$291 million in net earnings for 2Q2006

[Hopeful]

I agree with you 100% that there are far too many Senior VP position. Many could be consolidated.

And the Upper management is not asking for or getting all the credit for the Airline making a one quarter profit.

My only point from the very beginning of this forum was why is it that every single topic good or bad has to end up in a management attack and anti AMR rant.

We made a profit for god sakes stand up and take the credit you deserve. I do not know where you work but if you are still employed by AMR you probably took a nice hit fionancially and still stood by and worked hard to help turn it around. We all deserve credit and the general flying public know that.

Just answer me this. Did you or did you not rain on the profit parade before at least celebrating a good quarter

Yes..But go back to my post, I was responding to FWAAA who had stated that the executives earned their variable payout. That irks my a## as much as what Carty did with the SERPS while threatening bankruptcy.

Of course I like to see the company profitable,,,But it doesn't do us any good because unless your are an executive, there is no more profit sharing plan to share in the good times.

Also, let me clarify that I am not anti mangagement. When I complain about mangagement, it is directed at the upper crust of this company who have been insulated from the pain the rest of us have been enduring. And they they get defended using the "market rate" mantra that their own peers determine.

Of course the profit news is good, but I do not expect to reap any benefits because, as stated, before, the company broke the unions and DO NOT have to give us anything except the "just be lucky to have a job" and "be happy we are not bankrupt!"

 

[DLFlyer31]

Of course I like to see the company profitable,,,But it doesn't do us any good because unless your are an executive, there is no more profit sharing plan to share in the good times.

Sounds to me like your union did a poor job negotiating. Many other employees at other airlines have profit sharing...why didn't your union negotiate for it?

I'm not defending AA management. They did some sleazy stuff and should have been fired. But even if every senior manager had worked for free since 9/11...AA still would have needed concessions from all the employees. It might have helped morale, but it wouldn't have saved you from a trip to the concession stand.

 

[Hopeful]

Sounds to me like your union did a poor job negotiating. Many other employees at other airlines have profit sharing...why didn't your union negotiate for it?

I'm not defending AA management. They did some sleazy stuff and should have been fired. But even if every senior manager had worked for free since 9/11...AA still would have needed concessions from all the employees. It might have helped morale, but it wouldn't have saved you from a trip to the concession stand.

UNION? the TWU? They are a company union! Bought and paid for by AA management!

The only real union at AA is the CREDIT UNION!

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

If all Arpey was concerned about was filling his pockets he would have left already. Arpey is a highly respected CEO and could command much more than he makes now.

===========================================================

"Cut the ####", oneflyer.

Arpey held one side of the "bag" open, while "little jim" little....held the other, while CARTY "stuffed it", (just before he got caught)!!

I'm assuming that you "knew" that Arpey was #2 man(behind Carty), and WAS aware of EVERYTHING (the) Don was doing ?

NH/BB's

 

[FWAAA]

Yes..But go back to my post, I was responding to FWAAA who had stated that the executives earned their variable payout. That irks my a## as much as what Carty did with the SERPS while threatening bankruptcy.

Of course I like to see the company profitable,,,But it doesn't do us any good because unless your are an executive, there is no more profit sharing plan to share in the good times.

Also, let me clarify that I am not anti mangagement. When I complain about mangagement, it is directed at the upper crust of this company who have been insulated from the pain the rest of us have been enduring. And they they get defended using the "market rate" mantra that their own peers determine.

Of course the profit news is good, but I do not expect to reap any benefits because, as stated, before, the company broke the unions and DO NOT have to give us anything except the "just be lucky to have a job" and "be happy we are not bankrupt!"

Well, it irks my ass when my lottery numbers don't get chosen, either. And it burns me that I didn't become a CEO of a major oil company as well. But life goes on.

When news of the variable comp payouts broke earlier this year, post after post whined about the absence of profits as one reason the payouts should not occur. Well, the predicted profits arrived. The high stock price triggered the huge variable payouts. The stock was high because investors expected that profits were imminent. And viola, those profits arrived. Pretty straightforward to me (and I'm not receiving any variable payouts).

