Why no contract from the Association?

[WeAAsles]

Anybody can try and sue anybody but as far as I know, and I did look into it, there is no law that would prevent an agreement where our earned pensions could be rolled into the IAM plan as long as earned promised benefits are not reduced. In other words if you earned $20K per year at 60 by the freeze date you don't lose that in the process, however if the agreement passed and the fund we agreed to let take over our Pension was unable to fulfill that promise we are SOL. So they cant reduce what we earned as a function of the agreement but we could lose. If the current fund run by AA ran out of money AA would have to pick up the bill and provide us what they promised but if the IAM plan runs out of money there is nobody underwriting it, if the money isn't there they cant give it to you as I believe such an agreement would pull us out from under the PBGC protection we have currently. So from what I've seen AAL could not do it, but the Association and AAL could agree to roll our pension funds into the IAM plan.

God if for ANY other reason I wish they would hurry up and get us our JCBA's to vote on, # 1 would be to END this garbage talk of our underfunded Pensions being rolled in to the IAMPF.

And I guess you and Gary must have had a falling out or something Bob?

 

[AANOTOK]

God if for ANY other reason I wish they would hurry up and get us our JCBA's to vote on, # 1 would be to END this garbage talk of our underfunded Pensions being rolled in to the IAMPF.

And I guess you and Gary must have had a falling out or something Bob?

A. Nobody has proven to me or shown me where my AA frozen pension can legally be rolled
into a union I am not a member of. The Association is not one. Many here have stated they have talked to people or have read that it can (and possibly) will be done, but I have not seen one document proving that.
IF IF IF, that were the case, I, like many here believe that the JCBA T/A would be shot down in a heart beat and I would hope every single TWU rep who voted for it would be chastised to no end by the membership for even bringing it back. Again, let me make my self clear before the spinners take over, anything that takes my pension away from me (involuntarily) and replaces it with something else without my consent is a big no. AND PUTTING IT IN THE HANDS OF THE MEMBERSHIP FOR A VOTE IS NOT MY CONSENT!

 

[WeAAsles]

Is it election year already, Bob

Yes it is. Local 591 election season has begun.

Oh and look here. A petition. Woo Hoo.

https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/immediate-resignation-of-twu-local-591-president

 

[AANOTOK]

Yes it is. Local 591 election season has begun.

Oh and look here. A petition. Woo Hoo.

https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/immediate-resignation-of-twu-local-591-president

2015 petition??

 

[Bob Owens]

A. Nobody has proven to me or shown me where my AA frozen pension can legally be rolled
into a union I am not a member of. The Association is not one. Many here have stated they have talked to people or have read that it can (and possibly) will be done, but I have not seen one document proving that.
IF IF IF, that were the case, I, like many here believe that the JCBA T/A would be shot down in a heart beat and I would hope every single TWU rep who voted for it would be chastised to no end by the membership for even bringing it back. Again, let me make my self clear before the spinners take over, anything that takes my pension away from me (involuntarily) and replaces it with something else without my consent is a big no. AND PUTTING IT IN THE HANDS OF THE MEMBERSHIP FOR A VOTE IS NOT MY CONSENT!

Generally the rule of thumb is unless there is a law that forbids something then it can be done. I tried finding a law that said it cant be done, but could not. As for it being shot down, did you ever think we would be working under an agreement like the one that was voted in? Every time they hire a new guy and an old guy leaves its that much closer they are to having enough that don't care what happens to the Frozen Pension and possibly another in favor of the IAM Plan because they dont have a defined pension at all. That said I have not heard any talk of our Pension being rolled in, but it could happen and you should be aware of that. , Going forward it is a part of the Association agreement that they will try and get us into the IAM Pension fund.

 

[WeAAsles]

2015 petition??

Just found it funny. 62 signatures. I HATE those stupid petitions as much as I HATE fear peddlers.

 

[Bob Owens]

Yes it is. Local 591 election season has begun.

Oh and look here. A petition. Woo Hoo.

https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/immediate-resignation-of-twu-local-591-president

Like I said, not for me. 2015 Petition is the best you can do?

 

[Bob Owens]

God if for ANY other reason I wish they would hurry up and get us our JCBA's to vote on, # 1 would be to END this garbage talk of our underfunded Pensions being rolled in to the IAMPF.

And I guess you and Gary must have had a falling out or something Bob?

Did I say anything against Gary or are you simply living up to your nom de plume??

 

[WeAAsles]

Did I say anything against Gary or are you simply living up to your nom de plume??

Bob you're fear peddling. You know DAMN good and well that Gary, Alex and Mike would NEVER accept that and neither would ANY TWU President or MEMBER for that matter.

