2015 Pilot Discussion.

[EastUS1]

Whew!...Seriously? Do you ever even read your own posts? Your entire posting history is nothing more than a vast pile of passive-aggressive rantings and nonsensical "poor-pitiful-me" whining sessions that could be best summarized with "Waah!...Mommy!..These other kids are being mean to me! Please tell them just how truly 'righteous' and 'special' I really am and DEMAND that they hand all their toys over to me!"....Thanks for the dependable laughs

 
My union representation was stolen and replaced by a hostile scab union, found guilty of a DFR violation, willing to work for sub union wages to steal the benefits of the merger from their West co-workers.
 
Fact!
 
Neither the east or the West have what they brought to the merger.
 
The West lost 24 aircraft and 300+ pilots, some furloughed out of seniority in violation of the TA at the scab unions request.
 
Meanwhile, the east recalled through an entire list of 1800 furloughed pilots, took delivery of all growth airplanes and worked for scab wages.  Congrats!!

 
Previously covered above, but this most recent "Waah!" or yours is additionally filed. Sgh...Well son; think of it all as a lifetime lesson. Not to be unduly mean here, but had "you'se" not conducted yourselves as nothing more than a rabid tribe of greed-soaked and purely delusional, childish cretins, well...your "actual mileage" might well have proved far less onerous...Just sayin'....

 

[FL430]

Oh,  another internet typo grammar Nazi    
 
The only difference between you and a scab is that  when a scab tries to steal a job he doesn't pretend what he is doing is honorable.

It's not a typo; it happens so much with you it's an indication of a defect or injury within the parietal or temporal lobe portions of your brain. But then again the content of your posts here has left the readers to conclude pretty much the same. Were you ever dropped on your head as a child?

" Because of the way that he changes sides, his name quickly became a byword in the United States for treason or betrayal. His conflicting legacy is recalled in the ambiguous nature of some of the memorials that have been placed in his honor." ( Wikipedia quote of Benedict Arnold)

Reminds me of you Trader, you are so honorable. Good thing you were never accepted in the military, I mean how much damage can you do working for an airline?

Carry on with your bulls**t Lt Hardy.

 

[FL430]

The only difference between you and a scab is that when a scab tries to steal a man's job his doesn't pretend what he does is honorable.  
 
PS   It's clear to all that you have father issues.  

It's also clear to all that you have intelligence issues. Did you ride the short bus to school?

 

[traderjake]

It's not a typo; it happens so much with you it's an indication of a defect or injury within the parietal or temporal lobe portions of your brain. But then again the content of your posts here has left the readers to conclude pretty much the same. Were you ever dropped on your head as a child?

 
Sure sport, whatever you say.
 
I predicted how Nicolau would rule and that the West  would get a Merger Committee.
 
You might try taking an ethics class or going to church, it's not too late. 

 

[FL430]

Sure sport, whatever you say.
 
I predicted how Nicolau would rule and that the West  would get a Merger Committee.
 
You might try taking an ethics class or going to church, it's not too late.

Since you are so good at predictions how's that stock market portfolio doing for you. Yea, just what I thought, you are still a right seat wonder yanking gear. And you are the last person on this planet that needs to be giving advice on ethics or religion. And it appears finance and aviation as well from the observations of pi brat.
Please go schedule an MRI or CAT scan for yourself.

 

[Phoenix]

Since you are so good at predictions how's that stock market portfolio doing for you. Yea, just what I thought, you are still a right seat wonder yanking gear. And you are the last person on this planet that needs to be giving advice on ethics or religion. And it appears finance and aviation as well from the observations of pi brat.
Please go schedule an MRI or CAT scan for yourself.

 
 
 
Personally I don't fault him for staying an FO to get the trips he wants.  Upgrading could easily cost him 5 more days of work (much uglier work).  
 
Be that as it may, get used to him being an FO.. If the Arbs use the NIC, and agree that the LAA pilots should have no harm from it, then the Arbs will push all LUS pilots (and especially the East) so far down that he will have to wait another 15 years to be senior enough to upgrade as a captain on his dream pairings.  
 
But at least he will be able to sign on to the board and tell us "I told you so" while overnighting in his glorious room at the Crowne Plaza at BDL, as a new American Airlines FO.  

 

[Claxon]

Sure sport, whatever you say.
 
