3rd Quarter Profit

[local 12 proud]

AA was the first company that brought in 'B' scale, created the OSM workers and outsourced most of their avionics maintenance all without a whimper.

B) UT

You forgot to mention all with the TWU's blessing! :down:

Regards,

Local 12

 

[Busdrvr]

One of the most idiotic posts I have ever read that even surpasses a post from USA320PILOT. Your fate was sealed on Dec 09, 2002 (4 months prior AA concessions) when UA declared bankruptcy. Throughout history, in every case, the bankruptcy judges have given airline managements total authority to rape, rob, plunder, and steal. In every case before UA (CO, EA, PA, TW, BN and US), the employees lost it all with bankruptcy judges as the enablers. The same thing happened to DL and NW employees after the UA bankruptcy. NEVER HAS A BANKRUPTCY JUDGE DONE ANYTHING FOR THE EMPLOYEES. THEY BASICALLY GIVE MANAGEMENT WHATEVER THEIR HEART DESIRES. So even if AA had went bankrupt, your fate would still have been the same.

Some important dates in the UAL bankruptcy case: (from USA today)

Dec. 09, 2002- UAL files for bankruptcy.

May 01, 2003- New UA labor contracts with $2.56 billion in concessions go into effect. (These were negotiated in the preceding month at the same time as AA's concessionary contracts of $1.8 billion were negotiated; so much for your theory of us "lowering the bar".)

May 10, 2005- Bankruptcy courts agrees with UA to terminate pensions.

July 21, 2005- UA negotiates another $700 million in pay cuts. (bringing the total to $3.26 billion. Who's lowering the bar?).

Sep. 07, 2005- UA files reorganization plan which wipes out stock. (BYE BYE ESOP).

By staying out of bankruptcy, we have "upheld the bar". AA or it's employees are not responsible in any way, shape, or form, for your predicament at UA. Your posts remind me of citizens in third world countries who blame the United States for their own predicaments. What's next, are you going to blame us for your participation in the ESOP?

I can only speak about the pilot deal. IIRC, AMR's pilots were working under a concessionary deal after a hard fought battle and devistating 5 minute strike <_< and between sept 11 and UAL's BK, had "saved" AMR over half a $ BILLION via lower wages. I'm willing to bet I've made more per flight hour at UAL since 2000 than a pilot with similar seniority made at AMR. But then again the AMR pilots "saved the company" just like many of our "pilots" tell me they "saved UAL" back in 1985.... :down:

 

[Busdrvr]

You are a sick and vulgar thing. I feel sorry for the woman who gave birth to you. the father that tried to raise you ....and anyone who has to work next to you. You lead a sad life and one day it will catch up to you

I'm sorry, but you've come to our board, criticised us and then in your last two post done nothing but call one of our own vulgar names....and you feel sorry for people that work with BEAUTY? GMAFB. Go take a paxil and relax, you're taking this FAR to seriously, and you're out of bounds.

 

[aafsc]

I like your selective memory (or is this a cut and past from USATODAY...).
May, 03 was a 'court imposed' pay cut. AMFA ratification for a new agreement was ratified May 31, 2005 53% for 47% against. During our negotiations, all you other cowards succumbed without a whimper. The great unions at Continental didn't even make headlines, but your concessionary agreements did (should make you proud).

Since then, Delta and NWA went BK.

Your funny, AA was the first company that brought in 'B' scale, created the OSM workers and outsourced most of their avionics maintenance all without a whimper.

Now wipe your chin and get back to work.

B) UT

You are right about the B-scale and the OSM. The B-scale was in response to CO's first bankruptcy in 1982 where they just tossed out the contracts, farmed out all overhaul, fired half the workforce, and cut the pay 50% with little or no benefits for the half that remained. Right after CO did this, EAL immediately threatened to follow suit; I personally saw Borman's video where he issued the threat; the EAL unions caved and gave more concessions. Additionally, there was People Express, Pan Am, and Northeastern. The reason the incumbent AA employees agreed to this was because they would not be touched. The B-scalers took the pay cut for them.

As for the "court imposed" pay cut, a pay cut is still a pay cut. History has always shown quite clearly that employees fare extremely poor in bankruptcy. Wasn't AMFA's position "were better off in bankruptcy" and "let the judge decide"? Looks like AMFA doesn't study history.

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

So we gave up 3 billion with BK and you gave up 2 without, sounds like a winner to me I have a feeling the lube companies are gearing up for a very profitable couple of years to come... Although, you guys are so willing to give it up, you won't need any ...

How 'bout some lube for the thousands of small businesses who took it up the arse because of Jake Brace' financial brilliance?

The creditors got pennies and Jake gets millions??

