Why American Airlines doesn't tout its maintenance work

[strikeforce]

Of course you can find examples of people in foreign repairs stations who can't speak or perhaps even read English.... but is it possible that they, in assembly line fashion, are given jobs that do not require them to read the manuals?
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And more significantly, you might want to note that the US has some of the lowest scores in all areas among developed nations when it comes to how well its population reads and writes... and don't try to blame it all on immigrants because there are people who were born on American soil by the boatloads that can't read or write at levels remotely close enough to understand a newspaper, let alone a Boeing technical manual.
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HSBC runs the same ad around the world and you can walk through the streets of any developing country and find dozens of English schools and all kinds of ads for learning English including by immersion in other countries.
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The whole idea that maintenance outsourcing doesn't work because people "there" can't speak English is a red herring - and it also belies the fact that there are plenty of maintenance outsourcing operations in the US.
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Further, the idea that companies send their planes to an overseas MRO shop w/o oversight is often not accurate.... I know that there are employees of US airlines who live and work at overseas MROs to oversee the work done on their own planes.... and there is nothing that says they can't.
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FWAAA is correct that airlines don't compete on safety and the whole reason might be that AA has had more accidents and incidents regardless of the reason than any other large airline - and AA is facing the largest fine in FAA history for maintenance.
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It would be fine to tout doing it all in-house but you gotta make sure your own nose is really clean first - and that includes AA's flight ops procedures which have been faulted for several recent accidents. You can bet there are execs of other airlines that are whispering to lawmakers that they should look at the boogers hanging of AA's nose before they talk about legislating outsourced maintenance.
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Finally, Wall Street really doesn't care if AA does its work in-house or in the outhouse if it can do it at competitive costs to the industry and keep the operation running well - which leads to making money. Getting fined or having to ground planes is a costly distraction from making money.
Other airlines who do outsource have had fewer operational distractions related to maintenance as well as better P&Ls.
And in DL's case, they not only outsource the work they say doesn't make sense but they insource what does and are a larger MRO than AA is... and DL's maintenance costs are far lower than AA's.
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When AA can do its own work in-house at competitive rates to the industry and run an operation that is as good as if not better than its peers, then people will sit up and notice.... until then all the cries that everyone else is wrong and we are right fall on deaf ears.

AA can be cost effective tomorrow if it wishes, but many management employees will be gone with the rest of us, including executives. AA is management heavy because the company loves CONTROL! By outsourcing work, the company loses the control over that operation. IFE is outsourced to Rockwell Collins, and when they're not available that system gets deferred and AA has lost control of fixing it NOW. Yes, you can save a dollar here and there, but losing control of when airplanes gets fixed affects selling your brand to the customers. It's much more than just saving money. I find it amusing when I hear that Wall Street analysts want this or want that from a company....well, don't you think AA has many COMPANY analysts wanting the same thing, but know the in's and out's of AA, and through their analysis have decided that OUR in-house maintenance is more COST effective than farming it out.

 

[Hopeful]

AA can be cost effective tomorrow if it wishes, but many management employees will be gone with the rest of us, including executives. AA is management heavy because the company loves CONTROL! By outsourcing work, the company loses the control over that operation. IFE is outsourced to Rockwell Collins, and when they're not available that system gets deferred and AA has lost control of fixing it NOW. Yes, you can save a dollar here and there, but losing control of when airplanes gets fixed affects selling your brand to the customers. It's much more than just saving money. I find it amusing when I hear that Wall Street analysts want this or want that from a company....well, don't you think AA has many COMPANY analysts wanting the same thing, but know the in's and out's of AA, and through their analysis have decided that OUR in-house maintenance is more COST effective than farming it out.

Just look at how outsourcing affected Boeing's 787 project... A disaster!

 

[WorldTraveler]

WT, THERE IS NO COMPETING WITH COUNTRIES THAT PAY 2-3 DOLLARS AND HOUR AND HAVE LITTLE OR NO REGULATIONS.



That is what outsourcing is about......poverty wages AND little or no regulations!

Competive rates???????????????????????????????? Exactly.......When AA says they want mechanics to make MRO wages OR ELSE, then we will sit up and take notice.

It is amazing how all the critics and pundits here say AA needs labor costs to be competive but are so hypocritcal when they don't criticize airlines who send work oversees for poverty wages and little or no workplace/safety regulations. Why don't the UA/CAL, SWA, JetBLue, USair, Deltas of the world simply have most of their work done here with cheap US MRO wages?

