Why aren't we using the court system?

[mike7863]

Brother, I agree with geo pay for all Union Members in high cost of living areas.

But with all due respect: trade certifications other than the airframe and powerplant certification should be paid license pay for the tickets they carry and are required for the performance of their duties.

We have highly experienced people in aircraft maintenance, facilities maintenance and automotive maintenance that have also studied for designations and certificates such as a welder, machinist, journeyman and master electricians and ASE certified automotive and diesel mechanics.

Unlike the A&P certification, the exercise of the priviledge for six out of every twenty four months; journeymen and master electricians are required to attend CEU, Continuing Education Units, training and NEC Code Update courses as a condition of retaining their tickets. Most of these union members get their required training on their own time and their own dime.

I do not know if the welders, machinists and automotive union members are required to maintain their tickets through the CEU process but I do know that without having that level of proficiency on board: most of that type of work would be outsourced to outside vendors and we then go through the whole nutroll of calling the OSV back to fix what they failed to fix the first time.

The biggest problem that I have seen in the line environment is the failure of AA to properly fund and equip the automotive and facilities mechanics with the tools and resources required to perform their jobs: and then claim the failure as justification for the subsequent outsourcing.

Just my opinion.

hey i have to agree with you, if you hold a license you should get paid for it. and a&ps shouldnt be the only ones getting it. but then again if a machinist or welder only has one license they shouldnt be getting paid for two.

 

[Frank Szabo]

hey i have to agree with you, if you hold a license you should get paid for it. and a&ps shouldnt be the only ones getting it. but then again if a machinist or welder only has one license they shouldnt be getting paid for two.

Perhaps you can explain why Toolmakers and machinists (most of which have NO certifications) have to come out to hangers (TULE) and do work for you wonderous A&P ticketholders because you gents can't or won't do your own work. Drilling and reaming holes, splashes, and other SIMPLE things that were supposedly taught to you in A&P School yet can't be done by the A&P certificated mechanics.

They want to give machinist and welders license pay. im sorry but i worked my but off to get my a&p, and for someone to get license pay and not have a license is a slap in the face.

I'm afraid I don't understand all I know about your license pay complaint if you guys won'/can't do your own work or your crew chief or soupervisor hasn't the faith in you to have you do the necessary work and calls out others to do it for you.

Personally, I've worked in my chosen trade (Tool and Diemaker) for nearly 40 years. Others in my shop have a rather large number of years experience in trade as well.

Perhaps that "slap in the face" you mention is what you and others need as an incentive to do your own job and not call other shops to drill & ream holes and remove bushings for you.

 

[mike7863]

Perhaps you can explain why Toolmakers and machinists (most of which have NO certifications) have to come out to hangers (TULE) and do work for you wonderous A&P ticketholders because you gents can't or won't do your own work. Drilling and reaming holes, splashes, and other SIMPLE things that were supposedly taught to you in A&P School yet can't be done by the A&P certificated mechanics.



I'm afraid I don't understand all I know about your license pay complaint if you guys won'/can't do your own work or your crew chief or soupervisor hasn't the faith in you to have you do the necessary work and calls out others to do it for you.

Personally, I've worked in my chosen trade (Tool and Diemaker) for nearly 40 years. Others in my shop have a rather large number of years experience in trade as well.

Perhaps that "slap in the face" you mention is what you and others need as an incentive to do your own job and not call other shops to drill & ream holes and remove bushings for you.

you know what your right. if your out there doing what your saying then you should get license pay. and the a&ps should give up theres, because your right they have been trained to do that. and all they are doing is being lazy. but for me i have never had anyone else drill anything out for me. and if i over step my bounds i am sorry.

 

[Buck]

Perhaps you can explain why Toolmakers and machinists (most of which have NO certifications) have to come out to hangers (TULE) and do work for you wondrous A&P ticket holders because you gents can't or won't do your own work. Drilling and reaming holes, splashes, and other SIMPLE things that were supposedly taught to you in A&P School yet can't be done by the A&P certificated mechanics.



