Who will be Terminator 3?
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Oliver Stone''s Apprentice
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- Aug 19, 2002
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The ink hasn''t even dried on Arpey''s business cards, and y''all are already looking for his replacement?...
Give him some time, OK? There is a lot going on that you haven''t seen yet. I didn''t see any indication of that either, until yesterday. Arpey called all managing directors and above to HDQ for a briefing, and the folks I''ve spoken to who were there are pretty confident that there is a viable plan, and it isn''t full of pie in the sky touchy-feely stuff.
Give him some time, OK? There is a lot going on that you haven''t seen yet. I didn''t see any indication of that either, until yesterday. Arpey called all managing directors and above to HDQ for a briefing, and the folks I''ve spoken to who were there are pretty confident that there is a viable plan, and it isn''t full of pie in the sky touchy-feely stuff.
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On 5/16/2003 8:49:31 AM eolesen wrote:
The ink hasn''t even dried on Arpey''s business cards, and y''all are already looking for his replacement?...
Give him some time, OK? There is a lot going on that you haven''t seen yet. I didn''t see any indication of that either, until yesterday. Arpey called all managing directors and above to HDQ for a briefing, and the folks I''ve spoken to who were there are pretty confident that there is a viable plan, and it isn''t full of pie in the sky touchy-feely stuff.
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When we will see proof of a "plan"?On 5/16/2003 8:49:31 AM eolesen wrote:
The ink hasn''t even dried on Arpey''s business cards, and y''all are already looking for his replacement?...
Give him some time, OK? There is a lot going on that you haven''t seen yet. I didn''t see any indication of that either, until yesterday. Arpey called all managing directors and above to HDQ for a briefing, and the folks I''ve spoken to who were there are pretty confident that there is a viable plan, and it isn''t full of pie in the sky touchy-feely stuff.
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And how much time do we really have to expose it?
Am I really the problem?
I ask a simple question, you post a sarcastic answer!
OK, when will we see implementation?
And isn't this really the Carty plan that Jim Little shafted him out of executing?
I likely wont dispute the existence of a plan, but it does seem hard to believe that Arpey isn't just going to carry on what Carty had already started with Arpey's involvement. You make it sound as though Arpey took over and everything changed. AMR is too large, a move that quick would be a miracle.
The most common asked question asked amongst the Mechanic and Related is the date of the MCI Maintenance Base closure. Any guess Eric?
I ask a simple question, you post a sarcastic answer!
OK, when will we see implementation?
And isn't this really the Carty plan that Jim Little shafted him out of executing?
I likely wont dispute the existence of a plan, but it does seem hard to believe that Arpey isn't just going to carry on what Carty had already started with Arpey's involvement. You make it sound as though Arpey took over and everything changed. AMR is too large, a move that quick would be a miracle.
The most common asked question asked amongst the Mechanic and Related is the date of the MCI Maintenance Base closure. Any guess Eric?
Oliver Stone''s Apprentice
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- Aug 19, 2002
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Why should I bother trying to prove anything to you, Dave?
Moses could appear in downtown Tulsa with the plan etched in triplicate on stone tablets, and you would probably still dispute its existance.
What's more important is how quickly we start to execute it.
Moses could appear in downtown Tulsa with the plan etched in triplicate on stone tablets, and you would probably still dispute its existance.
What's more important is how quickly we start to execute it.
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- Thread starter
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On 5/16/2003 8:49:31 AM eolesen wrote:
Arpey called all managing directors and above to HDQ for a briefing
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On 5/16/2003 8:49:31 AM eolesen wrote:
Arpey called all managing directors and above to HDQ for a briefing
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http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...0509_cheeta.jpg
MrMarky
Advanced
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On 5/16/2003 8:49:31 AM eolesen wrote:
The ink hasn''t even dried on Arpey''s business cards, and y''all are already looking for his replacement?...
Give him some time, OK? There is a lot going on that you haven''t seen yet. I didn''t see any indication of that either, until yesterday. Arpey called all managing directors and above to HDQ for a briefing, and the folks I''ve spoken to who were there are pretty confident that there is a viable plan, and it isn''t full of pie in the sky touchy-feely stuff.
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On 5/16/2003 8:49:31 AM eolesen wrote:
The ink hasn''t even dried on Arpey''s business cards, and y''all are already looking for his replacement?...
Give him some time, OK? There is a lot going on that you haven''t seen yet. I didn''t see any indication of that either, until yesterday. Arpey called all managing directors and above to HDQ for a briefing, and the folks I''ve spoken to who were there are pretty confident that there is a viable plan, and it isn''t full of pie in the sky touchy-feely stuff.
