A&e's New Series Airline

[skycruiser]

BTW - nice financial results over there at CO. Keep that nose in the air and it's harder to see that their "profit" was from the sale of some assets. It strikes me as odd that the greyhound clientel are able to help airlines like Southwest or Airtran to achieve a profit, but the classier people don't seem to be willing to pay the other airlines enought to cover their costs.

Your comparison of Southwest/AirTran to CAL has no base since the three airlines offer to very different products.
A reason for higher cost is crew pay and although SWA would like folks to believe that all is fine on the employee relations front it actually is not. The flight attendants have been in negotiations for twenty months and despite the company's boasting of profits year after year (not to mention a Q4 profit of 57%). These 7200 employees make an average of 24K a year with starting pay at 14K yet management has been stalling on negotiations issues of pay, pension, and retirement insurance.
At CAL yes they did furlough employees but no one took a pay cut, contract negotiations are going forward, hourly employees are getting their planned pay increases and employees are being recalled. Oh yeah, did I mention that in spite of all that CAL made, yet AGAIN, Fortune's top 100 places to work list.

 

[KCFlyer]

Your comparison of Southwest/AirTran to CAL has no base since the three airlines offer to very different products.
A reason for higher cost is crew pay and although SWA would like folks to believe that all is fine on the employee relations front it actually is not. The flight attendants have been in negotiations for twenty months and despite the company's boasting of profits year after year (not to mention a Q4 profit of 57%). These 7200 employees make an average of 24K a year with starting pay at 14K yet management has been stalling on negotiations issues of pay, pension, and retirement insurance.
At CAL yes they did furlough employees but no one took a pay cut, contract negotiations are going forward, hourly employees are getting their planned pay increases and employees are being recalled. Oh yeah, did I mention that in spite of all that CAL made, yet AGAIN, Fortune's top 100 places to work list.

Actually, I was replying to this:

. Don't get me wrong for those of you that love LCC's. They serve a purpose, and they have a product that alot of Americans want. But Mainline carriers like CO offer so much more....and it obviously costs us more in the process.

YOu know what you get on CO from, lets say DFW-CLE or EWR-MCI...an RJ...no first class, no legroom, no meal service. I hardly see what one gets for the extra money on CO.

And did you not read where LUV decided NOT to pay Forbes to be in the "100 best companies to work for in America" this year? Maybe CO could have furloughed a couple less employees had they done likewise.

YOu are in on the FA discussions? You mention a lot of "facts", one of them being that the company is stalling on negotiations of pay pension and retirement insurance. Perhaps this "pension" issue might be the bugaboo, since none of the other employee groups have a pension. Yep, I'll be willing to bet that there are some unhappy employees at LUV. Bet theres some at CO, too - despite being one of the "100 best places to work in America".

 

[skycruiser]

But...you "legacy" folks sure like to spread the word that Southwest is nothing more that wall to wall scum in the passenger compartment

The only person here the seems to keep using the terms, "scum", "trailer trash" in reference to SWA passengers is you KCFlyer. UnitedChicago said" Greyhound service in the air produces many of the trashy episodes that we've watched on A&E - so don't say this program shows that "there really is no difference in a LCC versus a Legacy carrier". The reference was to the type of SERVICE you get while on SWA and not to the type of passenger. Yes you get basic "no frills" service on SWA and on a point to point hop from MCI to MDY then that is fine. One a transcon flight from BWI-SAN it can get a little long. Their are other airlines including JBU that offer a lot more on a long haul flt than SWA. It was also said that "With all due respect to SWA - the global carriers (legacy as you call them) don't deal with the same clientele" This is true, the global carriers do just that, fly globally. A much hirer and more expensive class of service is demanded by the public for the long flights and yes can attract different clientele, hence two very different products. Using the SWA business model would you rather fly a "Legacy" JFK-HKG 16rs (with a choice of business first or coach) with full service or SWA single class, open seatinf, no frills service for 16hrs?

 

[KCFlyer]

The service I get on SWA? HOw about two drink services on a full MCI-OKC flight? And a snack. Or how about drink service on an MCI-TUL(55 minute gate to gate schedule), again on a full 737? The "service" on short flights like that is "due to the shortness of our flight, flight attendants will pass out bottled water." That's if you're lucky. Most won't even do bottled water on short flights.