I'm afraid I don't understand all I know about your license pay complaint if you guys won'/can't do your own work or your crew chief or supervisor hasn't the faith in you to have you do the necessary work and calls out others to do it for you.

Personally, I've worked in my chosen trade (Tool and Die maker) for nearly 40 years. Others in my shop have a rather large number of years experience in trade as well.

Perhaps that "slap in the face" you mention is what you and others need as an incentive to do your own job and not call other shops to drill & ream holes and remove bushings for you.

If the AO docks had to do their own specialized machinist work, then all the aircraft would be late. When you do come out, it is after the mechanics have already dealt with the engineer or Boeing. The fact remains that if you are doing the work you should receive the pay. The point I was trying to make in other posts, was that in contract negotiations, I do not believe a one licensed mechanic / machinist should be paid for two license(s). If you have two get paid for two or one for one. However A&P's with a Radio License, are only compensated for two license(s). If you use your license or certificate, you should be compensated. Something to consider, would to be paid a premium hourly rate above the base rate while doing the work.?

 

[PhatSappy]

I have asked the TWU Local 514 via email why we have not gone to the court system against the company and their bought and paid for Mediator.

If we don't see a T/A we can vote on this time around, we should begin organizing a legal fund to do just that. If TWU won't pony - up then we can kick them out too. The NMB has held us under water for too long while Arpey and his gang have looted the company - and us.

 

[Frank Szabo]

you know what your right. if your out there doing what your saying then you should get license pay. and the a&ps should give up theres, because your right they have been trained to do that. and all they are doing is being lazy. but for me i have never had anyone else drill anything out for me. and if i over step my bounds i am sorry.

Well sir, you need to come to TULE and check out the daily cluster. Calls come into my shop (256-6) almost daily and we get to go out and do repairs - on occasion, 6-8 people, in crews of 2, will be assigned to the hangers, usually though, only 2. Thursday and Friday are particularly a problem as that is when the hanger boys are attempting to line up weekend overtime for themselves and need to find a pissy problem to delay their schedule.

Our shop has been cut off of weekend overtime (never during the week) but there are always calls to people home on Saturday and Sunday looking for bodies to assign to aircraft work - I got off the list a long time ago for this reason.

 

[Frank Szabo]

If the AO docks had to do their own specialized machinist work, then all the aircraft would be late. When you do come out, it is after the mechanics have already dealt with the engineer or Boeing. The fact remains that if you are doing the work you should receive the pay. The point I was trying to make in other posts, was that in contract negotiations, I do not believe a one licensed mechanic / machinist should be paid for two license(s). If you have two get paid for two or one for one. However A&P's with a Radio License, are only compensated for two license(s). If you use your license or certificate, you should be compensated. Something to consider, would to be paid a premium hourly rate above the base rate while doing the work.?

You don't understand yet, Buck.

We have our own work that is farmed out on a regular basis - a great deal of work, as a matter of fact. This work is farmed out to give us time to do YOUR work that manufacturer kits are provided to accomplish yet many complain about aircraft being sent out - WTF??

"Screwing the pooch" may have had a military origin but that in no way prevents its daily exercise in all facets of American Airlines.

Would it be advantageous to the company to replace ALL mechanics with diemakers? There certainly wouldn't be any further issues re: fixing the aircraft, would there?

My complaint - very little of this "specialized" work is that specialized. It is the basic "drill and ream this hole and make the appropriate item to pound into it". You don't see us dragging lathes and mills out to your aircraft but we come out with handtools, not that much different than what your boys have boxes full of. You mechanics and your inspectors are unable to accurately measure a hole without assistance, evidently, as we get numerous calls to do exactly that. If your boys need a special-sized reamer, our shop can make it and your people can operate the drill-motor and reamer. ... and so on ...

Now, before you try to say these items aren't covered in the A&P training, I received the training from the Navy, both the airframe and powerplant sides (virtually identical to the civilian version) but went a different direction upon leaving the military, as you can tell. The present training is not that much different and your people are well aware of the "how-to" aspect. Been there, done that and the T-shirt wore out years ago. Your argument doesn't wash.

