2015 Pilot Discussion.
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dariencc
Veteran
- Dec 4, 2006
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N924PS said:
Your "glorious" 36 year career came thanks to being given your PSA date of hire all along the way, just in case you forgot. Of course, your hard working F/Os deserve nothing of the sort, right? Let's give them 36 years of juniority while your Westie buddies enjoy all of our attrition. What a guy!
The PSA retirees that I'm in touch with think you're a self serving dip****. I concur, by the way.
dariencc
Veteran
- Dec 4, 2006
- 1,284
- 1,912
N924PS said:
Hooterville? Do I ever wish you had talked that way while you were still working. We all remember you as the no-balls Captain, so it never would have happened.
I sure would have loved to see it, though. The first time you mouthed off like that outside of the safe confines of the airport, you would have had your sorry a** beaten in about a second.
dariencc said:
As do the soon-to-be retirees, I promise you. I mean really; just what kind of person would wish harm to his/her junior coworkers in the first place?...Much less merely to further the former's personal selfishness? DOH's good for me...but not for anyone else if it causes me any personal inconvenience whatsoever....Seriously? I'd say he's long overdue proper recognition from the equally, morally impaired "spartans" by way of at least an "Integrity Matters" T-shirt.
US Airways Pilot: 'We Tried Compromise In 2007, Not Just Date of Hire'
Ted Reed ,
CONTRIBUTOR
I've been covering the airline industry since 1989.
Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own.
The controversial seniority award that forever scarred the 2005 US Airways/America West merger is often viewed as a case where one side refused to compromise on a “date of hire” seniority list, an arbitrator issued a one-sided ruling and then the other side refused to compromise.
But one former leader of the US Airways chapter of the Air Line Pilots Association says US Airways pilots never insisted on date of hire.
Rather, he said, pilot leaders from “the east” offered something different: “longevity” credit for the 1,900 pilots laid off at the time of the merger. In other words, a laid-off pilot would get credit for the years he worked, not for the years since he was hired.
Additionally, the pilot said in a recent interview, if arbitrator George Nicolau had adopted a different ratio for the integration of US Airways and America West pilots, Nicolau’s ruling might not have turned into the roadblock it has become.
Nine years after the merger, the two pilot groups still have separate seniority lists. The pilot asked not to be named because he is no longer a union official.
Following the 2013 American/US Airways merger, the problems associated with Nicolau’s binding seniority award become the problems of the Allied Pilots Association, which represents the 15,000 American pilots.
Two other pilot unions and a succession of judges have failed to solve those problems, and it seems fair to say that the vast majority of people from America West, American, and US Airways are hoping that APA can successfully craft an acceptable compromise.
Since 2007 Jack Stephan, the last president of the US Airways chapter of the Air Line Pilots Association, has maintained that that some pilot leaders from US Airways failed to seek to compromise at a critical junction early that year when Nicolau, after hearing days of testimony, asked the two sides to come back and try to make a deal.
The master executive committee “was uncomfortable with providing our merger committee with the authority to move off our original position,” Stephan said in an interview for my book, “American Airlines, US Airways and the Creation of the World’s Largest Airline,” which will be published next month. “Nobody on the MEC wanted to be the guy who backed off DOH.”
But the former pilot leader, who acknowledges he was considered to be a hard-liner, said the MEC did not tell the merger committee not to negotiate. It just questioned the wisdom of the committee making a late change in its position. “The merger committee had full autonomy,” he said.
Date of hire was the past practice when US Air merged with Piedmont and with PSA. It would have worked out well for the generally younger America West pilots, the pilot said, because half of the US Airways pilots were within six years of retirement. “We had a large amount of attrition coming,” the pilot said. “West pilots would benefit, although not immediately.”
Of course, when the Federal Aviation Administration raised the retirement age to 65 in 2009, the benefit was delayed for everybody.
In any case, the merger committee did not present a date of hire list, but rather “adjusted longevity.” Some US Airways pilots had been furloughed three times, for as long as eight or nine years altogether in a 12-year career: they would be credited in such a case for just four years. In the landmark 1971 Allegheny-Mohawk merger, laid off Mohawk pilots got credit for their longevity.
Another major problem with the furloughed pilot list was that Nicolau decided to include pilots who, at the time of the merger, were flying Embraer 170s for regional carrier MidAtlantic Airways.
MidAtlantic was on the US Airways certificate and its pilots were paying ALPA dues. But some had sued ALPA for not properly representing them when they went to MidAtlantic from the mainline in order to avoid being laid off. ALPA provided Nicolau with a seniority list that said they were furloughed – Nicolau just followed ALPA’s lead.
Continued from page 1
Nicolau’s slotting ratio has also been questioned. After placing 518 US Airways pilots at the top of the list, Nicolau slotted pilots from the two airlines, taking two US Airways pilots and then one America West pilot, but sometimes slotting at one for one. A different slotting formula, combined with some consideration for furloughed pilots, might have made the list palatable to east pilots, the pilot said.
Instead, at its most contentious point, the Nicolau ruling placed a 56-year-old pilot with 17 years at US Airways, never laid off, behind a 35-year-old America West pilot with a few months on the job. In hundreds of similar cases, US Airways pilots with 15 or more years at the carrier went behind America West pilots with just a few years.
Ted Reed ,
CONTRIBUTOR
I've been covering the airline industry since 1989.
Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own.
The controversial seniority award that forever scarred the 2005 US Airways/America West merger is often viewed as a case where one side refused to compromise on a “date of hire” seniority list, an arbitrator issued a one-sided ruling and then the other side refused to compromise.
