "flow through(UP)agreement")

Some of these different models have 10/12 F-Class seats, and 80+ Y seats in the rear. GREAT fuel savings,.
AA has a CRAP load of Embraer micro Jets, that I'm sure Embraer would take back, for a Large Order of EJets, to keep AA from buying the CJets from Bombardier(Best to throw both a "bone")

There are a LOT of AA stations, that could become A/E stations, using the EJets.
BDL/PHL/BWI are perfect examples. It's NOT like the TWU is'nt aware of that sort of possibility, ...because AA did it in upstate NY, when they "wacked out" ALB/SYR/ROC/BUF !

The WEAK, SPINELESS TWU would "take it in the seat" while AA "tweaked" the Contract language that would INCREASE the number of flights needed to force AA to staff a station with "AA" employees.

AA hasn't really been able to do that, BEFORE the EJet, but I'm puzzled as to why they haven't ACTED YET !

CRANDALL said back in the early 90's, that "AA" would concentrate on LONG haul, and International flying ONLY.
BUT, he knew that the HUBS need to be FED, he just didn't "specifically" say that most of the Domestic would be flown by A/E.

Another Reason...EAGLE will "NEVER get spun off" !!

 

[Gautier84]

Actually, AA was one of the least profitable airlines last year, compared to the other USA legacy airlines. And this year is shaping up to be another loser, given that jetA is now over $3/gal.

What do they all have in common? With the exception of Continental, recent bankruptcies by which they slashed pay rates, walked away from unsecured debt, in many cases froze and in some cases terminated already earned pension plans. And CO had two bankruptcies earlier in which it slashed pay and benefits, so their recent concessions were not as large as many of the others. Since they were starting out at lower pay rates, CO employees' recent concessions didn't have to be as large.

While AA employees took it on the chin in the 2003 concessions, the pay cuts are in most cases less severe than they were at the bankrupt airlines.

yes, and if AA is not profitable, one of the reasons is because of low cost companies, which do better earnings than regular companies, and the competition is fierce for the world airliners.

 

[Gautier84]

You are just a number. They want you to do it all with nothing. They reap the benefits off of your hard work and then tell you to eat cake.
You will continue to subsidize the cost of fuel by taking pay and benefit concessions. You will have no voice in the worthless union you must pay dues to.
Save yourself from the airline industry get out now especially if you are new to it.
The benefits sux and so do the people running the place. They dont care about you or your inability to make ends meet on the paultry salary they pay.
I have been in this industry since 1986 and it has been a continual death spiral. The only thing that ever changes is the color on that tail. 😉

I think you are right, working today in the airline industry is far from easy regarding pay and work. The only true good thing in working in an airliner is maybe the air fares which you can get at a quite low fare

 

[eolesen]

I don't believe you can accurately state what is less severe if you are not employed and taking pay cuts from this company.
Taking it on the chin-right. Attitudes like yours is why I could really care less if any flight leaves.

You don't have to be an employee to do the simple math... Look at pre-cut and post-cut wages & benefits.

AA's employees were and still are babes in the woods when it comes to paycuts. They think they had it sooo rough. They got slapped on the ass while the rest of the industry got gang raped.

And attitudes like comatose's are why I've been flying on oneworld partner carriers as much as possible. I just earned Platinum for 2009 and it's only the first week of March, yet only two of my flights were on AA metal. The rest were on IB, BA, CX, and QF.... and I plan to keep it that way. Might as well enjoy real service and still get the miles to burn on AA when I need a domestic award...

 

[LGA Fleet Service]

AA's employees were and still are babes in the woods when it comes to paycuts. They think they had it sooo rough. They got slapped on the ass while the rest of the industry got gang raped.

I seem to recall management trumpeting their commitment to "Charting a different course" and "Staying in control of our destiny" when they fought tooth and nail to avoid filing chapter 11.Now fast forward five years and their strategy of "Staying in control" has them between a rock and a hard place.

It was the ego of management that kept them from exploiting the chapter 11 process as virtually every other airline has done over the past five years.Now that ego is sinking this ship, and instead of pumping with us,management prints materials to encourage us on one hand, while berating us for keeping them at a labor cost disadvantage on the other.