As I've posted before, I'd be madder than hell at paying dues to a worthless union that didn't even have the brains (or balls) to at least keep the old profit sharing scheme in place. It's too bad your contract doesn't cut you in on any of this profit. But that's not my problem, and it's not AA's problem. It's your problem. You joined a worthless union, paid dues to it for all those years, all the while ignoring Delle (and his no-member union) until things got ugly.

The idiots in charge of your union agreed to concessions with no real possible upside. That sucks. But like I said - that has nothing to do with the variable payouts. Without a union, those guys negotiated a much better deal than you did. Like I said, I don't blame you for being madder than hell. I'd be absolutely pissed at myself if I were in your crappy union.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

I do not mean to generalize....the bi*chers and moaners know who they are.....they just won't admit it!

Let me ask you NHBB.....3 yrs ago, would you have predicted what is happening right now at AA??? What is your opinion on the work together program??? Useless or productive? Is it worth it??????

==========================================================

"Bit*hers and moaners" are YOUR words for some guys, THAT TELL THE(uncomfortable for some) TRUTH !!

YES, 3 years ago(right after the concessions) I would have predicted what is happening right now with AA..the Company !! (The workers $$$, well thats another story)

The "work together program" ??, That all depends which side of the "mason dixon line" your station is on !!
(SOME people, will ALWAYS FOLLOW "the pied piper")

Useless or productive = "North or South" !!

Is it worth it ??...............Yes, "IF" the concessions are recinded (within a normal LIFETIME) !!!!!!!

NH/BB's

If you didn't have high labor rate and unproductive work rules there wouldn't be any need to try to break the union.

=========================================================

Oneflyer,

Here is YOUR big chance to SHINE, while all of us are sitting around the campfire, silent, awaiting your answer to the following lil' ol' question;

Ready ???,

"How is it, that we had high labor rates, and unproductive work rules" ?????????????????

(Good luck)

NH/BB's

 

[Hopeful]

Well, it irks my ass when my lottery numbers don't get chosen, either. And it burns me that I didn't become a CEO of a major oil company as well. But life goes on.

When news of the variable comp payouts broke earlier this year, post after post whined about the absence of profits as one reason the payouts should not occur. Well, the predicted profits arrived. The high stock price triggered the huge variable payouts. The stock was high because investors expected that profits were imminent. And viola, those profits arrived. Pretty straightforward to me (and I'm not receiving any variable payouts).

As I've posted before, I'd be madder than hell at paying dues to a worthless union that didn't even have the brains (or balls) to at least keep the old profit sharing scheme in place. It's too bad your contract doesn't cut you in on any of this profit. But that's not my problem, and it's not AA's problem. It's your problem. You joined a worthless union, paid dues to it for all those years, all the while ignoring Delle (and his no-member union) until things got ugly.

The idiots in charge of your union agreed to concessions with no real possible upside. That sucks. But like I said - that has nothing to do with the variable payouts. Without a union, those guys negotiated a much better deal than you did. Like I said, I don't blame you for being madder than hell. I'd be absolutely pissed at myself if I were in your crappy union.

And we all know how stock prices CAN'T be manipulated, . And as Arpey said in the special jetwire, there is still more to be done to insure future profits?

Maybe he can hire another VP.
VICE PRESIDENT OF HOW TO INSURE FUTURE PROFITS.

EXECUTIVES NEGOTIATED A BETTER DEAL??????????????????????????????????? THE TOP 2000 MANAGERS HAVE A UNION?????????????????????? WOW, WHATS THE NAME OF THAT UNION?

There were no negotiations in this instance. It is an automatic PERK!
Why do continiue to defend these FAT CATS?

You must have wet your pants when former Mobil/Exxon CEO Lee Raymond received his $400 million dollar payout at the expense not of his employees, but the average Jane And Joe who pay through thenose at the pump.