But one former leader of the US Airways chapter of the Air Line Pilots Association says US Airways pilots never insisted on date of hire.
Rather, he said, pilot leaders from “the east” offered something different: “longevity” credit for the 1,900 pilots laid off at the time of the merger. In other words, a laid-off pilot would get credit for the years he worked, not for the years since he was hired.
Additionally, the pilot said in a recent interview, if arbitrator George Nicolau had adopted a different ratio for the integration of US Airways and America West pilots, Nicolau’s ruling might not have turned into the roadblock it has become.
Nine years after the merger, the two pilot groups still have separate seniority lists. The pilot asked not to be named because he is no longer a union official.
Following the 2013 American/US Airways merger, the problems associated with Nicolau’s binding seniority award become the problems of the Allied Pilots Association, which represents the 15,000 American pilots.
Two other pilot unions and a succession of judges have failed to solve those problems, and it seems fair to say that the vast majority of people from America West, American, and US Airways are hoping that APA can successfully craft an acceptable compromise.
Since 2007 Jack Stephan, the last president of the US Airways chapter of the Air Line Pilots Association, has maintained that that some pilot leaders from US Airways failed to seek to compromise at a critical junction early that year when Nicolau, after hearing days of testimony, asked the two sides to come back and try to make a deal.
The master executive committee “was uncomfortable with providing our merger committee with the authority to move off our original position,” Stephan said in an interview for my book, “American Airlines, US Airways and the Creation of the World’s Largest Airline,” which will be published next month. “Nobody on the MEC wanted to be the guy who backed off DOH.”
But the former pilot leader, who acknowledges he was considered to be a hard-liner, said the MEC did not tell the merger committee not to negotiate. It just questioned the wisdom of the committee making a late change in its position. “The merger committee had full autonomy,” he said.
Date of hire was the past practice when US Air merged with Piedmont and with PSA. It would have worked out well for the generally younger America West pilots, the pilot said, because half of the US Airways pilots were within six years of retirement. “We had a large amount of attrition coming,” the pilot said. “West pilots would benefit, although not immediately.”
Of course, when the Federal Aviation Administration raised the retirement age to 65 in 2009, the benefit was delayed for everybody.
In any case, the merger committee did not present a date of hire list, but rather “adjusted longevity.” Some US Airways pilots had been furloughed three times, for as long as eight or nine years altogether in a 12-year career: they would be credited in such a case for just four years. In the landmark 1971 Allegheny-Mohawk merger, laid off Mohawk pilots got credit for their longevity.
Another major problem with the furloughed pilot list was that Nicolau decided to include pilots who, at the time of the merger, were flying Embraer 170s for regional carrier MidAtlantic Airways.
MidAtlantic was on the US Airways certificate and its pilots were paying ALPA dues. But some had sued ALPA for not properly representing them when they went to MidAtlantic from the mainline in order to avoid being laid off. ALPA provided Nicolau with a seniority list that said they were furloughed – Nicolau just followed ALPA’s lead.
Continued from page 1
Nicolau’s slotting ratio has also been questioned. After placing 518 US Airways pilots at the top of the list, Nicolau slotted pilots from the two airlines, taking two US Airways pilots and then one America West pilot, but sometimes slotting at one for one. A different slotting formula, combined with some consideration for furloughed pilots, might have made the list palatable to east pilots, the pilot said.
Instead, at its most contentious point, the Nicolau ruling placed a 56-year-old pilot with 17 years at US Airways, never laid off, behind a 35-year-old America West pilot with a few months on the job. In hundreds of similar cases, US Airways pilots with 15 or more years at the carrier went behind America West pilots with just a few years.
Ferguson, Koontz, Vasin, Simmons gross miscalculation.
2004 Hire Ferguson risked it all for senior awa pilots. Vasin, Braid, Kothny piled on. High risk, no reward.
Ferguson will re load Marty Harper for another 10 year legal field trip to nowhere.
More delay, exactly what east and LAA pilots want.
2004 Hire Ferguson risked it all for senior awa pilots. Vasin, Braid, Kothny piled on. High risk, no reward.
Ferguson will re load Marty Harper for another 10 year legal field trip to nowhere.
More delay, exactly what east and LAA pilots want.
- May 8, 2007
- 3,146
- 3,236
Cats out of the bag. Speculation over.
No Nic.
No LAA list.
Company Happy with list. Little training movement (hence costs).
LAA and AOL objected strenuously.
LAA threatened arbitrators with lawsuit.
Ferguson leaving board to lead AOL lawsuit.
LUS found that arbitrators mistakenly used data that they needed to correct (they readily saw their mistake and agreed) thereby favorably affecting LUS pilots.
However:
no mention on percentage going to LOS/Status.
no mention on when list will be out.
no mention on when the West/APA will file lawsuits against the award but that they WILL be forthcoming.
Stand by for NEWS!
No Nic.
No LAA list.
Company Happy with list. Little training movement (hence costs).
LAA and AOL objected strenuously.
LAA threatened arbitrators with lawsuit.
Ferguson leaving board to lead AOL lawsuit.
LUS found that arbitrators mistakenly used data that they needed to correct (they readily saw their mistake and agreed) thereby favorably affecting LUS pilots.
However:
no mention on percentage going to LOS/Status.
no mention on when list will be out.
no mention on when the West/APA will file lawsuits against the award but that they WILL be forthcoming.
Stand by for NEWS!
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