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I agree with you completely Eric. As you may recall, I was calling for Carty''s resignation six or eight months ago, long before it was the trendy thing to do. I simply felt that the guy at the top had to ultimately take responsibility for $billions in red ink, the disintegration of shareholder value and the utter lack of any business plan to turn the company around other than the usual attacks on labor costs.
Most posters, yourself included, responded to my rantings for Carty''s resignation by poo-pooing it as something that wouldn''t change a thing, and that the worst thing to do in the midst of such a financial crisis would be to dump experienced leadership and bring in a new guy who would have to learn the ropes. That''s the kind of logic that would have voted to re-elect Herbert Hoover.
Well now that Mr. Arpey is at the helm, plenty experienced and familiar with AA''s operations - both good and bad - it is time to give him a chance. I am impressed with his initial efforts and his youthful energy. Like Siegal at US, let''s give him a chance to pull the company back from the abyss. I think he has as good a chance as anyone, and perhaps better than most, of righting the AA ship and returning your company to profitability. Those who would criticize him after only 30 days at the helm are not credible.
Take care and best of luck,
mAArky
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On 5/16/2003 9
52 AM eolesen wrote:
Why should I bother trying to prove anything to you, Dave?
Moses could appear in downtown Tulsa with the plan etched in triplicate on stone tablets, and you would probably still dispute its existance.
What''s more important is how quickly we start to execute it.
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eolesen, to understand the Bob, Dave and Buck show, you might try to get a copy of "True Believers" by Eric Hoffer. A short read, he had those guys in mind, when he wrote his book.On 5/16/2003 9
52 AM eolesen wrote: Why should I bother trying to prove anything to you, Dave?
Moses could appear in downtown Tulsa with the plan etched in triplicate on stone tablets, and you would probably still dispute its existance.
What''s more important is how quickly we start to execute it.
----------------
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On 5/20/2003 1:23:44 PM nimbus wrote:
Hi folks. I am usually of the silent majority viewing your postings.
Whereas many of the responses here are very subjective (understandably given the morale at AA) I want to thank the objective posters that post insights into the many factors and confluences involved in operating a successful airline.
As for Arpey, he has a tough job ahead. Hoenstly, employees sceptism is 100% justified. He is seen as "cut from the same cloth" as his two predecessors ( 21 years under Crandall and Carty.)
As for a AA''s business plan. For the past two years, AA harked our most dangerous competition aere low cost carriers (eg. JetBlue). Yet, very little is ever mentioned about how we will compete with them. Delta has managed to come up with Song. I applaud Delta''s management for taking the initiative. Delta is showing itself determined to protect its territory by trying another marketing plans.
AA seemed focused alsewhere. JetBlue had a lower cost structure so AA cut its costs (Union/Mgmt pay and benefit cuts). Last week they anounced some supplier renegotiated contracts too. Where is AA casm now in regards to the competition??
AA hinges their success on 30% premium that passengers are go to pay on AA metal. Perhaps in places AA holds a dominate position but that position has eroded domestically in former strongholds markets like Transcons and SJU as Jetblue moved in.
In this economy a 30 % premium seems very ambitious. Ticket price is still the #1 determining factor by the majority of the flying public. For the past two years, we have been stagnantly waiting for enough passengers to pay that 30% instead of creating new marketing plans to promote business. Don;t we pay management team for this??
I look forward to hearing Mr. Arpey''s ideas. I hope its full of imaginative marketing ideas, solid utilization of of AMR/AA technology, and a human approach to employee relations.
BTW, This weekend, my friend flew Song to Florida and JetBlue back to NYC. They enjoyed the Song product very much. They see Song giving JetBlue a run for their money.
Some quick remarks of a subjective nature...
Has AMR went after the Top tier managers (and fomer AMR retirees/consulant)pay and perks? (eg. country club dues, leased cars, pensions, etc.)
Also, as far has JetBlue being a competitor, I still pay non-rev charges on AA (my employer) for International and Domestic trips. On top of my pay cut, I can not afford to use my travel benefits anymore
Well thats not totally true. As an airline employee, JetBlue (my airline''s competitor) allows me to fly free. I occassionally use them to commute to work. Why does my competitor treat me better than my employee?? That makes it hard to say anything bad about JetBlue It also makes me like JetBlue management more than my own home team.
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AA''s mainline yield for Q1 2003 was 37.9% higher (12.19 cents/mile) than B6''s Q1 2003 yield (8.84 cents/mile). So apparently AA IS getting a 38% revenue premium over B6. On 5/20/2003 1:23:44 PM nimbus wrote:
Hi folks. I am usually of the silent majority viewing your postings.