Why? Because here they still have workplace/safety rules and drug and alcohol testing.

And WT, do you know when the flying public will really give a damn?

When a loved on is killed in a crash due to human error and a lawyer will bring all these things to light.

Then that passenger will give a damn!

Outsourcing is more about skirting government regulations!

EVERY US airline that outsources its work is responsible for whatever is done on that plane... so the idea of skirting regulations just doesn't exist.
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Every passenger, airline exec, and employee has the same goal when it comes to getting their safe and sound.... yet there is no evidence to support the notion that there is any reduction in safety because of outsourcing even if the issue of "they can't read English" is true.
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No, I am not interested in tearing apart middle class America... but we live in a global economy.. it is legal to outsource and it is also legal for those workers in those outsourced companies to fly on US airlines to come to the US for vacation... and the reason why AA does so well in Latin America and DL etc does so well in Asia is because tourism to the US continues to grow as foreigners who are moving into the middle class are using their new money to come to the US and buy products which we have here and consider everyday basics (stuff like Bath and Body Works for example) that don't exist in other parts of the world or sell for many times more...
so, it might be nice to shut the door and say let's go back to the way it used to be... but the rest of the world isn't interested, and they sure aren't going to stop buying oil and natural resources that we have long imported but until recently they never needed much of...

Just look at how outsourcing affected Boeing's 787 project... A disaster!

first, AA is not a manufacturer and 2. you do realize that substantial portions of Boeing's previous models are made in Japan? How is the English in those factories?

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

Outsourcing is more about skirting government regulations!

Another item that will inevitably be raised by the management sorts is airlines being responsible for their aircraft.

The idea is to get some lacky at a foreign MRO with unearned but paid-for certificates to sign for an aircraft as being airworthy - should there be a crash, the responsibility then lies with whoever accomplished and signed for the work, not the airline, which is then free to collect insurance payments and direct lawsuits to those who signed for the work and their employer as the paperwork was correct and per FAA guidelines.

Someone explain to me how a foreign company can be sued.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Fly Cheap, Die Cheap

There's the first slogan I've seen for a long time that needs to be on about 50,000 T-shirts.

 

[Hopeful]

EVERY US airline that outsources its work is responsible for whatever is done on that plane... so the idea of skirting regulations just doesn't exist.

Really now! No drug and alcohol testing for one......Why do you think the FAA and airlines don't insist on that on foreign soil, but insist on it here?
A real good explanation is what I am sure you will respond with.
A FAA inspector pal of mine says some of these joints don't even dispose of oils and fluids safely like they do in this country. But hey,,,,Not the airline's responsibility.

Thank God for insurance.....Not a bad pay day when an airliner goes down.

first, AA is not a manufacturer and 2. you do realize that substantial portions of Boeing's previous models are made in Japan? How is the English in those factories?

Not to the extent that the 787 has experienced. They outsourced to the extent where quality control was in someone else's hands.

 

[WorldTraveler]

get back with us when there is a major aviation incident that can be pinned on outsourced maintenance and we will look at the record at that point. For now, there is NO evidence that outsourced maintenance either in the US or overseas is any less safe than it is when done under US based in-house shops.
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I have nothing against in-house maintenance. I do have a problem with continuing to harp on an issue that is deeply rooted in emotion and not a whole lot of facts that support the contention you want to make. When the facts come in that support your contention, let me know. And let Congress know since they will have to be the ones to change the laws.
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What should happen is that airlines take even more responsibility for ensuring that their planes don't even fly into the US from foreign bases with problems, even if they are fixed before any revenue passenger sets foot on them.
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But then the same zero-tolerance for errors standard should be used for US airlines doing their own in-house work as well.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