I wonder how this airline used to run before we got overrun by MBA toting aviation consultants who spout buzz words and view forming committees as workable solutions to real operation level problems.


How do you think Crandall would have reacted to placing Number Eight in Customer Satisfaction? By forming JLT's at the local level? By touting 'Customer Experience Leadership'? No, he would have banged heads together and taken steps to ensure that failure that dismal was not replicated.

Here at LGA , in a stunning display of both CEL and PLI we managed to bring back a former administrative CSM as a highly paid consultant in order to construct the shift bid for ramp service, as his replacement hasn't quite gotten the hang of constructing a workable bid six months into the job.

So, our intrepid consultant devises a bid that is predicated on sunny skies,zero delays and twenty more full time heads on afternoons than we actually have here.


There are twenty full time holes on the PM bid now, so when you're waiting to be parked,are given a filthy airplane to board or wait over an hour for your bags, remember at American Airlines, we're number Eight in customer satisfaction!

And when we hit dead last, we'll form another three letter team to ponder and puzzle out why this airline has gone absolutely down the toilet. :blink:

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

I think you are right, working today in the airline industry is far from easy regarding pay and work. The only true good thing in working in an airliner is maybe the air fares which you can get at a quite low fare

You ride free with 5 years or more. The problem is that fares are so low today it is impossible to non rev. What good are the benefits if you cant use them. You are better off buying a ticket on Jet Blue and travel in your underware.

 

[North by Northwest]

You're missing the point: reducing costs is the name of the game here, and while the capital expenditure for the new planes will be large, the long-term savings will be greater. What does this mean practically? More profits for AMR, which means a larger pie to be shared with the labor force.

As a customer and fan off AA, I'm truly sorry that you won't get a big payday in this round of negotiations. You happen to work in a very competitive industry with low profit margins (if any) and extremely high costs.

Initiatives like fleet replacement (again, while costly up front) will lead to sustained profitability for the company and secure pay and benefits for the labor force.

My God Sir, what rock have you been under for the last 8 years? Real wages have steadily decreased for the last 8 years. The "secure pay and benefits" you speak of apply ONLY to THIEVES at the top.

Aviation Labour has subsidize the American public's rip off for cheap tickets for the last 20 years. What we NEED to do is for National Unions and STOP the entire air system UNTIL we have decent wages. Then we can see how supportive crooked Bankruptcy judges and ignorant Presidents like it.

 

[ual777fan]

#################################################################

"EXACTLY" ...ual777fan !!!!!!!!!!!

The Customers..."LOVE" these new EJets(Embraer), and a bit later on, the CJets(Bombardier)

They NEED to give APA a LOT of what they want, in Exchange for language for the EJets.
(They could give the EJet flying to Junior AA pilots, with an IRON CLAD "flow through(UP)agreement")

Some of these different models have 10/12 F-Class seats, and 80+ Y seats in the rear. GREAT fuel savings,.
AA has a CRAP load of Embraer micro Jets, that I'm sure Embraer would take back, for a Large Order of EJets, to keep AA from buying the CJets from Bombardier(Best to throw both a "bone")

There are a LOT of AA stations, that could become A/E stations, using the EJets.
BDL/PHL/BWI are perfect examples. It's NOT like the TWU is'nt aware of that sort of possibility, ...because AA did it in upstate NY, when they "wacked out" ALB/SYR/ROC/BUF !

The WEAK, SPINELESS TWU would "take it in the seat" while AA "tweaked" the Contract language that would INCREASE the number of flights needed to force AA to staff a station with "AA" employees.

AA hasn't really been able to do that, BEFORE the EJet, but I'm puzzled as to why they haven't ACTED YET !

CRANDALL said back in the early 90's, that "AA" would concentrate on LONG haul, and International flying ONLY.
BUT, he knew that the HUBS need to be FED, he just didn't "specifically" say that most of the Domestic would be flown by A/E.

Another Reason...EAGLE will "NEVER get spun off" !!