I do not begrudge ANYONE for advancing in ANY company. Sure, salary should be equitably increased. Sure,there should be added compensation and benefits. But when a company is in financial distress, NO ONE should receive OBSCENE compensation.

During the profitable and good years at AA, did you ever hear any union member #### that Crandall received what he did?
No! Because we were all doing ok...

But 9/11 came and the downturn in the economy ensued, and airline executives accross the country launched their final attack on labor while insulating themselves..
Some of these MBA boys used the bankruptcy courts to break the labor agreements while asking a judge to increase their own compensation.

FWAAA, wouldn't you just love to fly on an airline where the mechanic at USAIR and NWA took such a hit in wages and benefits that he/she needs two jobs to pay his bills?
That mechanic is dead on his/her feet working most hours of the day!

I say, if AA execs can commmand a better salary at another airline or in an another industry, go for it.. Then AA can promote someone from a lower management tier who might really want the job and not just glory of the paycheck.

 

[Oneflyer]

There were no negotiations in this instance. It is an automatic PERK!
Why do continiue to defend these FAT CATS?

You must have wet your pants when former Mobil/Exxon CEO Lee Raymond received his $400 million dollar payout at the expense not of his employees, but the average Jane And Joe who pay through thenose at the pump.

Exxon had about 370 billion in revenue in 2005, Raymond's payout represented about 0.1% of revenue. Given that not all of Exxon's revenue comes from selling gas from gas stations, you're looking at about a quarter cent worth of an increase to pay Raymond's salary.

I'm not defending his payout, but your math is just doesn't add up. To blaim the rise of oil on rich executives or to blame concessions on airline executive bonuses is just wrong. Its not even close, its comparing millions and billions.

 

[Hopeful]

Exxon had about 370 billion in revenue in 2005, Raymond's payout represented about 0.1% of revenue. Given that not all of Exxon's revenue comes from selling gas from gas stations, you're looking at about a quarter cent worth of an increase to pay Raymond's salary.

I'm not defending his payout, but your math is just doesn't add up. To blaim the rise of oil on rich executives or to blame concessions on airline executive bonuses is just wrong. Its not even close, its comparing millions and billions.

No where was I saying that the oil execs are the sole cause of high gas prices. The companies themselves are taking advantage as do airline executives. But unlike the oil companies, airlines were a day late and a dollar short increasing fares.
But how do you figure that when the price of a barrel goes up, oil company profits increase? Are the oil companies not paying opec a higher price? No need to elude to the supply and demand argument.

So you minimalize Raymond's payout using the percentage vs. revenue calculation. But the fact remains that people are feeling the pain at the pump because Raymond and the other oil company execs say it's supply and demand and it is not there fault.

I don't subscribe to this view no matter how many Oil Company MBA's and Economics experts defend it. If the oil companies pay more more barrel and then raise the prices downstream ACCORDINGLY, then there profits should match ACCORDINGLY, not increase tenfold.

Here's my favorite scenario:

I am on my way to work, I see the local gas station getting a delivery. The attendant changes the price on the pumps and the sign. I go to work the following day and see another price increase at that same station. Did that gas station get another 8000 gallons delivered?



Now, I never blamed concessions on airline executives' bonues. But they do get bonuses for having won concessions that amounted in the billions for all employees.
You see, they like to give the illusion that they a sharing in the sacrifices with paycuts...But they still get bonuses and payouts not based on company performance, but STOCK PRICE.

Kinda like oil trading on future prices.

 

[AMFAMAN]

You joined a worthless union, paid dues to it for all those years, all the while ignoring Delle (and his no-member union) until things got ugly.

Most on this board started pushing for a new union in the mid 90's and came close to a filing in 99 and 2000. So this is an ongoing issue before this board appeared. <_<

 

[FWAAA]

I don't subscribe to this view no matter how many Oil Company MBA's and Economics experts defend it. If the oil companies pay more more barrel and then raise the prices downstream ACCORDINGLY, then there profits should match ACCORDINGLY, not increase tenfold.