I predicted how Nicolau would rule and that the West  would get a Merger Committee.
 
You might try taking an ethics class or going to church, it's not too late.

Yes, you can attend the Church of Jim Jones, the style of church CB53 frequents with his west Fire and Brimstone jihadist Nic theology.
Reality sinking into the Fishbowl. Another east bid with huge wide body slots. Had the 2004 hires Vasin, Ferguson and Koontz not hijacked the process, the Nic would be in place and west pilots would be bidding those slots.
Too bad. Meanwhile, east pilots are moving on up.........

 

[Claxon]

http://youtu.be/MYcqToQzzGY

 

[Claxon]

. Maybe the reality of what we are up against is finally sinking in. Some accused us of taking the quotes from the Freund rebuttal out of context. We didnt. Weve had requests for copies of Jeff Freunds actual East Vs West court documents. The file is too big to be directly cut and pasted. We can forward it in a scanned PDF-ZIP/Scan format. Just email us. Remember, we have no website, no budget and receive no donations. Maybe someone will paste it as an attachment on the AWAPPA web board for all to view. We would do it ourselves, but weve all been banned from the AWAPPA web board since May.

We have also received additional comments on what happened at Wye River from both sides. While our initial reporting appears to be correct and consistent with the latest accounts, it was incomplete. Heres additional information from both sides.

According to our reports, on Day One of Wye River, Jeff Freund warned the West MEC that if USAPA won, the West risked losing everything. He urged reaching an agreement. He was gone on Day Two. We wont address his motivation for leaving.
As Jeff Freund observed in his rebuttal to the East MEC lawsuit, the NIC was not in stone. And the loss of ALPA put it in real trouble. At least ALPA had the obligation, through the ALPA Merger Policy, to attempt to get the company to use the NIC Award.

ALPAs lawyers knew the list was negotiable, but they never told either rank and file. We attended last summers ALPA road shows in PHX, starring Paul Rice and a cast of ALPA attorneys. Did ALPA ever hint that the NIC was negotiable? We believe it was for fear of fanning the flames and drawing more support for USAPA that Herndon kept that from us. They did tell all the Wye River attendees the reality. One side listened, the other didnt.

In last summers East Vs West lawsuit, the East used ALPA DUES MONEY and an ALPA-Approved attorney, Roland Wilder, to pursue the case. As far as we can determine, we had to use our own Merger Fund money to defend ourselves. Thanks for choosing sides, ALPA! In the likely event that the NIC will be trashed in a single contract, it will be our own voluntary contributions that will have to be raised for a DFR lawsuit. USAPA expects it, so we shouldnt disappoint them. This could be an extremely costly effort that could drag on for years. U-Turn is not discouraging filing a DFR, and we need closure.

Jeff Freund is a top-notch lawyer. We have no doubt that he told our MEC the truth about how negotiable the NIC really was. The question is: why didnt CJ, Bendett, et al, listen? We figure that they either didnt believe him or after all their hairy-chested resolutions and hotlines, they were afraid to back down. What good are attorneys if you dont take their advice?

There is one other possibility. We mentioned it in a previous U-Turn. Our union leaders believed that the USAPA vote would be close (razors edge, to quote one of them) and that it was worth holding out and rolling the dice, figuring that if ALPA survived, so would the NIC. Too bad ALPA didnt explain the importance of the 30% of East pilots who refused to participate in the Wilson Polling.

We now have a better picture what the East MEC had on the table: an 8 year fence, furloughs by longevity (LOS), MDA time not counting for longevity, Dave ODell having 400 pilots below him, and the Nic surviving as THE LIST. Yes, the East offered the NIC. They just wanted to protect their retirement attrition, which stalled by the change in Age-60. Looking back, that offer must look like a home run to any West pilot right now, but last February the EAST MEC and ALPA couldnt get to first base with it.

Our former MEC and our union leadership played a very high stakes game of poker by not dealing at Wye River. Freund was right, we were risking everything..and right now, it looks like we lost. They need to take responsibility for that.

U-Turn

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Sure sport, whatever you say.
 
I predicted how Nicolau would rule and that the West  would get a Merger Committee.
 
You might try taking an ethics class or going to church, it's not too late.

. Hey Dan let us talk about ethics, you want to go to Miami and take a job from someone, now keep in mind we , US east has no base there but your double standard justifies it hilarious!