The CJets (100-130 passengers) are significantly larger than the EJets (70-100 passengers), not to mention with their significantly more advanced engine technology; they are quieter, pollute less, and burn less fuel.

I doubt Eagle will become the defacto feeder for AA's international operations especially with the pilot scope clause, which I doubt the APA will bend to. Load factors on mainline flights are 80%+ all year round. Any reduction in capacity (which a move to eagle would provide) would also start to seriously reduce AMR's revenues. I've never understood the massive push by US carriers to move flying to regional partners since the CASM for those RJ's is significantly higher than the mainline CASM. With oil prices heading towards the exosphere, I would predict you will see many of those pencil jets heading for the desert to be replaced by something significantly larger and more fuel efficient (i.e. mainline flying).

Provided AA can come to some agreement with scope and the pilots I could see AA making the following moves.
1) A large CJet order to replace the F100's (already retired), MD-80's and to move some Eagle flying back to mainline.

2) A large 737-800 order to replace the capacity lost when the 727's were retired and MD-80's. How large is going to be dependent on how long it takes Boeing and Airbus to get their NG737/A320's on the drawing board and in production. 2015 seems like a long shot at this point (especially with the widebody throwdown that is going on).

3) A large Q400 order for Eagle. The planes are quiet, smooth, safe, almost as fast as the C700's on shorter flights and burn a whole lot less gas than the CRJ's do.

4) Eventually placing an 787 order to start replacing the A300's. The 783 looks like the perfect candidate for such a replacement as it carries about ~300 and should do a better job with cargo than the 767 since its a wider aircraft. Also I could see an order placed to start phasing out the 762's with the 788 on domestic routes considering the plane's age. I don't see AA making a large order to start replace 763ER's though.

5) As for 763 replacements... I think you will see AA picking up some 772ER's cheap off the used market or getting a great deal from Boeing on the planes to replace the 763ER's. The 763ER just isn't going to cut it in what has become a hyper competitive European market (more competitive with amenities than pricing) and the 777 will allow AA to offer a competitive 3-Class product without waiting in the massive line that has formed for either the A350XRB or the 787 Dreamliner.

 

[700UW]

2) A large 737-800 order to replace the 727's and MD-80's. How large is going to be dependent on how long it takes Boeing and Airbus to get their NG737/A320's on the drawing board and in production. 2015 seems like a long shot at this point (especially with the widebody throwdown that is going on).

What 727s?

AA retired them a few years back.

 

[ual777fan]

What 727s?

AA retired them a few years back.

I should have said to replace some of the capacity that was lost when the 727's were retired.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

The board is expected to give the CJet the go ahead this summer with NWA as the likely launch customer (so say the rumors). Expect prototypes flying sometime around 2011 with the plane entering service around late 2012/early 2013.

CSeries already approved by Bombardier BOD (Feb. 22, 2008).
Entry into service ~2013.

Press Release Here
Bombardier announced today that its Board of Directors has granted Bombardier Aerospace the authority to offer formal sales proposals of the optimized CSeries aircraft family to airline customers. The aircraft will incorporate the latest technology available to produce the economic, performance, environmental and passenger-oriented improvements demanded by airline customers for the next quarter century. Entry into service is scheduled for 2013.

 

[jimntx]

Entry into service is scheduled for 2013.

Can we afford to wait that long with oil over $108/bbl?

 

[ual777fan]

CSeries already approved by Bombardier BOD (Feb. 22, 2008).
Entry into service ~2013.

Press Release Here
Bombardier announced today that its Board of Directors has granted Bombardier Aerospace the authority to offer formal sales proposals of the optimized CSeries aircraft family to airline customers. The aircraft will incorporate the latest technology available to produce the economic, performance, environmental and passenger-oriented improvements demanded by airline customers for the next quarter century. Entry into service is scheduled for 2013.

Well I hit the road for a couple of weeks and that's when they finally decide to approve it... Thanks Bombadier :down: It only took you guys 3 years to make the right decision <_<

 

[formeraa]

I should have said to replace some of the capacity that was lost when the 727's were retired.

The 738's have certainly replaced the capacity of the retired 727's.