AA Double Dip

[V.O. Reason]

I for one hope there are no layoffs if the feds come through with help which is already in the works.
From what I’m reading from Washington they are making it clear these Financial Helps are to be for the employees and not to benefit the shareholders so it appears there will be some restrictions on this.

 

[swamt]

Playing hardball might work, but I'll bet a share of AAL at today's prices that the deal on the table right now will probably be the best deal on the table for any airline in 2020.

Playing hardball (if you are referring to labor playing hardball) will get the unions nothing in these times of crisis. BUT, they could be very stern on how they would accept something as long as it is temp., with snap back clauses after meeting certain attainable goals set. As well as language included to "return" back to the contract as written today at some point in the future. NOT just language to just return back to the table to talk about it. We all know good and well how that will end up...

 

[swamt]

I for one hope there are no layoffs if the feds come through with help which is already in the works.
From what I’m reading from Washington they are making it clear these Financial Helps are to be for the employees and not to benefit the shareholders so it appears there will be some restrictions on this.

Yes and just heard the new airline assistance will be 58 billion now instead of 50 billion.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Playing hardball (if you are referring to labor playing hardball) will get the unions nothing in these times of crisis. BUT, they could be very stern on how they would accept something as long as it is temp., with snap back clauses after meeting certain attainable goals set. As well as language included to "return" back to the contract as written today at some point in the future. NOT just language to just return back to the table to talk about it. We all know good and well how that will end up...

That is all I am saying.

Just don't let the bastards rope you into long term concessions for a short term crisis, not again.

 

[jack f]

So what eolesen, they should take permanent cuts for a temporary situation?

Nuh uh!!

They have already been doing that for YEARS.

Based on?

I know American Airlines is a victim of it's own debt but from what I have read even analyst don't know for sure how this will effect the airlines, how deep the cuts will go, or if they will even be significant.

If you have something to substantiate your claim please share.

Maybe. Maybe not. I think the economy will bounce back and even see a surge when this thing blows over. Maybe as soon as May.

At any rate if American wants concessions this time I say MAKE them take it through bankruptcy, don't GIVE them anything. Last thing the employees should do is allow the executives another 2 bites at the apple because the cost last time was far too damn high and long term.[/Q

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

jack f why would you quote me and not say anything?

 

[jack f]

Any Airline that asks for and gets help should be restricted, by law, from any Stock Buy backs for at least 10 years (if not forever). AA has bought back $15B of it's own stock in the last 6 years and has incurred $30B of debt. Would it need help if help if it had some or most of that $15B.
Also, any help should also include a demand (written into the law) that change fees must go down.

 

[jack f]

jack f why would you quote me and not say anything?

sorry hit the wrong key

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Any Airline that asks for and gets help should be restricted, by law, from any Stock Buy backs for at least 10 years (if not forever). AA has bought back $15B of it's own stock in the last 6 years and has incurred $30B of debt. Would it need help if help if it had some or most of that $15B.
Also, any help should also include a demand (written into the law) that change fees must go down.

I don't know. They took bankruptcy with 4 billion in liquid assets.

I don't support the government telling the airlines what they can and can't charge. That is a bit too socialist for my taste. The way I see it Airlines have a hard enough time surviving (look at all the ones that no longer exist) without the government cutting them off from paths of revenue.

If the government really wants to help the airlines they should do what they can to mitigate the cost of FAA certified (licensed) parts. Seriously, when a piece of U shaped plastic cost 1000 dollars a foot when in the "real world" it would cost $2 for 10 feet that is a problem.

You think the companies supplying these parts are paying $1000 a foot wages? I doubt it.

All airlines ever want to talk about is the price of fuel and wages but you never hear them complain about the excessive prices of parts. The price of that 12 inches of plastic would cover the wages of a Fleet Service Clerk for 47 hours (at the time).

So to recap.... paying $1000 for 12 inches of cheap ass, thin plastic is acceptable.
Paying the same price for 47 hours of labor is considered a burden.

Do you see the problem here?

 

[jack f]

I don't know. They took bankruptcy with 4 billion in liquid assets.