And sorry...but the "greyhound" comment was directed squarely at SWA passengers.


JetBlue offers TV sets and blue potato chips. Southwest offers a snack pack and greater leg room. But maybe the TV helps you forget that your cramped and hungry. And on redeyes...how many times can you watch Ron Popeil say "set it and forget it"?

Finally...you say we are comparing apples and oranges. How many domestic flights does UAL operate per day? How many "global" flights? I will submit to you that the "global" carriers deal with far more ]domestic passengers (just like Southwest) than they do "global" passengers. And the service they provide their domestic passenger is not up to the level of service tht Southwest provides ALL their passengers. So, for the sake of argument, let's leave the folks going to Hong Kong out of it (although on a 747 bound for HOng Kong, over 200 poeple are sitting in a 17 inch wide seat with 34 inch seat pitch)...lets talk just domestic service. And domestic clientel. The differences between SWA clientel and "global" airlines clientel is negligible.

 

[skycruiser]

Perhaps this "pension" issue might be the bugaboo, since none of the other employee groups have a pension.

My point exactly! I bet the company officers have a pension, I bet upper management has a pension but give 7200 F/A one.. HMMMM now that will cost the company money... They keep their cost low by paying it's employees low wages, no benefits. Yeah they might throw a party for the employees very now and again but at the end of the month that party on Tuesday will not pay the bills. As far as the regional jets go their are a lot of them out there so get used to it. See CAL already has an LCC it's called Express Jet. And as far as getting on other airlines when you buy a ticket on one that is called code sharing. That means you can use your one carriers network becomes larger by opening up booking options on their partners. They in turn feed each other passenger to routes not serviced by the originating airline. That also means you the passenger can book a single ticket and travel a vast network with a lot of options to get to your destination. SWA is a point to point airline with no code sharing deals.

 

[KCFlyer]

My point exactly! I bet the company officers have a pension, I bet upper management has a pension but give 7200 F/A one.. HMMMM now that will cost the company money...

I bet you're wrong.

As far as the regional jets go their are a lot of them out there so get used to it. See CAL already has an LCC it's called Express Jet.

Why get used to it...on Southwest I can fly a 737 with 33 to 34" pitch...

And as far as getting on other airlines when you buy a ticket on one that is called code sharing. That means you can use your one carriers network becomes larger by opening up booking options on their partners. They in turn feed each other passenger to routes not serviced by the originating airline. That also means you the passenger can book a single ticket and travel a vast network with a lot of options to get to your destination. SWA is a point to point airline with no code sharing deals.

That means that you as a passenger who swore up and down that you'd NEVER lfy Northwest again can go over to Continental and book yourself a flight only to find out that it's "operated by Northwest". It also means that if you're heading to Seoul but were concerned about safety issues on Korean air that you can book with confidence on Delta...or can you? Code sharing is nothing more than an elaborate joke. But that's another topic.

 

[Tanker]

skycruiser
Your belief that the company officers at SWA has pensions is wrong. No one at SWA, to include Herb, has a pension. All SWA employees, even Herb, do have profit sharing & 401K. If the F/As get a pension they will be the 1st employee group ever. I don't see that happening.

 

[Goldentail]

CODispatch writes in, and I quote: >>"But Mainline carriers like CO offer so much more....and it obviously costs us more in the process. "<<

I've asked this question before, and nobody ever seemsw to be able to answer ir.

What does the "so much more" that a mainline carrier can provide me consist of.

CO provides me an airline seat to go from A to B in a metal tube. So does WN.

Seat pitch? In the Y cabin I am better off on WN than CO.

Beverage Service? Short flights don't seem to faze WN, I get a drink and a refill. Whether or not a beverage service is offered on 'mainline' carriers seems to be related to phase of the moon and mood of the Flight Attendants.

Frequent Flyer program? The only thing I've ever been able to get out of OnePass was magazine subscriptions. With WN free tickets seem to arrive in the mailbox like clockwork.
First Class? Yep, CO offers it and WN doesn't. But that's not something I want or need. Giving somebody a bunch of extra money for something of no lasting value is not how I managed to accumulate what money I do have.

