100,000+ Employees for the new AA/US

[eolesen]

I'm surprised that more TW weren't interested in the VEOP…? You'd think they would love to leave.

What other job can replace the pay, benefits and lifestyle?... 

a simple apples to apples employee number comparison between AA and other carriers may not be fair, when you consider the extra services AA is involved in (ground handing contracts, mx, overhaul, etc). I would be interested to see if our revenue per employee is competitive to other carriers, however

Ground handling contracts are usually done to maximize productivity of existing headcount -- rarely are there significant incremental heads added as a result of handling someone else's one flight per day. Same thing with contract maintenance. Health & retirement benefits costs are pretty much fixed by the employee's status more than how many hours a day the employee works.

Personally, I consider revenue per employee as a pretty useless measure. It's a nice statistic to roll out once in a while, but what's the significance unless you can also easily compare the average cost per employee (i.e. the combined wages + benefits)??

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

Ground handling contracts are usually done to maximize productivity of existing headcount -- rarely are there significant incremental heads added as a result of handling someone else's one flight per day. Same thing with contract maintenance. Health & retirement benefits costs are pretty much fixed by the employee's status more than how many hours a day the employee works.

Personally, I consider revenue per employee as a pretty useless measure. It's a nice statistic to roll out once in a while, but what's the significance unless you can also easily compare the average cost per employee (i.e. the combined wages + benefits)??

 
Fair enough, but then I'm left wondering why we need so many more employees to run similarly-sized operation. I assume the ground handling and maintenance contracts are pretty profitable, though, considering no extra employees are necessary to handle them?

 

[silverbird007]

Another thing to remember is the combined fleet AA/US will be over 950 mainline jets compared to slightly over 700 at both UA and DL. We may have more narrowbodies but 250 more jets requires a lot more employees

 

[jimntx]

Hey, no need to be pedantic, it was no dis on anyone, I was just goin for a lil brevity there.

Hey, not trying to be pedantic. Trying to be fair. They had as much say in the AA-TWA combination as you and I had in the AA-US combination. (Don't make the mistake (or, in some cases, state the outright lie ) that AA was TWA's only hope. Boeing was also bidding for TWA, and AA won because they offered the big boys a better payoff. I know you are shocked.

And, since the "TW" reference is usually stated in a sneering way, I think it should be dropped. There was a f/a at STL that used to use that term while curling her lip as if she was saying "unclean" in the Hindu reference. I asked her one day if I should start referring to her as "one of those Reno f/as" (which she had been)? She got highly insulted.

We are all AA f/as working under the same contract and conditions. Be grateful we weren't taken over by a larger airline that might make all of us "junior" again.

 

[jimntx]

Another thing to remember is the combined fleet AA/US will be over 950 mainline jets compared to slightly over 700 at both UA and DL. We may have more narrowbodies but 250 more jets requires a lot more employees

But, that is just part of the point. In revenue and routes we (combined AA-US) are only slightly larger than DL and UA; yet, we have 38% more airplanes. What are we doing with those extra 250 a/c? Evidently, we are not generating revenue (and, especially profits) with them. So, those extra employees needed to fly and maintain those a/c may not be needed, either.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Jim,
you are being way too logical and analytical about this.

You apparently also won't be surprised or in denial when the cuts come.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

Hey, not trying to be pedantic. Trying to be fair. They had as much say in the AA-TWA combination as you and I had in the AA-US combination. (Don't make the mistake (or, in some cases, state the outright lie ) that AA was TWA's only hope. Boeing was also bidding for TWA, and AA won because they offered the big boys a better payoff. I know you are shocked.

And, since the "TW" reference is usually stated in a sneering way, I think it should be dropped. There was a f/a at STL that used to use that term while curling her lip as if she was saying "unclean" in the Hindu reference. I asked her one day if I should start referring to her as "one of those Reno f/as" (which she had been)? She got highly insulted.

We are all AA f/as working under the same contract and conditions. Be grateful we weren't taken over by a larger airline that might make all of us "junior" again.

 
I totally agree; I would never sneer at anything TWA; I'm from a TWA family, my dad is a furloughed TW pilot (he's deferred his recall) however because of that, I feel I have a good perspective on both sides, and I don't appreciate many of the former TW flight attendants who are trying for an AFA card campaign or a representational election that is going to accomplish jack all other than kick the can down the road and further delay the negotiation of a contract for us all.
 