Hopeful, what you're leaving out is that many oil companies actually own a lot of oil reserves in the ground for which they paid very little. Not all oil is purchased from Arabs or other OPEC countries. If an oil company buys reserves (or discovers oil in its own fields) and then oil spikes from $10 - $15 per barrel up to the recent $75/bbl, then their profits are gonna go thru the ceiling. Like they have done.

In your ealier post, you asked me if I wanted my airplane mechanics to be so poorly paid that they have to work two jobs. You apparently don't read (at least I hope that's the problem - I don't want to think you're incapable of comprehending my writing) my posts very closely.

In post after post, I have stated my desire that AA's mechanics be paid top wages. Unfortunately, the near-insolvency of early 2003 required that AA either chop your wages (which sucks) or file for protection under Ch 11 and chop them there as each and every other airline except for WN has done.

UAL paid its bankruptcy lawyers, accountants, investment bankers and other parasites more than $600 million during its three year stint in Ch 11. Then its execs walk away with over $400 million more worth of stock when it emerged from Ch 11. Not to mention the elimination of all heavy airframe overhaul maintenance and the furlough of thousands of mechanics.

And you guys are pissing and moaning about AA's execs' mere $100 million or so variable comp plan?!?

Gimme an F'ing break. As some of the AA management types have posted recently, you guys either have no idea how good you've got it or you just like to be perpetually disgruntled.

Yeah, you guys took it up the butt. The UAL employees were passed around the entire football team. I wouldn't want to take that kind of abuse, but I'd gladly suffer the limited reaming that AA's employees endured over the gangbang perpetuated against the UAL employees. But that's just me.

Wetting myself over the EXXON/Mobil $400 million? Excessive, no doubt, but my XOM stock (my gasoline hedging strategy) has paid off in spades, so I don't get too worked up over someone else's excessive paycheck. As I've posted before - I don't get worked up over the price at the pump, either. You might say I'm hopeful the price of gas continues to go higher.

 

[Oneflyer]

No where was I saying that the oil execs are the sole cause of high gas prices. The companies themselves are taking advantage as do airline executives. But unlike the oil companies, airlines were a day late and a dollar short increasing fares.
But how do you figure that when the price of a barrel goes up, oil company profits increase? Are the oil companies not paying opec a higher price? No need to elude to the supply and demand argument.

So you minimalize Raymond's payout using the percentage vs. revenue calculation. But the fact remains that people are feeling the pain at the pump because Raymond and the other oil company execs say it's supply and demand and it is not there fault.

I don't subscribe to this view no matter how many Oil Company MBA's and Economics experts defend it. If the oil companies pay more more barrel and then raise the prices downstream ACCORDINGLY, then there profits should match ACCORDINGLY, not increase tenfold.

It is exactly a supply and demand issue. Gas and airline prices are also very different when it comes to elacisty of their demand.

What does that mean? At least short term, I have to pay whatever the price of gas is, because I have to get to work. So I pay whatever is charge until I can change my consumption.

Airline fares are far different. I travel a lot for work now and usually my boss doesn't care how much, but as ticket prices start to rise, we have to find other ways of getting things done without travelling. So just doubling the price of tickets doesn't work, because fewer people travel. Only as the economy has grown, but availibility has shrunk have airline been able to raise fares, but they will never be able to raise them like oil companies can.

 

[Hopeful]

If you didn't have high labor rate and unproductive work rules there wouldn't be any need to try to break the union.

HIGH LABOR RATE is waht you said, Oneflyer!
What is an acceptable rate to you?

Wetting myself over the EXXON/Mobil $400 million? Excessive, no doubt, but my XOM stock (my gasoline hedging strategy) has paid off in spades, so I don't get too worked up over someone else's excessive paycheck. As I've posted before - I don't get worked up over the price at the pump, either. You might say I'm hopeful the price of gas continues to go higher.

That is the typical Wall Street mentality!

