Why there will never be a T.A.

[NYer]

It will get harder, if you guys go as long as we have, you will have people that want to choke the negotiating committee. At American the maintenance side of the house wants a card drive and election. I hate to say where everyone would be at American if it was 2024, and your contract became amenable in 2018.

It's already been a kind process considering many have been waiting since the BK to get the process going and the time spent on negotiations.

If there is a final or last offer (whatever it's branded), it will be a tough decision to just say no let's go to Section 6.

 

[NYer]

Why are you saying Dec 2019? That is 18 months from now.

By December 2019, the UA guys would have received two contractual raises. Two raises within a 15 month span from when the Association potentially goes to Section 6.

Seems everyone is unwilling to look ahead. Few of us wanted to talk about the possibility of Section even 6 months ago. If we don't discuss all angles we'll certainly look back with 20/20 but it'll be too late.

 

[WeAAsles]

Why are you saying Dec 2019? That is 18 months from now.

Because he’s looking to stir maximum anxiety to draw more people to his cause. He’s selling fear.

 

[WeAAsles]

Right now, it easy to make a case to stick together and let's wait it out together but as the days pass it becomes harder.

By December 2019, we will be so far behind other CBA's in the industry that's today's frustrations will pale in comparison.

Take the wages, by December 2019, UA will be at $32.01. If we get to be 3% above them that means we'd be at about $32.97 (without any Differential).

With a differential we'd be at about $33.50 or about 9% higher than today or about $5,600 for 2080 hours without working extra or considering other value like the OT and holidays.

How long do you believe that disparity will be ignored in the spirit of solidarity? Longer than what the NMB may be willing to wait it out in Section 6?

If the leadership thinks so, then they should be getting everyone ready because the dynamics are going to change drastically.

Well in December of 2021 UAL will go to $33.30 and if we’re still lingering 3 1/2 years from now we would be losing out on (7%) which is $35.63 or $36.13 with that differential.

2028, 2029 or 2030 will be my last years on the job before I put in my papers to retire. Can you do the math and tell me what I’ll be losing by then assuming say 2.5% per year?

 

[WeAAsles]

By December 2019, the UA guys would have received two contractual raises. Two raises within a 15 month span from when the Association potentially goes to Section 6.

Seems everyone is unwilling to look ahead. Few of us wanted to talk about the possibility of Section even 6 months ago. If we don't discuss all angles we'll certainly look back with 20/20 but it'll be too late.

From everyone I talk to you’re the only one who holds any fear over going in to the formality of RLA Section 6.

It seems to be your personal Boogeyman.

 

[Bin Stretcher]

On the bright side of Section 6, would we not be within our rights to receive retro pay from date of Section 6 onset?

 

[WeAAsles]

Here’s a comment NYer has used.

“The Mediator can put the Groups on ice”

Ok so what’s the difference compared to what’s happening right now? Essentially the Company has also put us on ice since they no longer seem to want to negotiate at least directly. It seems to me that the Company just wants our Negotiators to call on the phone and accept what the Company has offered through the Computer on their controlled Webpage.

 

[WeAAsles]

On the bright side of Section 6, would we not be within our rights to receive retro pay from date of Section 6 onset?

Retro is always a negotiated item but absolutely.

We (TWU) received retro in 12/2001. As a matter of fact I received 7 checks dated 12/21/2001 because the Company couldn’t figure out how to do math as well as I could.

 

[1AA]

You are doing more harm than good, but I think that you might not even aware of it

That's funny. First thing is everyone on this forum has absolutely ZERO influence at the negotiations. This forum has no leverage in negotiations. This forum is good for sharing information and expressing ones opinion. This forum is good for updating events that are related to the topic. This forum also exposes the uninformed and the ones that are looking to stir things up. I feel based on your posts you are not too familiar on how the TWU operates. I feel your just hoping a JCBA is signed so you can get your $110,000 (assuming your in M&E) and bail out. Unless the Association sells out the membership, we won't see a JCBA that closely resembles a promised ILC in the years to come. Starting with 2019.