Even talk of it would be all out WAR!!!!!

Besides multiple other reasons it's NOT going to happen period!!!!!

Legally yes it can be done. COMPLETE common sense says NO WAY!!!!!

 

[WeAAsles]

Like I said, not for me. 2015 Petition is the best you can do?

It came up in a search and I found it HILLARIOUS. I HATE those dumb dumb petitions.

 

[Jester]

No matter what, the iam pension is going to get hit. The pension's balance sheet is probably even worse than what they report.
.

And what is being reported with my "ANNUAL FUNDING NOTICE" from the pension received last month wasn't good either. According to the document as of Jan. 1, 2016 the Value of Assets was $11,740,213,276 and the Value of Liabilities was $12,244,408,213 meaning that Assets were only 95.9% of the Value of Liabilities. Which is over year old data, and not very timely.

However, if we look at Fair Market Value of Assets $11,029,451,402 as of December 31, 2016 ( a year later than the Value of Assets-- a more "smoothed" estimate of value), thus the Value of Assets beginning 2016 are HIGHER a year prior during a bull market? Unfortunately, this a common event in prior years whereas the estimates in the "Value of Assets" are higher than the "Fair Market Value". Who determines the "Value of Assets" as that is the denominator against the "Value of Liabilities" and estimates for Funded Percentages? I am of the belief that the value of anything is based upon what the market will bear and not some arbitrary estimate from an accountant with conflicts of interests.

Furthermore, the Value of Liabilities has continue to increase from Jan. 1, 2014 - Jan. 1, 2016 at approximately 6% per year, and I estimate the Value of Liabilities would have increased by around the same percentage for a rough estimate of $12,985,198,080 ending 2016. Thus, a funding percentage of only 84.9% when using the Fair Market Value of Assets vs. the Value of Assets? The Fair Market Value of Assets increased by only 3.5%, from $10,653,951,526 (12/31/2015) to $11,029,451,402 (12/31/2016) during a fairly strong stock market, but it should not be surprising as its liabilities have continued to grow steadily, as so would the pay-outs to retirees.

Tepid growth in pension asset values, increasing liabilities, and a lengthy stock market downturn will certainly lead to reduction in benefits as the pension would find itself in a critical or endangered status. It should be obvious as to why the IAM part of the Association is pushing hard to get AA into the IAMPF to shore-up its finances.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob you're fear peddling. You know DAMN good and well that Gary, Alex and Mike would NEVER accept that and neither would ANY TWU President or MEMBER for that matter.

Even talk of it would be all out WAR!!!!!

Besides multiple other reasons it's NOT going to happen period!!!!!

Legally yes it can be done. COMPLETE common sense says NO WAY!!!!!

Yes Legally what could be done? The rollover of our pension into the IAM or including us in the IAM Pension? As far as the Rollover I was answering what somebody else posted, he seemed to think it could not be done, I said I think it could be done. If complete common sense ruled we never would have agreed to a deal where we didn't get paid in full for each occurrence of sick time, that we would have a week less vacation than everyone else, only five paid Holidays where they only pay us for four hours when they require us to be there 8, that we would lose our Pension and retiree medical, two overhaul bases closed and mighty Tulsa down from over 7000 Title 1 to around 2700, where was the all out War over those issues? As far as us being jammed into the IAM Pension going forward the fact is IT IS WRITTEN INTO THE ASSOCIATION AGREEMENT. Just as the TWU could/would not back out of that agreement they cant back out of this unless the IAM agrees to, and unless they feel that stsying with this could cost them their membership , they wont.


NOW THEREFORE, TWU and IAM agree to propose a defined benefit pension with the IAMNPF in negotiations with the New American Airlines for single , combined Collective Bargaining Agreements covering Mechanic and Related, Fleet Service and Stores employees in order to provide a defined benefit benefit pension for those employees at American Airlines whose pensions were frozen in American's bankruptcy and to continue the participation of those employees at US Airways who currently have defined benefit pensions in the IAMNPF.