You cannot win in a discussion with these elitists who constantly remind us working folks that we are scum and exist only to benefit them and their like. It is obvious to anyone with a conscience that to allow maintenance on airliners in foreign countries without the oversight and regulations that are required of anyone performing the same maintenance in the U.S. is not fair. The irony of this is that these elitists would be the first to sue on these grounds if there were an incident. I for one would like to know what kind of business these people who habitually post their warped ideas on fairness are involved in so we, as consumers, could then return the favor and slander them and their like on similar message boards. I for one am sick and tired of these hypocrites who continue to spew their garbage and insist that as certified AMT professionals, we are not deserving of a fair and livable wage with benefits. These kind of people often are making substantially more than the average American and think that they and they alone deserve this. Be gone hypocrites and let those of us who actually have experience and know about the aviation industry discuss our issues without your warped, biased view of labor issues. These same people will tell you that the pharmaceutical companies that continue to raise the price of drugs even though most of their research is done in univeristies and subsidized by us tax payers, and the oil companies who continue to raise the price of gas even though the supply is plentiful, is ethical business practice. These people spend their time watching Fox News and listening to nazis like Glenn Beck. They will fly SouthWest and say it's fun to be treated like cattle and herded onto and off airplanes, but they demand first class treatment from AA and others even though they refuse to pay for it. It has not sunk into them that you get what you pay for and since they refuse to pay to be treated like royalty on AA planes, they have an axe to grind. Here is an analogy you and your kind may be able to relate to.... Why don't you go to your local BMW dealer and demand a car for the price of a Hyundai? The dealer would laugh you out of the building. Go spread your elitist propoganda elsewhere and spare us your view of the world from the penthouse.

 

[Frank Szabo]

You cannot win in a discussion with these elitists who constantly remind us working folks that we are scum and exist only to benefit them and their like.

... snip

Just put them on "ignore" - you won't have to read their spew unless someone quotes their post.

 

[Bob Owens]

get back with us when there is a major aviation incident that can be pinned on outsourced maintenance and we will look at the record at that point. For now, there is NO evidence that outsourced maintenance either in the US or overseas is any less safe than it is when done under US based in-house shops.
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I have nothing against in-house maintenance. I do have a problem with continuing to harp on an issue that is deeply rooted in emotion and not a whole lot of facts that support the contention you want to make. When the facts come in that support your contention, let me know. And let Congress know since they will have to be the ones to change the laws.
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What should happen is that airlines take even more responsibility for ensuring that their planes don't even fly into the US from foreign bases with problems, even if they are fixed before any revenue passenger sets foot on them.
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But then the same zero-tolerance for errors standard should be used for US airlines doing their own in-house work as well.

Unfortnately the proof you seek usually comes from a smoking hole in the ground. Problems from faulty repairs or maintenance, whether in house or not usually take a long time to manifest into that.

 

[Deleted member 14439]

There's the first slogan I've seen for a long time that needs to be on about 50,000 T-shirts.

Frank between that and your signature 'tag" line I do believe we have the makings for some nifty t-shirts, lol

 

[Deleted member 14439]

You cannot win in a discussion with these elitists who constantly remind us working folks that we are scum and exist only to benefit them and their like. It is obvious to anyone with a conscience that to allow maintenance on airliners in foreign countries without the oversight and regulations that are required of anyone performing the same maintenance in the U.S. is not fair. The irony of this is that these elitists would be the first to sue on these grounds if there were an incident. I for one would like to know what kind of business these people who habitually post their warped ideas on fairness are involved in so we, as consumers, could then return the favor and slander them and their like on similar message boards. I for one am sick and tired of these hypocrites who continue to spew their garbage and insist that as certified AMT professionals, we are not deserving of a fair and livable wage with benefits. These kind of people often are making substantially more than the average American and think that they and they alone deserve this. Be gone hypocrites and let those of us who actually have experience and know about the aviation industry discuss our issues without your warped, biased view of labor issues. These same people will tell you that the pharmaceutical companies that continue to raise the price of drugs even though most of their research is done in univeristies and subsidized by us tax payers, and the oil companies who continue to raise the price of gas even though the supply is plentiful, is ethical business practice. These people spend their time watching Fox News and listening to nazis like Glenn Beck. They will fly SouthWest and say it's fun to be treated like cattle and herded onto and off airplanes, but they demand first class treatment from AA and others even though they refuse to pay for it. It has not sunk into them that you get what you pay for and since they refuse to pay to be treated like royalty on AA planes, they have an axe to grind. Here is an analogy you and your kind may be able to relate to.... Why don't you go to your local BMW dealer and demand a car for the price of a Hyundai? The dealer would laugh you out of the building. Go spread your elitist propoganda elsewhere and spare us your view of the world from the penthouse.

AMEN !!!

 

[xUT]

Just look at how outsourcing affected Boeing's 787 project... A disaster!

