Will AA Mechanics be Next?
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[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/25/2003 8:12:13 AM flyhigh wrote:
[P]As for the statement that maybe the lack of overhaul at WN and maybe that's why they voted for AMFA...uhm, that would be the stupidest, most moronic, careless move AMFA could make in "representing" mechanics at WN. Should they choose to fight that fight, it would definitely convince me that AMFA, like most unions, has no clue on how to run a business, no are they concerned about the business their members work for. WN is one of, if not he, safest commercial carriers in the US, and possible the world. They've never had overhaul as part of their company. Why start now? [BR][BR]----------------[/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P][BR][BR]Do you have the hard facts on why the mechanics went AMFA?[BR][BR]I would suspect the non-overhaul played a role. In exhange for non-overhaul the WN mechanics have been the highest paid in the industry in the past. [BR][BR]All of the sudden that exhange stoppped and their dues were raised.[BR][BR]Nobody said the AMFA was going to demand an overhaul base. It was simply pointed that non-overhaul could have been a factor in creating disgruntled employees.[BR][BR]With each new added flight comes the higher risk of a terrible accident. Larger does not always mean better and safer.[BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/25/2003 8:12:13 AM flyhigh wrote:
[P]As for the statement that maybe the lack of overhaul at WN and maybe that's why they voted for AMFA...uhm, that would be the stupidest, most moronic, careless move AMFA could make in "representing" mechanics at WN. Should they choose to fight that fight, it would definitely convince me that AMFA, like most unions, has no clue on how to run a business, no are they concerned about the business their members work for. WN is one of, if not he, safest commercial carriers in the US, and possible the world. They've never had overhaul as part of their company. Why start now? [BR][BR]----------------[/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P][BR][BR]Do you have the hard facts on why the mechanics went AMFA?[BR][BR]I would suspect the non-overhaul played a role. In exhange for non-overhaul the WN mechanics have been the highest paid in the industry in the past. [BR][BR]All of the sudden that exhange stoppped and their dues were raised.[BR][BR]Nobody said the AMFA was going to demand an overhaul base. It was simply pointed that non-overhaul could have been a factor in creating disgruntled employees.[BR][BR]With each new added flight comes the higher risk of a terrible accident. Larger does not always mean better and safer.[BR][BR]
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[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/25/2003 8:30:32 AM KCFlyer wrote: [BR][BR]Which is better RV4 - never having overhaul and keeping all mechanics employed, or having overhaul and laying off mechanics to outsource in a "cost saving" measure. [BR][BR]----------------[BR][BR]Again, the topic is union representation.[BR][BR]Is it the union's decision on the choices you present? I would submit that your questions are better served in a management/bean counter meeting room.[BR][BR]Given your logic, answering these questions will not do SQUAT to change AA or AA employee's current situation, therefore it is fruitless to discuss it or consider. There are more pressing issues...right?[BR][/BLOCKQUOTE]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/25/2003 8:30:32 AM KCFlyer wrote: [BR][BR]Which is better RV4 - never having overhaul and keeping all mechanics employed, or having overhaul and laying off mechanics to outsource in a "cost saving" measure. [BR][BR]----------------[BR][BR]Again, the topic is union representation.[BR][BR]Is it the union's decision on the choices you present? I would submit that your questions are better served in a management/bean counter meeting room.[BR][BR]Given your logic, answering these questions will not do SQUAT to change AA or AA employee's current situation, therefore it is fruitless to discuss it or consider. There are more pressing issues...right?[BR][/BLOCKQUOTE]
- Aug 20, 2002
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On 1/25/2003 8:30:32 AM KCFlyer wrote:
Which is better RV4 - never having overhaul and keeping all mechanics employed, or having overhaul and laying off mechanics to outsource in a "cost saving" measure.
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KCFlyer:
Should the mechanics take a stand on keeping large numbers employeed or attempt to keep their wages at that of their peers in the industry? By having a union where Fleet Service has voting control, it is their voice that votes on the mechanic craft and class. These requests from the company to waive our contractual raise, if voted on, we be controlled by the Fleet Service group. Fleet Service, I believe could take a wage concession and still be compensated at the high end of their peer group? It is the company who has been blowing WN's horn. They want to be like WN. Contracting out of the base overhaul?, Then lets remove our international package also.
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On 1/25/2003 8:30:32 AM KCFlyer wrote:
Which is better RV4 - never having overhaul and keeping all mechanics employed, or having overhaul and laying off mechanics to outsource in a "cost saving" measure.
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[/blockquote]
KCFlyer:
Should the mechanics take a stand on keeping large numbers employeed or attempt to keep their wages at that of their peers in the industry? By having a union where Fleet Service has voting control, it is their voice that votes on the mechanic craft and class. These requests from the company to waive our contractual raise, if voted on, we be controlled by the Fleet Service group. Fleet Service, I believe could take a wage concession and still be compensated at the high end of their peer group? It is the company who has been blowing WN's horn. They want to be like WN. Contracting out of the base overhaul?, Then lets remove our international package also.