A trip to CLE, EWR, or IAH whether I want to go there or not? Well, you've got me there. Depending on where you are traveling, you have a better shot at not having to connect if you are flying WN.

Full size jets? The knowledge that if I buy a ticket on CO I am going to be on CO? All this code sharing and express jet stuff.......I swear it's like.....if you show up and it's not a Barbie dream jet (aka RJ) then you find yourself on NW or DL pretending they are CO. It's like buying a box of Rice Crispies and you pour them in the cereal bowl and they turn out to be Raisan Bran. Or you buy a Chevrolet and the first time you wash it, the decal comes off and you find out you have purchased a Dodge.

The bottom line is CO, or any of the other network carriers, really don't do much for me. If you are flying Coach, and most people are (and even a bunch of them in the F cabin are paying for Y tickets)....the network carriers tell you where to sit. That is about the sum and extent of all these costly "extras" you mention. And Hoss, some of us don't really look at forced seating as an advantage.

For business travel I get to ride the govt contract carrier and that varies by market. As a result I get to sample the wares of a lot of different airlines. I will say that of the network carriers, CO and AA generally do a pretty good job. I wouldn;t give you two cents for Delta or United. USAirways is hot and cold. However, I find myself judging other carriers' service against the benchmark set by WN, and only on rare occasions do the others manage to provide me with service comparable in quality to that which I encounter on Southwest.

My suggestion, CODispatch, is to take what I say at face value. Southwest really does do a good job. You can pretend they don't, you can pretend that business travelers or passengers with a buck or two in the bank won't fly them....but all you are doing is pretending. The truth is for many of us, WN is the carrier of choice. Someday, maybe your airline will be as good and we will fly them more often. But you have a ways to go.

ELP WN Psgr.....

Interesting post on your part. you failed to see the obvious....we are a flag carrier, not a national carrier. Just by our route structure, the cost are much higher than somebody flying with the 48 contiguos. I do feel to clear up some points you brought up......

If you like hopping from hether to dither to get to point "B" instead of a efficent 1 stop connection through a hub.....then so be it.....have fun. I'll take the efficency of the network carriers that get you there so much faster in competing markets.
As far as the the network carriers telling you where to sit.....oh wow lets see I'm sure most people love the cattle car call thats done on WN....pushing shoving to get the seat you want, and heaven forbid if you got small children, I flew on WN this past summer, no special treatment offered to us with our children, we had to get onboard and start asking people to switch. So I'll take assigned seating which is a convience for the passenger....nobody is forced to sit anywhere, unless of course your iggnorant enough to not pre-reserve a seat assignment, which in that case your getting whats leftover...kinda like what you get on WN everday.

Nobody said WN doesn't do a good job of what they were designed to do. Don't slam CO because we are a different product. And as far as your statement that maybe someday our airline will be as good as WN....well let me see.....did WN make Fortunes list of the best 100 companies to work for? Nope! CO has recieved numerous JD Powers awards for excellence. So I don't think your point is founded on fact, but rather emotion. I am not pretending WN does not exist....they are a good carrier, but CO does offer meals, blankets, inflight movies, magazines, President Clubs, Businessfirst product, and a comfortable new fleet of aircraft. I know for a fact were a good carrier, and guess what, if you want to go to Europe, South America, Latin America, Canada, Alaska, the Pacific Rim, or Asia...you aint getting there on WN! So it seems to me...you have a ways to go!

 

[ELP_WN_Psgr]

Like I said, CO, you folks are generally okay......nothing to brag about but better than a sharp poke in the eye. Pretty good for a carrier that is nothing more and nothing less than Trans-Texas Airways (and operating on the old TTa certificate initially awarded in 1947) with a different paint scheme.

You talk about how international operations are much costlier than domestic.

I won't argue that there are probably higher costs associated with customs, rentals in a foreign land etc etc. But you have overlooked one key thing.....

As the stage length increases the ASM cost goes down. A lot. Other things being equal, the ASM cost on a 5000 mile trip to Rome is going to be less than the ASM cost for a NY-LA transcon which is less than a nonstop from Kansas City to Portalnd (yes there's a nonstop there) which is less than the 600 mile haul for me from ELP to LAX or DAL which is less than the 250 mile hop over to Midland/Odessa.