I don't support the government telling the airlines what they can and can't charge. That is a bit too socialist for my taste. The way I see it Airlines have a hard enough time surviving (look at all the ones that no longer exist) without the government cutting them off from paths of revenue.

If the government really wants to help the airlines they should do what they can to mitigate the cost of FAA certified (licensed) parts. Seriously, when a piece of U shaped plastic cost 1000 dollars a foot when in the "real world" it would cost $2 for 10 feet that is a problem.

You think the companies supplying these parts are paying $1000 a foot wages? I doubt it.

All airlines ever want to talk about is the price of fuel and wages but you never hear them complain about the excessive prices of parts. The price of that 12 inches of plastic would cover the wages of a Fleet Service Clerk for 47 hours (at the time).

So to recap.... paying $1000 for 12 inches of cheap ass, thin plastic is acceptable.
Paying the same price for 47 hours of labor is considered a burden.

Do you see the problem here?

Not sure I understand all the supply stuff but I'll take your word for it. I'm just a passenger. How about make them remove one row from every coach section of every plane and give the poor folks in coach another inch of leg room.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Not sure I understand all the supply stuff but I'll take your word for it. I'm just a passenger. How about make them remove one row from every coach section of every plane and give the poor folks in coach another inch of leg room.

American Airlines already tried that with their "more room in coach" initiative. That works well when passenger demand is low (and taking seats out not being used is a great way to save weight), not so much when demand is high.

I would take it with a grain of salt but Wikipedia (link below) says American Airlines has 949 aircraft. So one row at a minimum is going to be 6 seats. So if you do the math that is ‭5,694‬ seats. Keep in mind many aircraft have more than 6 seats across, this is the best case scenario with the lowest amount of lost seats.

American Airlines has an average of 6,700 (link for where I sourced that information below) departures a day. Looking at it that way that would be (6700 X 6) ‭40,200 per day or ‭(40,200 X 365) 14,673,000‬ per year. So taking that one row out means there would be over 14.5 MILLION less available seats per year (again, at a minimum, the reality is it would actually be far more than that).

As a passenger, is the loss in capacity and the higher price American Airlines would have to charge worth that one inch?

That is a question the executives of American Airlines have to deal with everyday.

https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_fleet

 

[eolesen]

It was two rows per narrowbody, not one.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

It was two rows per narrowbody, not one.

Not sure I understand all the supply stuff but I'll take your word for it. I'm just a passenger. How about make them remove one row from every coach section of every plane and give the poor folks in coach another inch of leg room.

Irrelevant.

The poster stated ONE row.

I ran the calculations based on HIS statement to drive home the result of what he was asking for.

 

[eolesen]

Sorry to be the one to break it to you, but your math is irrelevant, Skippy.

I was part of the non-disclosure group for MRTC way back when.... Over-wing exits are a fixed point on the airplane, and can't be moved. You can't remove half a row, so you need to remove a row on each side of the over wing exits to try and do what he is asking for..

The exception there would be if there's already expanded pitch seating ahead of the exit rows, similar to what United did with Economy Plus, but then you're devaluing the ability to upsell the extra legroom...

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Sorry to be the one to break it to you, but your math is irrelevant, Skippy.

I was part of the non-disclosure group for MRTC way back when.... Over-wing exits are a fixed point on the airplane, and can't be moved. You can't remove half a row, so you need to remove a row on each side of the over wing exits to try and do what he is asking for..

The exception there would be if there's already expanded pitch seating ahead of the exit rows, similar to what United did with Economy Plus, but then you're devaluing the ability to upsell the extra legroom...

You have a reading comprehension problem eolsen.

I will say it again.

I ran the calculations based on HIS statement to drive home the result of what he was asking for.

I did not base it off real world implementation but based it on how he framed the question which was the removal of ONE seat. I even highlighted that portion of his statement in red for your benefit but I guess that was a futile effort on my part.

That is twice I have told you that.

Do we need a round 3 or do you get it this time?

Stop trying to one up people all the time because it reeks of an inferiority complex. It's like you have this need to prove to the forum how much smarter you are than everyone else.