There is more, signed by Robert Gless and Sito Pantoja on the 9th of May 2013.
Yes I know Gary would never accept this, Gary and I didn't accept or agree to bring back the Bankruptcy deal either but in reality he has no real say in it other than he will tell his members to vote no, just as we did with the Bankruptcy deal. This will, without Garys approval, be in the JCBA because they already agreed to it and the company will jump on this, it will save them millions compared to the 401K match. In the meantime, as our peers go through a second round of adjustments to bring them to parity with their peers Legacy USAIR guys continue to earn around $2/hour more than Legacy AA guys once you factor in just Vacations and Holidays, and none of us are near parity with our peers. The longer they drag it out the more likely they can get the IAMNPF to pass. The IAM and AA want this language, AA because it will save them millions and the Association because they feel the pension will handcuff us to the Association, it worked at USAIR in repelling the IBT raid. Look at what they did with the pay adjustment. There was a reason why they screwed the new guys, to cause dissent, these guys will be sold on the misnomer of the IAMNPF being labeled a defined Benefit Pension, when in reality its a defined benefit promise.They screwed them to destroy their trust in the older guys and their Local, 591, which will undoubtedly suggest that the members reject a JCBA that forces us into the IAMNPF.

 

[Bob Owens]

God if for ANY other reason I wish they would hurry up and get us our JCBA's to vote on, # 1 would be to END this garbage talk of our underfunded Pensions being rolled in to the IAMPF.

And I guess you and Gary must have had a falling out or something Bob?

The difference is that with our underfunded Pensions AA has to pay us what we earned whether or not they put enough away or not, so the underfunding isn]t as much of a concern as the underfunding of the IAMNPF where they reduce the pensions of retirees who cant do anything about it if they don't have enough money.

 

[Koolcat]

A. Nobody has proven to me or shown me where my AA frozen pension can legally be rolled
into a union I am not a member of. The Association is not one. Many here have stated they have talked to people or have read that it can (and possibly) will be done, but I have not seen one document proving that.
IF IF IF, that were the case, I, like many here believe that the JCBA T/A would be shot down in a heart beat and I would hope every single TWU rep who voted for it would be chastised to no end by the membership for even bringing it back. Again, let me make my self clear before the spinners take over, anything that takes my pension away from me (involuntarily) and replaces it with something else without my consent is a big no. AND PUTTING IT IN THE HANDS OF THE MEMBERSHIP FOR A VOTE IS NOT MY CONSENT!

Our frozen pension will stay where it's at and will not be moved to the IAMPF!

 

[Koolcat]

Yes Legally what could be done? The rollover of our pension into the IAM or including us in the IAM Pension? As far as the Rollover I was answering what somebody else posted, he seemed to think it could not be done, I said I think it could be done. If complete common sense ruled we never would have agreed to a deal where we didn't get paid in full for each occurrence of sick time, that we would have a week less vacation than everyone else, only five paid Holidays where they only pay us for four hours when they require us to be there 8, that we would lose our Pension and retiree medical, two overhaul bases closed and mighty Tulsa down from over 7000 Title 1 to around 2700, where was the all out War over those issues? As far as us being jammed into the IAM Pension going forward the fact is IT IS WRITTEN INTO THE ASSOCIATION AGREEMENT. Just as the TWU could/would not back out of that agreement they cant back out of this unless the IAM agrees to, and unless they feel that stsying with this could cost them their membership , they wont.


NOW THEREFORE, TWU and IAM agree to propose a defined benefit pension with the IAMNPF in negotiations with the New American Airlines for single , combined Collective Bargaining Agreements covering Mechanic and Related, Fleet Service and Stores employees in order to provide a defined benefit benefit pension for those employees at American Airlines whose pensions were frozen in American's bankruptcy and to continue the participation of those employees at US Airways who currently have defined benefit pensions in the IAMNPF.

There is more, signed by Robert Gless and Sito Pantoja on the 9th of May 2013.
Yes I know Gary would never accept this, Gary and I didn't accept or agree to bring back the Bankruptcy deal either but in reality he has no real say in it other than he will tell his members to vote no, just as we did with the Bankruptcy deal. This will, without Garys approval, be in the JCBA because they already agreed to it and the company will jump on this, it will save them millions compared to the 401K match. In the meantime, as our peers go through a second round of adjustments to bring them to parity with their peers Legacy USAIR guys continue to earn around $2/hour more than Legacy AA guys once you factor in just Vacations and Holidays, and none of us are near parity with our peers. The longer they drag it out the more likely they can get the IAMNPF to pass. The IAM and AA want this language, AA because it will save them millions and the Association because they feel the pension will handcuff us to the Association, it worked at USAIR in repelling the IBT raid. Look at what they did with the pay adjustment. There was a reason why they screwed the new guys, to cause dissent, these guys will be sold on the misnomer of the IAMNPF being labeled a defined Benefit Pension, when in reality its a defined benefit promise.They screwed them to destroy their trust in the older guys and their Local, 591, which will undoubtedly suggest that the members reject a JCBA that forces us into the IAMNPF.

Where do you get your calculations on the company saving millions on the IAMPF compared to 401k