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On 1/25/2003 9:06:41 AM Hopeful wrote:
RV4, Did you not mention USAIRWAYS pension in your last post? Union representaion has an awful lot to do with workers security and retirement!
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The union may or may not have negotiated the parameters of the pensions of the employees they represent. But I would say that there is not any union that is going to stop the trend of Pension Raiding and under funding of any company.
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On 1/25/2003 9:06:41 AM Hopeful wrote:
RV4, Did you not mention USAIRWAYS pension in your last post? Union representaion has an awful lot to do with workers security and retirement!
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The union may or may not have negotiated the parameters of the pensions of the employees they represent. But I would say that there is not any union that is going to stop the trend of Pension Raiding and under funding of any company.
Hopeful
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RV4:
AA, like most other companies did not have to take too much money out of their pockets to fund their pensions because the market had been doing well up until 2-3 years ago. It was almost self sustaining. But when the market started its decline, AA, like most other companies, did not meet their pension fund obligations. Hence, today, AA's is grossly underfunded. No way are they gonna put $1 or 2$ billion dollars in the fund because they are going to get Congress to change the pension funds which will relieve them of their obligations.
AA, like most other companies did not have to take too much money out of their pockets to fund their pensions because the market had been doing well up until 2-3 years ago. It was almost self sustaining. But when the market started its decline, AA, like most other companies, did not meet their pension fund obligations. Hence, today, AA's is grossly underfunded. No way are they gonna put $1 or 2$ billion dollars in the fund because they are going to get Congress to change the pension funds which will relieve them of their obligations.
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[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/25/2003 7:51:58 AM Hopeful wrote:
[P]RV4:[BR][BR]No way are they gonna put $1 or 2$ billion dollars in the fund because they are going to get Congress to change the pension funds which will relieve them of their obligations.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]What planet are you on? Do you have a crystal ball that predicts a change of attitude in the Senate?[BR][BR]WASHINGTON, Jan 22 (Reuters) - [STRONG]The U.S. Senate killed a proposal late on Wednesday to allow US Airways Group Inc. to restructure payments to its employee pension system, increasing chances the bankrupt carrier will terminate its pilots' retirement plan. [BR][/STRONG][BR]The chamber voted to table a bipartisan amendment to a spending bill offered by Arlen Specter, a Pennsylvania Republican, and backed by the pilots' union and the carrier. [/P]
[P]The proposal would have allowed US Airways to string out $3.1 billion in underfunded pension payments over 30 years. The current schedule is seven years.
[P]David Siegel, the company's president and chief executive, said last week the carrier could meet pension obligations for all of its unions except the plan covering its 4,000 pilots, which is 50 percent underfunded.[/P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/25/2003 7:51:58 AM Hopeful wrote:
[P]RV4:[BR][BR]No way are they gonna put $1 or 2$ billion dollars in the fund because they are going to get Congress to change the pension funds which will relieve them of their obligations.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]What planet are you on? Do you have a crystal ball that predicts a change of attitude in the Senate?[BR][BR]WASHINGTON, Jan 22 (Reuters) - [STRONG]The U.S. Senate killed a proposal late on Wednesday to allow US Airways Group Inc. to restructure payments to its employee pension system, increasing chances the bankrupt carrier will terminate its pilots' retirement plan. [BR][/STRONG][BR]The chamber voted to table a bipartisan amendment to a spending bill offered by Arlen Specter, a Pennsylvania Republican, and backed by the pilots' union and the carrier. [/P]
[P]The proposal would have allowed US Airways to string out $3.1 billion in underfunded pension payments over 30 years. The current schedule is seven years.
[P]David Siegel, the company's president and chief executive, said last week the carrier could meet pension obligations for all of its unions except the plan covering its 4,000 pilots, which is 50 percent underfunded.[/P]
KCFlyer
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On 1/25/2003 9:24:31 AM RV4 wrote:
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[BLOCKQUOTE]KCFLyer,
Are you in the union? Are you in airline management? What is you agenda?[/BLOCKQUOTE][/BLOCKQUOTE]
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I am not in any union. Used to be in the Teamsters back in 1980, but didn't see what they really did for me.
I am not in airline management.
I have no agenda other than to discuss issues and offer a view that might differ from yours. I am not a "yes man" to managment or labor. Just another guy interested in the well being of American Airlines.
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On 1/25/2003 9:24:31 AM RV4 wrote:
[BLOCKQUOTE]
[BLOCKQUOTE]KCFLyer,
Are you in the union? Are you in airline management? What is you agenda?[/BLOCKQUOTE][/BLOCKQUOTE]
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I am not in any union. Used to be in the Teamsters back in 1980, but didn't see what they really did for me.