In short - if your boys and girls can't manage to get an aircraft out on time without numerous in-house vacations provided by others who aren't really qualified to be doing their work and others (people like you) are buying into it, this says volumes about what's wrong with American Airlines.

Don't sidestep this question - what did the mechanics of 30 years ago do when they had a problem? Did they whine and cry to their crew chiefs and soupervisors because they didn't know how to do THEIR job in an efficient manner? I believe that would have gotten them an escorted walk to the street - WTF happened in the meantime to make this nonsense acceptable behavior?

Tonight is our shop BS meeting with our darling soupervisor - I think I'll whine that I need a couple of hanger mechanics to assemble a dieset for me that I've been working on because I'd rather be working on my nightly crosswords and other things. 😛

Summation: I DO NOT mind providing instruction to you fellows. There were many old farts over the years that taught me and showed me little odds and ends about how to do my particular trade and to them, I'll be eternally grateful as they taught me things not printed in any book. For that reason, I figure I owe that to others if they choose to listen as the time those old farts took with me gave me a trade that, while not making me filthy rich, did provide me with means to make a living for a lifetime - kinda like the "Teach a man to fish" thing.

 

[Buck]

You don't understand yet, Buck.

We have our own work that is farmed out on a regular basis - a great deal of work, as a matter of fact. This work is farmed out to give us time to do YOUR work that manufacturer kits are provided to accomplish.

Would it be advantageous to the company to replace ALL mechanics with die makers? There certainly wouldn't be any further issues re: fixing the aircraft, would there?

My complaint - very little of this "specialized" work is that specialized. It is the basic "drill and ream this hole and make the appropriate item to pound into it". You don't see us dragging lathes and mills out to your aircraft but we come out with hand tools, not that much different than what your boys have boxes full of. You mechanics and your inspectors are unable to accurately measure a hole without assistance, evidently, as we get numerous calls to do exactly that. If your boys need a special-sized reamer, our shop can make it and your people can operate the drill-motor and reamer. ... and so on ...

Now, before you try to say these items aren't covered in the A&P training, I received the training from the Navy, both the airframe and power plant sides (virtually identical to the civilian version) but went a different direction upon leaving the military, as you can tell. The present training is not that much different and your people are well aware of the "how-to" aspect. Been there, done that and the T-shirt wore out years ago. Your argument doesn't wash.

In short - if your boys and girls can't manage to get an aircraft out on time without numerous in-house vacations provided by others who aren't really qualified to be doing their work and others (people like you) are buying into it, this says volumes about what's wrong with American Airlines.

Don't sidestep this question - what did the mechanics of 30 years ago do when they had a problem? Did they whine and cry to their crew chiefs and supervisors because they didn't know how to do THEIR job in an efficient manner? I believe that would have gotten them an escorted walk to the street - WTF happened in the meantime to make this nonsense acceptable behavior?

Tonight is our shop BS meeting with our darling supervisor - I think I'll whine that I need a couple of hanger mechanics to assemble a dieset for me that I've been working on because I'd rather be working on my nightly crosswords and other things. 😛

Summation: I DO NOT mind providing instruction to you fellows. There were many old farts over the years that taught me and showed me little odds and ends about how to do my particular trade and to them, I'll be eternally grateful as they taught me things not printed in any book. For that reason, I figure I owe that to others if they choose to listen as the time those old farts took with me gave me a trade that, while not making me filthy rich, did provide me with means to make a living for a lifetime - kinda like the "Teach a man to fish" thing.

No I will not side step the issue. Had you informed this board and myself of your regular work being farmed out, I would have replied differently. It would appear that the company/union needs more people everywhere if they are going operate in the manner that they have. As for whether or not an A&P can perform many of the functions you describe, I would say that the A&P's are very capable. I started in the engine shops and would did almost everything associated with the work. However, I still hold the position that there are some functions that require a specialized skill. The machinist and the welder are at the least two of those. The rub by some may come from the way the contract is written, That a machinist can bump a mechanic but not visa versa. Of course we have never seen this in action. The contractual issue remains, any machinist/mechanic should be compensated for their certificate, but only for those they have and the job requirements. I would not ask you to come to AO and perform Avionics work, because there is no argument that it is the most difficult work there is.....