Why I would want to go to Midland/Odessa is something I can't quite answer, but I digress.

Those costlier international operations of which you speak have the benefit of, for the most part, being a long ways away. So the costly nature of dealing with foreign airports is offset, to a large degree, by the distance involved.

But let's compare apples to apples. I don't need to go to Tunisia or Madagascar very often. Same goes for Burkina Faso. I do need to run over to Nawlins, Nashville, or Austin on a regular basis. So I am looking for the best deal and the best service I can find on those specific types of routes.

But that's the beauty of living in a free country. You can choose who you want and I will continue to vote with my travel dollar.

Incidentally...how old are the kids? I've NEVER had a problem with WN preboarding me with the monster twins. They've always been fairly solicitious in asking me if I want to preboard. I compare that to a full service legacy carrier....which lets all the zircon encrusted platinum tweezer medallion holder members on but the cheap trashy people like me.....we'll let you on the plane when we get good and ready.

And that sort of sums up why I continue to be so loyal to Southwest. It's not that they don't treat passengers well...they do....look at their DOT stats. They treat everyone well. What they don't do is treat some people better than others. That tends to irk the status seekers, but for somebody wanting to get to their domestic destination with a minimum of hassle while hanging on to as much of my money as I can....Southwest works real well.

I'll pay a dew bucks extra to fly Southwest. That probably sounds heretical, but it all gets down to risk. With kids and work and who-knows-when-somebody-will get-the-crud.....playing airline ticket roulette is a lot riskier than Las Vegas. With Southwest, I buy a ticket. If things go to the infernal regions in a handbasket and I have to abruptly cancel, I've lost nothing. No change fee. Full face value of the ticket good towards another purchase for up to a year.

To me, that is the ultimate frill. Flexibility. You keep the assigned seat. I'll keep the $100 change fee x 4 when chickenpox or strep throat or whatever else the kids bring home from school applies the breaks to a 21-day-in-advance=purchase cheap trip ticket.


i

 

[SWAFA30]

Perhaps this "pension" issue might be the bugaboo, since none of the other employee groups have a pension. Yep, I'll be willing to bet that there are some unhappy employees at LUV. Bet theres some at CO, too - despite being one of the "100 best places to work in America".


Just to clear a few things up vis-a-vis our(inflight's) negotiations with SWA. Second time I have had to address this tonight...thank goodness for "copy" and "paste".
Our main sticking point remains hard pay. Retirement is of course part of the optimum compensation package but at this point we remain far apart on an acceptable payscale. We have been in mediated talks since late summer with close to zero progress. The company's most recent ecomonic proposal only addressed the issue of Holiday Pay. To say that the holiday pay proposal was disappointing would be an understatement. Beyond pay scale increases and holiday pay, reserve pay, vacation pay, productivity pay and training pay all remain on the table. All these issues will have to be hashed out before the NTand JP can move on to any form of retirement pay. We learned today that the company is(finally) working up a counter proposal to the payscale they offered back in the summer. The proposal will be brought to the table when mediated talks resume next month.

As far as the whole "100 Best Places to Work" argument. The reason SWA was not on the list is that we opted out of the nomination process. Before the list came out a year or two ago, Colleen memoed(sp?) the entire company about the reasons behind her decision to withdraw SWA from the "running". Apparently, the process is very labor intensive and time consuming. I am struggling to remember the details of who the process works but from what I can piece together...the company under consideration has to make employees available to the Fortune team for compiling data, interviews, etc. Colleen decided that the bragging rights were not worth the effort.

CO does offer meals, blankets, inflight movies, magazines, President Clubs, Businessfirst product, and a comfortable new fleet of aircraft.