The union predicts that about 20% of the work force will take an early out. If it's attached to a JCBA all the company and both unions need is just over 30% to pass a contract. With less than 50% voting no it may sound like a majority win but factor in the 20% that will never work under that contract you now have 80% of the work force left. From that 80% you have 30% that voted Yes. Remove the early out guys and add the yes guys that did not take the early out and the majority left on the property working under the JCBA are the NO voters. This is how a union can sell out the membership if they choose too.
These numbers are based on what the TWU predicted for all M&E including the IAM. In my opinion I see more than 20% taking a early out package. The more guys that take a package the worse the JCBA will be. This is why I believe the union is trying it's best to get us a fair JCBA at this point instead of a ILC JCBA. So yes 2019 and beyond is realistic. For the M&E guys.

 

[1AA]

On the bright side of Section 6, would we not be within our rights to receive retro pay from date of Section 6 onset?

Yes. Retro usually is negotiated from the date the CBA becomes amenable unless otherwise agreed upon. Generally that's how retro works. Sometimes agreements between both parties agree on signing bonuses and can be misinterpreted as retro.

 

[WeAAsles]

Yes. Retro usually is negotiated from the date the CBA becomes amenable unless otherwise agreed upon. Generally that's how retro works. Sometimes agreements between both parties agree on signing bonuses and can be misinterpreted as retro.

You still do lose though in retro since the Company usually only reimburses you the front end and forgets the back end (Retirement contributions) Then you can compound that to the average investment rate of return.

Still though irregardless of loss of income their are items that a Union should hold firm on that are not directly monetarily oriented.

 

[NYer]

On the bright side of Section 6, would we not be within our rights to receive retro pay from date of Section 6 onset?

No. That would need to be bargained.

 

[Racer X]

That's funny. First thing is everyone on this forum has absolutely ZERO influence at the negotiations. This forum has no leverage in negotiations. This forum is good for sharing information and expressing ones opinion. This forum is good for updating events that are related to the topic. This forum also exposes the uninformed and the ones that are looking to stir things up. I feel based on your posts you are not too familiar on how the TWU operates. I feel your just hoping a JCBA is signed so you can get your $110,000 (assuming your in M&E) and bail out. Unless the Association sells out the membership, we won't see a JCBA that closely resembles a promised ILC in the years to come. Starting with 2019.

The union predicts that about 20% of the work force will take an early out. If it's attached to a JCBA all the company and both unions need is just over 30% to pass a contract. With less than 50% voting no it may sound like a majority win but factor in the 20% that will never work under that contract you now have 80% of the work force left. From that 80% you have 30% that voted Yes. Remove the early out guys and add the yes guys that did not take the early out and the majority left on the property working under the JCBA are the NO voters. This is how a union can sell out the membership if they choose too.
These numbers are based on what the TWU predicted for all M&E including the IAM. In my opinion I see more than 20% taking a early out package. The more guys that take a package the worse the JCBA will be. This is why I believe the union is trying it's best to get us a fair JCBA at this point instead of a ILC JCBA. So yes 2019 and beyond is realistic. For the M&E guys.

The influence comes where the company patrols these boards and can use the dissension to their benefit.
I am not TWU MTC....rather IAM fleet
The Association has already stated their position on a buyout....that position is that they are not opposed to a buyout, they just don’t want it in the JCBA....so that isn’t a sellout by the association.
That leads into the 20% taking a buyout...that would be approx 6,000 people that would not be replaced with association related jobs. Another reason to not have a buyout in JCBA.
If it’s 2019 for M&E...then it’s 2019 for all groups

 

[WeAAsles]

No. That would need to be bargained.

With the extraordinary profit that AA has been earning even the Mediator would likely frown on the Company if it tried to reject the idea of full retro.

NEXT?

 

[Kev3188]

The union predicts that about 20% of the work force will take an early out. If it's attached to a JCBA all the company and both unions need is just over 30% to pass a contract. With less than 50% voting no it may sound like a majority win but factor in the 20% that will never work under that contract you now have 80% of the work force left. From that 80% you have 30% that voted Yes. Remove the early out guys and add the yes guys that did not take the early out and the majority left on the property working under the JCBA are the NO voters. This is how a union can sell out the membership if they choose too.

Not sure I agree with your math, but your overall point is spot on. Early Outs are good, but should never be predicated on a T/A vote.

The influence comes where the company patrols these boards and can use the dissension to their benefit.

EVERY carrier has HR (or others) patrolling these sites- no one should be surprised to see that.

That said, the idea that negotiations are some sort of state secret is absurd.

And to be honest, if your NC is getting tripped up by comments on social media, then you need a new NC.