I am not in airline management.
I have no agenda other than to discuss issues and offer a view that might differ from yours. I am not a "yes man" to managment or labor. Just another guy interested in the well being of American Airlines.
KCFlyer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
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Okay RV4 - AA management says to the TWU "We're bleeding cash and we need concessions" TWU is voted out and AMFA voted in. They walk into managements office and sit down. Management says "We're bleeding cash and we need concessions". What exactly can the AMFA do that the TWU cannot, that will result in a win/win for the company and mechanics? Bear in mind that without the company, union representation is a moot point. So please, enlighten me.
High Class problems are things like worrying about union representation while working for great company and making top $ while doing it. Real problems are what is occuring at US and UAL right now (and what could end up happening at AA). Wheather you will have a job or not and how far your pay is going to fall
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On 1/25/2003 8:41:30 AM KCFlyer wrote:
Okay RV4 - AA management says to the TWU "We're bleeding cash and we need concessions" TWU is voted out and AMFA voted in. They walk into managements office and sit down. Management says "We're bleeding cash and we need concessions". What exactly can the AMFA do that the TWU cannot, that will result in a win/win for the company and mechanics? Bear in mind that without the company, union representation is a moot point. So please, enlighten me.
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There may be a point to what you say since AMFA would have to administer the contract that is in effect. But any future discussions or negotiations would be decided by mechanics craft and class. Without the mechanic the other groups including non-union are the moot point.
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On 1/25/2003 8:41:30 AM KCFlyer wrote:
Okay RV4 - AA management says to the TWU "We're bleeding cash and we need concessions" TWU is voted out and AMFA voted in. They walk into managements office and sit down. Management says "We're bleeding cash and we need concessions". What exactly can the AMFA do that the TWU cannot, that will result in a win/win for the company and mechanics? Bear in mind that without the company, union representation is a moot point. So please, enlighten me.
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[/blockquote]
There may be a point to what you say since AMFA would have to administer the contract that is in effect. But any future discussions or negotiations would be decided by mechanics craft and class. Without the mechanic the other groups including non-union are the moot point.
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[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/25/2003 7:48:08 AM KCFlyer wrote: [BR][BR]Regardless of seniority numbers or stations, just exactly how would a vote to change union representation help either American Airlines or American Airlines employees for the immediate future? [BR][BR]Will voting AMFA in suddenly solve many of the problems facing AA right now? [BR][BR]AAMech is right - you guys have far more pressing issues than which union represents you. ----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]#1. In a union majority rules. At AA the majority of the TWU is fleet service. It would help if AA mechanics (employees) could decide their own fate and substantiate their own compensation and benefits without having to subsidize the unskilled majority. Contrary to your beliefs, this would likely outcome in labor savings for AA.[BR][BR]#2. A union representation is not designed nor ever will be to solve the problems of the company.[BR][BR]#3. Yes there are pressing issues, but as desribed in #1 above, the mechanic employee group would be better served in a mechanics only union.[BR][BR]Lastly, according to law, the company and it's personal are not to assist or participate in union representation issues. That being said, union representation elections do not cost AA. Unless of course they violate the law and end up spending $600,000.00 to defend the lapdog union.[BR][BR]You appear to believe we cannot walk and chew gum at the same time. I have the ability to multi-task in my brain and if my co-workers cannot, they have no business working on aircraft.[BR][BR]The topic of discussion on this thread is UNION REPRESENTATION, not how can the union save the company from themselves!
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/25/2003 7:48:08 AM KCFlyer wrote: [BR][BR]Regardless of seniority numbers or stations, just exactly how would a vote to change union representation help either American Airlines or American Airlines employees for the immediate future? [BR][BR]Will voting AMFA in suddenly solve many of the problems facing AA right now? [BR][BR]AAMech is right - you guys have far more pressing issues than which union represents you. ----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]#1. In a union majority rules. At AA the majority of the TWU is fleet service. It would help if AA mechanics (employees) could decide their own fate and substantiate their own compensation and benefits without having to subsidize the unskilled majority. Contrary to your beliefs, this would likely outcome in labor savings for AA.[BR][BR]#2. A union representation is not designed nor ever will be to solve the problems of the company.[BR][BR]#3. Yes there are pressing issues, but as desribed in #1 above, the mechanic employee group would be better served in a mechanics only union.[BR][BR]Lastly, according to law, the company and it's personal are not to assist or participate in union representation issues. That being said, union representation elections do not cost AA. Unless of course they violate the law and end up spending $600,000.00 to defend the lapdog union.[BR][BR]You appear to believe we cannot walk and chew gum at the same time. I have the ability to multi-task in my brain and if my co-workers cannot, they have no business working on aircraft.[BR][BR]The topic of discussion on this thread is UNION REPRESENTATION, not how can the union save the company from themselves!