You are right. UA is definitely smarter....... <_<

 

[aafsc]

I can only speak about the pilot deal. IIRC, AMR's pilots were working under a concessionary deal after a hard fought battle and devistating 5 minute strike <_< and between sept 11 and UAL's BK, had "saved" AMR over half a $ BILLION via lower wages. I'm willing to bet I've made more per flight hour at UAL since 2000 than a pilot with similar seniority made at AMR. But then again the AMR pilots "saved the company" just like many of our "pilots" tell me they "saved UAL" back in 1985.... :down:

After the UA and DL pilots obtained their last prebankruptcy contract, Carty offered the APA the same rates in order to buy labor peace. The APA refused because they either wanted more and/or they wanted improvements in other areas. Ironically, APA's rebuff allowed AA to stay out of bankruptcy; for if APA had received parity with UA and DL pilots, AA would have had to file chapter 11. As for the 5 minute strike, I remember that the President stepped in.

 

[aafsc]

So we gave up 3 billion with BK and you gave up 2 without, sounds like a winner to me, just wonder what you will give up this time around, should of just cut to the chase the first time around, you are in for a big surprise hot mama... Your performance is the worst among most airlines in the profit sector and you should be producing double what the others made.. I have a feeling the lube companies are gearing up for a very profitable couple of years to come... Although, you guys are so willing to give it up, you won't need any ...

You gave up $3.2 billion in wages and work rules in addition the UA pension default of $9.8 billion. We gave up $1.8 billion in wages and work rules and still have our pensions.

 

[Edward]

You are a sick and vulgar thing. I feel sorry for the woman who gave birth to you. the father that tried to raise you ....and anyone who has to work next to you. You lead a sad life and one day it will catch up to you

Personal attacks are not permitted. Time off is given......

Reminder to all on this subject & please stay on topic

 

[UAL_TECH]

As for the "court imposed" pay cut, a pay cut is still a pay cut. History has always shown quite clearly that employees fare extremely poor in bankruptcy. Wasn't AMFA's position "were better off in bankruptcy" and "let the judge decide"? Looks like AMFA doesn't study history.

From your Eastern experience, is it better to die from a cut of a thousand knives or die with one cut to a vital organ?
The IAM gave and gave to a point that was 'finally' untenable. But even the IAM strike did not stop the 'Machine' and EAL continued their operations, until it affected the pilots. Which after many picket line crossings, finally decided that the onslaught actually affects them as well.

JMHO, we are divided in our efforts and affiliations.
We (in our inaction of solidarity) have made ourselves moot.

Did I miss something?

B) UT

 

[spacewaitress]

You gave up $3.2 billion in wages and work rules in addition the UA pension default of $9.8 billion. We gave up $1.8 billion in wages and work rules and still have our pensions.

Yup...right on!

 

[tech2101]

Tilton. Lipstick. Pig.

FIRE SALE.

I read the first line and thought you were describing your "look". Read the second line and realized YOU are describing what the fellas at the dorm referred to you as.

Oh you are too easy.....whoops that is what they also said about you.

What happened? Some leggy UA F/A steal your SkyNAAzi boyfriend.

Wow! No love lost here.

 

[aafsc]

From your Eastern experience, is it better to die from a cut of a thousand knives or die with one cut to a vital organ?
The IAM gave and gave to a point that was 'finally' untenable. But even the IAM strike did not stop the 'Machine' and EAL continued their operations, until it affected the pilots. Which after many picket line crossings, finally decided that the onslaught actually affects them as well.

JMHO, we are divided in our efforts and affiliations.
We (in our inaction of solidarity) have made ourselves moot.

Did I miss something?

B) UT

The IAM strike did in fact stop the "machine". When the IAM struck, the pilots and F/A's honored the line. In fact, EAL was only to able to get 1 flight in the air (MIA-EZE-SCL and back), most likely with management pilots. As they were able to get more and more new hire scab pilots through training (as well as scabs for the other work groups), they moved to get the NE shuttle up and running in order to maintain it's value because of it's pending sale to Trump. As EAL produced more and more new hire pilot scabs, EAL ALPA decided it was time to go back in; which of course meant crossing the line, the F/As followed suit. By this time EAL was a shadow of its former self and continued to burn the creditor's cash with it's continuing loses. Finally, after granting EAL management's numerous requests for funds for the continued operation of the airline, the judge said no more and EAL shut it's doors forever.

 

[aafsc]

So we gave up 3 billion with BK and you gave up 2 without, sounds like a winner to me, just wonder what you will give up this time around, should of just cut to the chase the first time around, you are in for a big surprise . Your performance is the worst among most airlines in the profit sector and you should be producing double what the others made.. I have a feeling the lube companies are gearing up for a very profitable couple of years to come... Although, you guys are so willing to give it up, you won't need any ...

Wording removed.
Moderator notelease be careful of language used.

Found some numbers on the ESOP and retiree medical. The ESOP cost UA employees (except F/As) $4.9 billion in wages and work rules. Retiree medical was valued as a $1.7 billion
liability (from UA 2001 annual report).

To sum it up:

ESOP- $4.9 billion (does not include interest that could have been
earned even from a simple savings account.)