Another item that will inevitably be raised by the management sorts is airlines being responsible for their aircraft.

The idea is to get some lacky at a foreign MRO with unearned but paid-for certificates to sign for an aircraft as being airworthy - should there be a crash, the responsibility then lies with whoever accomplished and signed for the work, not the airline, which is then free to collect insurance payments and direct lawsuits to those who signed for the work and their employer as the paperwork was correct and per FAA guidelines.

Someone explain to me how a foreign company can be sued.

Really now! No drug and alcohol testing for one......Why do you think the FAA and airlines don't insist on that on foreign soil, but insist on it here?
A real good explanation is what I am sure you will respond with.
A FAA inspector pal of mine says some of these joints don't even dispose of oils and fluids safely like they do in this country. But hey,,,,Not the airline's responsibility.

Thank God for insurance.....Not a bad pay day when an airliner goes down.


Not to the extent that the 787 has experienced. They outsourced to the extent where quality control was in someone else's hands.

You cannot win in a discussion with these elitists who constantly remind us working folks that we are scum and exist only to benefit them and their like. It is obvious to anyone with a conscience that to allow maintenance on airliners in foreign countries without the oversight and regulations that are required of anyone performing the same maintenance in the U.S. is not fair. The irony of this is that these elitists would be the first to sue on these grounds if there were an incident. I for one would like to know what kind of business these people who habitually post their warped ideas on fairness are involved in so we, as consumers, could then return the favor and slander them and their like on similar message boards. I for one am sick and tired of these hypocrites who continue to spew their garbage and insist that as certified AMT professionals, we are not deserving of a fair and livable wage with benefits. These kind of people often are making substantially more than the average American and think that they and they alone deserve this. Be gone hypocrites and let those of us who actually have experience and know about the aviation industry discuss our issues without your warped, biased view of labor issues. These same people will tell you that the pharmaceutical companies that continue to raise the price of drugs even though most of their research is done in univeristies and subsidized by us tax payers, and the oil companies who continue to raise the price of gas even though the supply is plentiful, is ethical business practice. These people spend their time watching Fox News and listening to nazis like Glenn Beck. They will fly SouthWest and say it's fun to be treated like cattle and herded onto and off airplanes, but they demand first class treatment from AA and others even though they refuse to pay for it. It has not sunk into them that you get what you pay for and since they refuse to pay to be treated like royalty on AA planes, they have an axe to grind. Here is an analogy you and your kind may be able to relate to.... Why don't you go to your local BMW dealer and demand a car for the price of a Hyundai? The dealer would laugh you out of the building. Go spread your elitist propoganda elsewhere and spare us your view of the world from the penthouse.

And how many of you yahoo's own American cars or American 'anything'?
When you rush out to buy crap, did you look at where it was made or the price?
When I worked in SA many moons ago, I was astonished that they didn't make anything except desalinated water. They even had to purchase sand from other countries because their sand (in the land of sand) was/is unusable in filtration.

Sorry folks, the time to make a difference was 15-20 years ago when people abandoned Merikan made products for foreign made. Can't turn that clock back now. The Merikan public does not care about Merika and that's the crux of the problem. Get ready for the hammer, we cocked it, now it's coming home.
Now 'we' don't make chit!

B) xUT

 

[OldGuy@AA]

And how many of you yahoo's own American cars or American 'anything'?
When you rush out to buy crap, did you look at where it was made or the price?
When I worked in SA many moons ago, I was astonished that they didn't make anything except desalinated water. They even had to purchase sand from other countries because their sand (in the land of sand) was/is unusable in filtration.

Sorry folks, the time to make a difference was 15-20 years ago when people abandoned Merikan made products for foreign made. Can't turn that clock back now. The Merikan public does not care about Merika and that's the crux of the problem. Get ready for the hammer, we cocked it, now it's coming home.
Now 'we' don't make chit!

B) xUT

I happen to drive a 1987 Ford F-150. I would love to buy a new one, but can't afford to. I try to buy American when at all possible. So try to spin that and justify it when you climb into your Lexus and drive to the country club.

 

[xUT]

I happen to drive a 1987 Ford F-150. I would love to buy a new one, but can't afford to. I try to buy American when at all possible. So try to spin that and justify it when you climb into your Lexus and drive to the country club.

OldGuy UR Funny...
Was the lexus and/or a club membership part of my PBGC cheese that I overlooked?