I don't want to get into a "We have this..they have that" discussion but I do want to point a few things out. We(WN) do have blankets and pillows on all flights. We also offer a pretty decent selection of magazines(Golf Digest, Better Homes and Gardens, Entertainment Weekly, PCWorld, Ebony, Essence, Latina, People En Espanol, Sports Illustrated and so on). They do have a tendency to "walk away" but Provo at least puts them on. They are stored in the rear most OHB on the -300/-500/-700 model A/C. Speaking of aircraft, we have one of the youngest pure jet fleets in the industry with the average A/C age hovering around 9 years. Not quite as new as jetBlue but not to shabby considering the size of your fleet (389+/- and rising)This of course will drop considerably when the -200 fleet is retired next year. By the time our
-200s are gone the -700 will comprise over half our fleet making over half our aircraft under 6 years old. All new aircraft (47 this year) are delivered with the new leather interior and from what I understand the rest of the fleet will receive the interior retro-fit by the end of 2005. Finally, management freely admits that IFE is currently under serious consideration.

 

[skycruiser]

Just to clear a few things up vis-a-vis our(inflight's) negotiations with SWA. Second time I have had to address this tonight...thank goodness for "copy" and "paste".
Our main sticking point remains hard pay. Retirement is of course part of the optimum compensation package but at this point we remain far apart on an acceptable payscale. We have been in mediated talks since late summer with close to zero progress. The company's most recent ecomonic proposal only addressed the issue of Holiday Pay. To say that the holiday pay proposal was disappointing would be an understatement. Beyond pay scale increases and holiday pay, reserve pay, vacation pay, productivity pay and training pay all remain on the table. All these issues will have to be hashed out before the NTand JP can move on to any form of retirement pay. We learned today that the company is(finally) working up a counter proposal to the payscale they offered back in the summer. The proposal will be brought to the table when mediated talks resume next month.

20 months is entirely to long for this to have dragged out. For the size, complexity, and profitability of your airline one would think they would be easier to work with with concerning compensation. I am a fellow TWU member so the best of luck to you all.

 

[SWAFA30]

20 months is entirely to long for this to have dragged out. For the size, complexity, and profitability of your airline one would think they would be easier to work with with concerning compensation. I am a fellow TWU member so the best of luck to you all.

You sure said a mouthful. When the Q4/2003 financials were released, the rest of the company was elated...Inflight was furious. You have to be valued by your management in order for them to be willing to compensate you. It is becoming alarming clear that the Inflight Service group is of little value to SWA. So much for this being the "luv" airline. Thanks for wishing us luck...we're gonna need it.

 

[ELP_WN_Psgr]

Beware of vipers, FA30.....

SKycruiser appears to work for another air carrier and seldom has a decent thing to say about Southwest Airlines Co.

Methinks Skycruiser would like nothing more than to see (a) a strike or lockout or (B) a contract so generous that the cost of doing business goes up and the golden goose gets sick.

Truth is I know us passenger customers want to see it resolved as much as if not more than the FAs and management. HOWEVER.....we want to see it resolved in a way that serves the best interests of everybody.

I think the philosopher said it best: You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you'll find, you get what you need.

 

[WNjetdoc]

Skycruiser, you said, "They keep their cost low by paying it's employees low wages, no benefits". That is totally not true. I know our ramp agents top out at about industry high and us AMT's also are about industry high as well. I can't speak for other employee groups. We do have benifits, so you're wrong there as well. We may not have a defined retirement plan, but we do have a nice 401k w/company match and a profit sharing plan second to none.

It seems like underfunded retirement plans are a real money drag on some airlines.

Since you didn't acknowledge how you were wrong, also, about our officers having a defined retirement plan, I will bring it up again to make sure you saw it....THEY DON"T. NO ONE DOES AT WN.

Thanks for your concern about us employees though, you're a sweetheart, .

 

[JS]

Not when spending the extra money for a second seat could literally meanthe difference between life and death for your child. Again, the same parents who would NEVER drive to the corner for a quart of milk without strapping junior into his carseat think nothing of flying with their child on their lap.

There are an unlimited number of things parents COULD spend money on to protect their little ones. But, unless you're God, you have to pick your battles. Parents should spend money on things with good returns (e.g., car seat or private school), and save money on things with a poor return (e.g., SUV or a second airline ticket).

Parents have to strap junior into his car seat for a short car trip because it's the law! Besides that, the probability of crashing while driving a car is much greater than the probability of crashing while on a plane -- even more so when flying on Southwest with its excellent safety record.