 

[AA76LRdvr]

. Hey Dan let us talk about ethics, you want to go to Miami and take a job from someone, now keep in mind we , US east has no base there but your double standard justifies it hilarious!

He's in good company with his west friends, birds of a feather.

 

[Claxon]

The U-Turn has received a number of e-mails blaming Doug Parker and the company for the mess the pilot group finds itself entangled in. When you don’t have control, it’s always easy to find a scapegoat. But regardless of what you think of company management, be sure to place the blame where it belongs. Don’t get us wrong, sometimes it appears the company works overtime to make our life harder. Your anger at the company this time is misplaced and this U-Turn tells why.

Regardless of the company’s motives, I can tell you that prior to my leaving office in January 2006, we were moving quickly to wrap up a Tentative Agreement to put out to both East and West for a vote. The cooperation between the company and the JNC to get it done was at its height. When I left office, we were at the most 2 to 3 months away from a TA. The last outstanding items left were pay (within reach, off by a few dollars) and retirement. These are not my words but that of the negotiating committee and the company negotiators, presented to both MECs.

Where did things stand in January 2006?

1) The company wanted a single contract before the results of the Nicolau arbitration. The company knew the complications if this contract was not done before the seniority award. Obviously DAL and NWA learned from our mistakes.
2) The company was beginning to feel handcuffed by the Transition Agreement and the company needed out of it fast.
3) Our negotiators reported that the company was not stalling at the table. In fact just the opposite was happening, with sections we allowed weeks to negotiate being wrapped up in only a day.
4) Mark Burdick was coming back to the MEC with contract improvements we never thought possible.

So what Happened?

The pilots chose to change course and removed Frank and myself with the rest of C-62 Reps in the fall 2005 elections. Don’t blame the company on that. The new dream team went right to work with no knowledge or understanding of where we were or what we had accomplished.

Their first action was starting to fight with the East, undoing all the work we did to be a unified pilot group. We would never agree on seniority but we agreed on practically everything else. They never understood the T/A language and never asked for our help. Barely two months into their terms, they started removing the negotiating team and replacing them with the same people that gave us C-04. Mark Burdick was marginalized and eventually removed, replaced by Doug Dotter. Dotter’s ego and mistrust of the East doomed all the work we had all already completed. He was constantly reopening already completed sections. If not for all the reopening and second guessing of the work already completed, we would have voted on a TA on long before the NIC arbitration even began. With a single contract, the NIC would have been in effect when the NIC award came out.

While JNC negotiations were bogging down, this new MEC didn’t file disputes on the few protections we had in the TA. Meanwhile, the MEC tried to get rid of the Merger Committee. Thankfully they failed. None of this was the company’s doing. It was the result of a new MEC attempting to destroy all the work that had been completed before they took office. Blame the company? No. It’s about time we recognize those who were really responsible.

It’s time to take a good look in the rear-view mirror. If we had a single contract in place, the NIC would also be in place. Sure, we would probably still have USAPA. But long before the East removed ALPA, we would have been operating under a single contract, with the Nicolau seniority list in place. Next time you go to a training center brown bag lunch, before you go after the company and the East, keep in mind how close we were to a TA prior to the NIC. We did it to ourselves, guys.

Dave Blomgren, for the U-Turn

NEXT U-Turn: More details on what we lost and how we lost it.

Anyone wishing to comment on this or any other U-Turn is welcome to reply. Just keep in mind our requirements of no personal attacks and no deliberate misrepresentations.

 

[traderjake]

If you're not taking flak you're not over the target.
 
 

 

[traderjake]

. Hey Dan let us talk about ethics, you want to go to Miami and take a job from someone, now keep in mind we , US east has no base there but your double standard justifies it hilarious!

 
Same moronic USAPA mindset.
 
It's going to be one airline, not three, and there are a lot of LAA pilots that want to go to CLT.