I understand they have an ugly cross to bear from the APFA but what exactly do they hope to accomplish? I know there is a letter from Veda Shook that's been floating around for some time that a few might interpret to mean that AFA would work to restore their seniority, but why even bother when the numbers simply do not allow anything like that to happen. I would be willing to bet that even if every single US flight attendant and every former TW flight attendant voted AFA, they would still lose. Then where would we be? Pretty much the same place we are right now.
 
Edit: I was not aware that Boeing put in a bid for TWA though; thanks for that. Although what interest they would have in owning a nearly bankrupt airline is something unknown?

 

[silverbird007]

This topic is about why does AA/US have more employees then UA and DL. It takes more employees to operate 950 planes vs 700 planes. Also didn't AA report a profit in Oct? in Sept? After all the cuts (pensions, insurance etc etc?) There is no guarantee any company including United, Delta or even Walmart will make a profit next month or next year. AA has as good a chance as any other company. Do you think AA falsified documents when they reported the last few months?

 

[jimntx]

Did I say they didn't make a profit?  No.  Did I suggest that their 10-K was falsified?  No.  You misunderstand.
 
And, this thread is not about why AA-US has more employees than DL or UA.  This thread is about the fact that they do.  Yes, we have more planes--you specified 250.  Even 250 a/c do not require an additional 18,000 employees.  Besides, you are missing the point that we have approx. 38% more a/c than DL or UA, but we are just barely besting those two in revenue, and that's assuming that AA and US are already combined, but making the same profits we have both announced.  There is definitely a productivity issue.  Having 37,500 more seats to sell (assuming an average of 150 seats/airplane), but producing just a little bit more revenue is a problem.  If you can't see that, I'm not sure how to explain it to you.

 

[silverbird007]

Ok WT your proxy is not working! I know who you are! Nice try tho....LOL

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

Frontier Airlines had 5,500 employees for only 56 a/c. 18,000 more for 250 addl a/c seems pretty fair, actually

 

[jimntx]

Ok WT your proxy is not working! I know who you are! Nice try tho....LOL

Wrong again!  I'm a DFW-D f/a.  I am a "native" American.  Never worked for any other airline.

 

[silverbird007]

Busted! You walked right into that one!! WT

 

[jimntx]

Frontier Airlines had 5,500 employees for only 56 a/c. 18,000 more for 250 addl a/c seems pretty fair, actually

If you mean the current Frontier Airlines as opposed to the late lamented Frontier from the past, may I point out that they are on their financial uppers without having all those pesky unions to deal with.  I have a close friend who flies for them, and she has been trying to organize the f/as for the last 8 years or so with no luck.
 
Their finances are so bad that even Republic is trying to get rid of them.  However, the proposed buyers will not go through with the deal without major concessions from some of the workgroups; so, who knows what's going to happen there over the next 12 months or so.
 
As far as trying to find a formula for #ofemployees per a/c, not sure it can be done.  As an airline gets bigger, you need fewer per additional a/c because a lot of the "fixed" cost and staff are already in place.  With an airline the size of AA, you don't have to have a new set of gate agents, rampers, and mechanics every time you add one a/c to the fleet or even 10 new a/c to the fleet.  Nor do you need additional support staff like managers, clerks, etc every time you add a plane. 

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

If you mean the current Frontier Airlines as opposed to the late lamented Frontier from the past, may I point out that they are on their financial uppers without having all those pesky unions to deal with.  I have a close friend who flies for them, and she has been trying to organize the f/as for the last 8 years or so with no luck.
 
Their finances are so bad that even Republic is trying to get rid of them.  However, the proposed buyers will not go through with the deal without major concessions from some of the workgroups; so, who knows what's going to happen there over the next 12 months or so.
 
As far as trying to find a formula for #ofemployees per a/c, not sure it can be done.  As an airline gets bigger, you need fewer per additional a/c because a lot of the "fixed" cost and staff are already in place.  With an airline the size of AA, you don't have to have a new set of gate agents, rampers, and mechanics every time you add one a/c to the fleet or even 10 new a/c to the fleet.  Nor do you need additional support staff like managers, clerks, etc every time you add a plane. 

 
You're right; Frontier probably isn't the most compatible yardstick to measure against, I just intended to throw that out there as a talking point because it is the only statistical comparison between # of airplanes and employees that I know off the top of my dome. However your union remark confused me-- check with your friend again, the flight attendants elected AFA as their bargaining representative back in 2010 and voted in a CBA shortly thereafter.