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

I would not ask you to come to AO and perform Avionics work, because there is no argument that it is the most difficult work there is.....

It couldn't be much different than what a person is allowed to play with when they possess an Amateur Radio License - I've got one of those, also - KD5ZES - tech level, but I get to build and play with microwave stuff. Actually, I think playing with avionics would be a trip but I would need to be brought up to date on some of the newer digital goodies.

There is a huge list of items that are farmed out that would otherwise be destined for my shop and we were told by our supposed "representation" at the union hall to leave the issue alone - naturally, the shop stewards did exactly that as they didn't want to make waves. This was approx. 5-8 years ago when one of our boys sat on the RO committee and gave us a heads-up and the listing.

It seems that to bring this work in house would have made an ass of someone who had an empire to protect and didn't want to increase the size of the tooling department as we, at American and every other place I've worked in the last 40 years, are the most useless humans on the planet, that is, until the SOBs in the offices want something yesterday.

One could surmise the tooling shop is as screwed up as the proverbial football bat, another term of military origin. FYI, we have figured out what one of those might look like and eventually, when the design is complete, I'll build it - want a photo?

 

[Buck]

It couldn't be much different than what a person is allowed to play with when they possess an Amateur Radio License - I've got one of those, also - KD5ZES - tech level, but I get to build and play with microwave stuff. Actually, I think playing with avionics would be a trip but I would need to be brought up to date on some of the newer digital goodies.

There is a huge list of items that are farmed out that would otherwise be destined for my shop and we were told by our supposed "representation" at the union hall to leave the issue alone - naturally, the shop stewards did exactly that as they didn't want to make waves. This was approx. 5-8 years ago when one of our boys sat on the RO committee and gave us a heads-up and the listing.

It seems that to bring this work in house would have made an ass of someone who had an empire to protect and didn't want to increase the size of the tooling department as we, at American and every other place I've worked in the last 40 years, are the most useless humans on the planet, that is, until the SOBs in the offices want something yesterday.

One could surmise the tooling shop is as screwed up as the proverbial football bat, another term of military origin. FYI, we have figured out what one of those might look like and eventually, when the design is complete, I'll build it - want a photo?

Sure I would like to see a Football Bat. But I would like a Left Handed Foot Ball Bat. BTW Avionics is probably the easiest job in AO 🙂

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Well sir, you need to come to TULE and check out the daily cluster. Calls come into my shop (256-6) almost daily and we get to go out and do repairs - on occasion, 6-8 people, in crews of 2, will be assigned to the hangers, usually though, only 2. Thursday and Friday are particularly a problem as that is when the hanger boys are attempting to line up weekend overtime for themselves and need to find a pissy problem to delay their schedule.

Our shop has been cut off of weekend overtime (never during the week) but there are always calls to people home on Saturday and Sunday looking for bodies to assign to aircraft work - I got off the list a long time ago for this reason.

Frank I have seen this kind of post before on other boards (from you?) Let me give you another side to the issue. I was a mechanic and crew chief in the hangars (727s) until shortly before they were retired. I can count on one hand the amount of times we needed tool and die on our dock. The times that we did, were because the equipment that is controlled by stores was in very bad shape and usually missing key pieces to it. We as mechanics would love to have you guys make us new stuff, but it's not like you guys can make stuff in a few minutes. I remember we had to have you guys cut some tail bushings out one time because we broke two porta-powers trying to get them out. In that case, there were absolutley no tools available to us to do this job. If the leadership in the hangars is wanting you guys to come out and do piddly stuff now, then that needs to be changed. But I agree with Buck. If you guys are out in the hangars doing A/O work you should be paid a license premium. I also know there are a shortage of machinists at AA. In the shop I am in, we have three machinists and they are worth their weight in gold. We all need to do our own work, but we need the equipment. Management is not willing to spend money on little things like tools or other equipment. As for A&Ps not knowing how to use measuring tools, I'd have to see that to believe it. In all my years in aviation I, personally, have never had to ask a machinist to measure anything for me. There are AMTs out there with no license (thanks TWU) however and I have yet to find one that could use a micrometer or a set of calipers. This is a problem AA and the TWU have created. Farming out your work is just wrong. There is no exuse for it. But knocking the AMTs and accusing them of using you to create overtime is unfair also. Just take solice in the fact that, thanks to the TWU, in the event of a RIF, you are considered an AMT and could bump a licensed mechanic out of his job. An AMT could not bump you, however because you are considered skilled and he is not. Something wrong with this picture???