Wages, work rules, etc. $3.2 billion
Pension underfunding (loss) $9.8 billion
Retiree medical loss $1.7 billion

Total lost $19.6 billion

Just ONE of your concessions (retiree medical at $1.7 billion) is only $100 million less than ALL of our concessions.
$1.8 billion AA employee loss compared to $19.6 billion UA employee loss; BIG difference, it can be compared to a one time "grope" versus years of "jail house love".

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

Just ONE of your concessions (retiree medical at $1.7 billion) is only $100 million less than ALL of our concessions.
$1.8 billion AA employee loss compared to $19.6 billion UA employee loss; BIG difference, it can be compared to a one time "grope" versus years of "jail house love".
[/quote]


It IS wrong to rape employees of anything they have earned, in the grand scheme of things, if everyone truly cares they all take cuts and then they all share in the good times.. As we all know the good ole USofA doesnt run like that... You only gave nearly 2billion without a fight, but what you fail to understand, is that, unfortunately this will hurt you in the long run... We can debate all day about what has happened in the last 6 years, but one thing is for sure... It happened... So now you need to focus on whats next, which is how to compete and withstand the spikes in oil, which hit highs again... You see, you want to be at a competitive advantage, and when all of your competitors have gone through procedures to lower costs (much more so than yourself) it puts you at a huge disadvantage... Lets put it this way, when your posting the lowest profits and have some of the highest, if not the highest debt among your peers you will be the first to post losses... For example, AA should be posting at least double the profit of USAIRWAYS due to size and capacity along with route network, but instead they are posting less, Yeah we all know the employees got raped, and thats what helped the company, but guess what, it seems as if they are much better positioned now to be around for the longrun as say... AA .. I have a feeling that you will wish you would have just went into BK to start with when your negotiations start up.. My other question is this, did AA win some high society award that I didn't hear about for staying out of BK??? UUUMMMM no... I wouldn't brag about how LITTLE you gave back, 2 billion is no small number, and if my company wanted 2Billion back, I would hope they would just go into BK.. Either way they got it, and now you will more than likely get it again.

 

[FA Mikey]

It IS wrong to rape employees of anything they have earned, in the grand scheme of things, if everyone truly cares they all take cuts and then they all share in the good times..

Interesting, I never thought of taking cuts and then sharing in those good times.

As we all know the good ole USofA doesnt run like that... You only gave nearly 2billion without a fight, but what you fail to understand, is that, unfortunately this will hurt you in the long run...

So as you continually point that out. As if there was a chance no cuts would be needed at AMR. Isn't it interesting that your idea of the "Great Fight" is UAL, and other bankrupt airline employees taking it in the shorts in court being somehow honorable. Yet taking a lesser hit out side of bankruptcy is not.

We can debate all day about what has happened in the last 6 years, but one thing is for sure... It happened...

Not so much a debate, its one UAL employee who continually brings up the subject and how it went down, with other's pointing out how Wrong you are.

So now you need to focus on whats next, which is how to compete and withstand the spikes in oil, which hit highs again... You see, you want to be at a competitive advantage, and when all of your competitors have gone through procedures to lower costs (much more so than yourself) it puts you at a huge disadvantage...

In your world yes, but there are other was to lower costs and/or raise their CASM. Options AMR will have, having gone the easy BK route UAL and other chose.

Lets put it this way, when your posting the lowest profits and have some of the highest, if not the highest debt among your peers you will be the first to post losses...

My advise to you is stay away from numbers. You have proven and inability to comprehend even the simplest math equations.

A question, are the profits of a company the sole judge of its financial stability? Does posting a lower dollar amount mean, that one company over another less fiscally responsible? When you post "have some of the highest, if not the highest debt among young your peers," mean you have no idea what the numbers for this or any other company really is?

For example, AA should be posting at least double the profit of USAIRWAYS due to size and capacity along with route network, but instead they are posting less, Yeah we all know the employees got raped, and thats what helped the company, but guess what, it seems as if they are much better positioned now to be around for the long run as say... AA

You assume to much and bank the entire argument of future and survivability on a few quarters of profits. That is the most idiotic way to judge the finances of a corporation. But show us you are right and everyone else is wrong. Give us the numbers breakdown for AMR and U. Show us the compare the ASM's, and CASM the Yields, and debt to equity ratio's. Show us cash on hand and unencumbered asset's VS long and short term debt obligations, ETC.

.. I have a feeling that you will wish you would have just went into BK to start with when your negotiations start up..

You have a lot of feelings, comments, numbers and postings, all of which turnout to be wrong or false. Why should this one be any different.

My other question is this, did AA win some high society award that I didn't hear about for staying out of BK??? UUUMMMM no... I wouldn't brag about how LITTLE you gave back, 2 billion is no small number, and if my company wanted 2Billion back, I would hope they would just go into BK.. Either way they got it, and now you will more than likely get it again.

Yea, they have a easier time getting and maintaining credit. They have shown investors they have a competent management team who can run a company successfully VS what all other airlines have done.