 

[Claxon]

Guys, for the last year we’ve heard all the reasons why the Nicolau award is binding on the company and now binding on USAPA, even though it was done under ALPA Merger Policy. According to the TA:

IV. Seniority List Integration
A. The seniority lists of America West pilots and US Airways pilots will be integrated in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy and submitted to the Airline Parties for acceptance. The Airline Parties will accept such integrated seniority list, including conditions and restrictions, if such list and the conditions and restrictions comply with the following criteria:
1. no “system flush” whereby an active pilot may displace any other active pilot from the latter’s Position; and
2. furloughed pilots may not bump/displace active pilots; and
3. no requirement for pilots to be compensated for flying not performed (e.g., differential pay for a position not actually flown); and
4. allows pilots who, at the time of implementation of an integrated seniority list, are in the process of completing or who have completed initial qualification training for a new category (e.g., A320 Captain or 757 First Officer) to be assigned to the position for which they have been trained, regardless of their relative standing on the integrated seniority list; and
5. does not contain conditions and restrictions that materially increase costs associated with training or company paid moves.

U-Turn has always believed the NIC had to be accepted. The TA speaks for itself, or does it? Today, we’re not so sure. There was Doug Parker’s statement in the Training Center on July 8th that he thought the NIC was negotiable (“we’ll see what happens…we won’t draw line in the sand”). That statement tracks with what our own Merger Attorney wrote in court-filed papers last summer. He said the company has no obligation to accept the Nicolau Award. Read the next paragraph from his response to last summer’s absurd East MEC Vs West MEC law suit. The East MEC was the “plaintiff.” Freund’s reply to the East MEC lawsuit (emphasis added):

1.Thus, the “arbitration award” Plaintiffs purportedly seek to “vacate” is in actuality the proposed pilot seniority list developed through ALPA’s Merger policy that ALPA will adopt as its bargaining position to be presented to the Company, but which (like a union bargaining position in any matter) the Company is not required to accept. Application, Ex.1 at 2,9 (ALPA will present to the company the merged seniority list developed through ALPA’s Merger policy arbitration procedures, and “ALPA will use all reasonable means at its disposal to compel the company to accept and implement the merged seniority list”). Plaintiffs seek review of this ALPA bargaining position developed through ALPA Merger Policy, and, while couching it in the terms of “vacating” and “arbitration,” the relief they actually seek is a review of the product of ALPA’s Merger Policy, and, ultimately, alteration of ALPA’s bargaining proposal to the company…Plaintiff’s Application to “vacate” an “arbitration award” that does not establish any enforceable seniority rights in a collective bargaining agreement with the Company, but which merely sets out ALPA’s bargaining position to be presented to the company, is not a state law claim at all but rather an artfully pled Federal claim for breech of Duty of Fair Representation.

Our MEC’s merger (and now AWAPPA’s) attorney said the NIC was “in actuality the proposed seniority list developed through ALPA’s Merger policy that ALPA will adopt as its bargaining position to be presented to the company, but which…the company is not required to accept,” that it is “only a part of ALPA overall bargaining proposal,” and that NIC “does not establish any enforceable seniority rights in a collective bargaining agreement with the Company.” The way we read the above is that since the Nicolau seniority list isn’t enforceable on the company, the East had no right to challenge it last summer.

If you think we’re taking the above out of context, Google and read the entire response, prepared by West Merger Attorney. Case 1:07-cv-01309-EGS Document 1 Filed 07/24/2007 Freund’s response for the West MEC is 125 pages, but the important pages are 3-6. They spell out exactly what our Merger attorney thinks about whether the company must accept the NIC. According to him, they don’t.

There is no doubt at U-Turn that if the NIC Award is scrapped there will be a DFR lawsuit. In fact, U-Turn has long supported a DFR lawsuit if the NIC is gone. If for nothing else, we need to clear the air and exhaust all our legal options. USAPA has to be expecting a DFR as soon as there’s a single contract dumping the NIC. Their expectations of winning are as high as ours. Unfortunately for us, the bar in winning a DFR is high. How could the Freund comments above help?

Before we raise the money to file that DFR lawsuit, the movers and shakers who plan on putting it together ought to reread what our own Merger Attorney said about whether the NIC was binding on the company. Those quotes above could come back to haunt us. Our own attorney can’t have it both ways.

And when we’re deciding who to DFR, just remember this quote out of the ALPA Merger Policy Manual: “ALPA will use all reasonable means at its disposal to compel the company to accept and implement the merged seniority list.” Did they? With the way ALPA treated us, maybe we ought to give some real thought about who to DFR.

Dave Blomgren, for U-Turn

(Once again, U-Turn has tried to be fair and balanced, presenting the facts and then giving our take. You decide. Anyone wishing to comment, please feel free to respond.)