 

[TWU informer]

Frank I have seen this kind of post before on other boards (from you?) Let me give you another side to the issue. I was a mechanic and crew chief in the hangars (727s) until shortly before they were retired. I can count on one hand the amount of times we needed tool and die on our dock. The times that we did, were because the equipment that is controlled by stores was in very bad shape and usually missing key pieces to it. We as mechanics would love to have you guys make us new stuff, but it's not like you guys can make stuff in a few minutes. I remember we had to have you guys cut some tail bushings out one time because we broke two porta-powers trying to get them out. In that case, there were absolutley no tools available to us to do this job. If the leadership in the hangars is wanting you guys to come out and do piddly stuff now, then that needs to be changed. But I agree with Buck. If you guys are out in the hangars doing A/O work you should be paid a license premium. I also know there are a shortage of machinists at AA. In the shop I am in, we have three machinists and they are worth their weight in gold. We all need to do our own work, but we need the equipment. Management is not willing to spend money on little things like tools or other equipment. As for A&Ps not knowing how to use measuring tools, I'd have to see that to believe it. In all my years in aviation I, personally, have never had to ask a machinist to measure anything for me. There are AMTs out there with no license (thanks TWU) however and I have yet to find one that could use a micrometer or a set of calipers. This is a problem AA and the TWU have created. Farming out your work is just wrong. There is no exuse for it. But knocking the AMTs and accusing them of using you to create overtime is unfair also. Just take solice in the fact that, thanks to the TWU, in the event of a RIF, you are considered an AMT and could bump a licensed mechanic out of his job. An AMT could not bump you, however because you are considered skilled and he is not. Something wrong with this picture???

We are such a strong Union!

Fully United, and very much prepared to challenge AA Management.

Now all we need is for our negotiators to expose these facts.

Satire of Course
We are more like the largest dysfunctional family on the planet.
Hardly prepared to enter any fight against anybody or anything.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

We are such a strong Union!

Fully United, and very much prepared to challenge AA Management.

Now all we need is for our negotiators to expose these facts.

Satire of Course
We are more like the largest dysfunctional family on the planet.
Hardly prepared to enter any fight against anybody or anything.

Just stating some facts Dave. AMTs can get bumped by machinists and welders. I do not think that is right. Also TWU has seen fit to place unlicensed people in AMT positions. These are a couple of things wrong that will be fixed if and when we send the TWU packing.

 

[Boomer]

you know what your right. if your out there doing what your saying then you should get license pay. and the a&ps should give up theres, because your right they have been trained to do that. and all they are doing is being lazy. but for me i have never had anyone else drill anything out for me. and if i over step my bounds i am sorry.

Brother,
Only a Man Claims His Wrong.

Your response is what we need to build the team under which the TWU and AA must be forced to negotiate and that we can claim as UNION MADE!

Regards,
Boomer

 

[TWU informer]

Just stating some facts Dave. AMTs can get bumped by machinists and welders. I do not think that is right. Also TWU has seen fit to place unlicensed people in AMT positions. These are a couple of things wrong that will be fixed if and when we send the TWU packing.

Well not to get personal OldGuy, but how many of those unlicensed worthless workers in your mind have blown a massive engine exhaust blast into the hangar like you have? Proof Positive the License does make you a professional, but is really nothing more than a license to learn.