You are probably also heavily invested in the casket and body bag market since the Iraq War started. Maybe you are hoping for World War III in the Middle East, then your stocks can really pay off.

 

[Bob Owens]

I was off by $91 million; I predicted $200 million:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060719/daw011.html?.v=69

$5.2 billion in unrestricted cash.

I think the executives earned their variable payouts. The perpetually disgruntled (suffering from pay envy, IMO) will of course disagree.

Pay envy? No, its about when someone lies to you and cheats you.

If you hire a guy perform menial low paying serice for you and he takes your money without providing you the service you may not be envious of his paycheck but you still might be pissed off at him.

 

[Bob Owens]

Hopeful...are they really bargaining successes if in the long run they are what may have been hurting the company and therefore it's ability to grow and not have to lay people off.

You list a lot of things you think mgmt shouldn't get credit for. List a few things you consider "sucessess" that have hurt the company. Be at least a little balanced...or try to provide the appearance of being such.

I am of the opinion that if AA had not taken away so much from their workers that their bottom line would have rebouded much sooner.

How much does the poor morale that is so prevalent hurt the company?

When you lay someone off the person most affected is off the property, the impact on workfoce morale is minimized, sure everyone feels bad for the guy who was laid off but thats why we voted for politicians who supported unemployment benifits, when they get the years in they will no longer get hurt, we all went through it at one time or another, but when you cut everyones pay everyone on the property has been hurt, hurt in ways they were not expecting or prepared for.

How much does it cost the company when a gear swing takes 8 hours instead of less than 2, an engine change takes 24 hours instead of less than 8 and planes sit broken for days or weeks because nobody cares enough to take an interest in fixing it, they simply put in their eight hours and pass it on? How much does it cost to lease extra aircraft, how much does aircraft underutilization cost? How much do they pay out for lost bags, damaged equipement, delays and cancellations each and every day, most of which can be attributed to poor morale? How does AAs numbers on these things compare to SWA?

If AA had kept the pay rates up they could have elimiated even more jobs than they have and seen real savings in labor costs through increased productivity. We all know that for years AA was overstaffed. AA was still hiring even after it was obvious the industry was in a slowdown, even after they took on TWA and even after 9-11. I was dumbfounded how as Treasurer of Local 562 I saw our membership increase by around 20% from 1999 to 2002. The industry was in an obvious slowdown from 2000 on but our membership was increasing!

Now they are trying to force increased productivity by not replacing anyone who leaves, but its simply not working like they planned, after all the spare aircraft are used they have to hold OT in order to get whats left fixed. And thats with the majority of pilots clearly "on board".What AA fails to see is that its the "can do" attitude that has allowed SWA to not only survive, but prosper. SWA charges low fares yet pays well. Everyone talks about SWAs productivity but they no longer want to discuss pay, sure the way a workforce is managed is important but so is how they are paid. If you want to pay like UAL and USAIR then dont expect SWA productivity. You are not going to get a can do attitude when the paycheck says F-U everytime you see it and if they cut your pay thats exactly what management is saying to you.

So, you have a family, debt and obligations, all set with the expectation that you were getting a certain amount of money then out of the blue they take away 25% of that, you cant just bolt, but you also realize that life will never be the same, it will be worse and it will be because of them. The company that you relied upon and were willing to make sacrifices and go above and beyond for has decided to no longer live up to their end but expects the same, if not more, from you. So what do you do? You show up and do what you must, you do what you are told, no more, no less and that is the difference between the productive worker at SWA and the worker at airlines that cut their employees pay.

If all Arpey was concerned about was filling his pockets he would have left already. Arpey is a highly respected CEO and could command much more than he makes now.

Then why does he stay?

If you didn't have high labor rate and unproductive work rules there wouldn't be any need to try to break the union.

Could you please give us an example of the "unproductive work rules " that you speak of, in the M&R contract if you could please?

There is no need for AA to break the TWU since they already own it, they simply want to break the idea of unionism within the rank and file worker and Jim Little is more than happy to help.