Whereas many of the responses here are very subjective (understandably given the morale at AA) I want to thank the objective posters that post insights into the many factors and confluences involved in operating a successful airline.
As for Arpey, he has a tough job ahead. Hoenstly, employees sceptism is 100% justified. He is seen as "cut from the same cloth" as his two predecessors ( 21 years under Crandall and Carty.)
As for a AA''s business plan. For the past two years, AA harked our most dangerous competition aere low cost carriers (eg. JetBlue). Yet, very little is ever mentioned about how we will compete with them. Delta has managed to come up with Song. I applaud Delta''s management for taking the initiative. Delta is showing itself determined to protect its territory by trying another marketing plans.
AA seemed focused alsewhere. JetBlue had a lower cost structure so AA cut its costs (Union/Mgmt pay and benefit cuts). Last week they anounced some supplier renegotiated contracts too. Where is AA casm now in regards to the competition??
AA hinges their success on 30% premium that passengers are go to pay on AA metal. Perhaps in places AA holds a dominate position but that position has eroded domestically in former strongholds markets like Transcons and SJU as Jetblue moved in.
In this economy a 30 % premium seems very ambitious. Ticket price is still the #1 determining factor by the majority of the flying public. For the past two years, we have been stagnantly waiting for enough passengers to pay that 30% instead of creating new marketing plans to promote business. Don;t we pay management team for this??
I look forward to hearing Mr. Arpey''s ideas. I hope its full of imaginative marketing ideas, solid utilization of of AMR/AA technology, and a human approach to employee relations.
BTW, This weekend, my friend flew Song to Florida and JetBlue back to NYC. They enjoyed the Song product very much. They see Song giving JetBlue a run for their money.
Some quick remarks of a subjective nature...
Has AMR went after the Top tier managers (and fomer AMR retirees/consulant)pay and perks? (eg. country club dues, leased cars, pensions, etc.)
Also, as far has JetBlue being a competitor, I still pay non-rev charges on AA (my employer) for International and Domestic trips. On top of my pay cut, I can not afford to use my travel benefits anymore
Well thats not totally true. As an airline employee, JetBlue (my airline''s competitor) allows me to fly free. I occassionally use them to commute to work. Why does my competitor treat me better than my employee?? That makes it hard to say anything bad about JetBlue It also makes me like JetBlue management more than my own home team.----------------
And that''s with AA''s greater reliance on business travelers and a far-flung domestic and international network. During a war and media-driven SARS epidemic that killed international bookings. Plus, AMR carries far more profitable freight than B6 can ever hope to carry.
What more can you ask for? And just wait til B6''s costs begin to escalate (when they have to start maintaining their all-new fleet and face union pressures).
Not to pile it on B6, but their Q1 2003 yield was DOWN 10.7% from 2002, while AA''s mainline yield was down only 2.6% from 2002. Think anyone is ever going to want to pay MORE for to fly B6??
JetBlue is not, I repeat, NOT as spectacular as some think. Don''t get me wrong - they are more successful than most startup carriers - but B6 does not walk on water.
WN is a different story, as their Q1 2003 yield was UP 2.6% to 11.99 from 11.69 in 2002. But they will never fly to Japan or Europe or SA, and it''s doubtful that its customers will willingly pay more than they are currently paying. Can AA get its 30% premium over WN? Who knows?
And UAL? AA''s Q1 2003 yield was 20% higher than UAL''s. AA''s full-year 2002 yield was higher than UAL''s 2002 yield.
Will AA always have a 30% revenue premium? Maybe not. But with a 38% revenue premium over everybody''s darling, B6, it is certainly possible. Things aren''t as bleak at AA as the doom and gloom crowd keep saying they are.
Hi folks. I am usually of the silent majority viewing your postings.
Whereas many of the responses here are very subjective (understandably given the morale at AA) I want to thank the objective posters that post insights into the many factors and confluences involved in operating a successful airline.
As for Arpey, he has a tough job ahead. Hoenstly, employees sceptism is 100% justified. He is seen as "cut from the same cloth" as his two predecessors ( 21 years under Crandall and Carty.)
As for a AA''s business plan. For the past two years, AA harked our most dangerous competition aere low cost carriers (eg. JetBlue). Yet, very little is ever mentioned about how we will compete with them. Delta has managed to come up with Song. I applaud Delta''s management for taking the initiative. Delta is showing itself determined to protect its territory by trying another marketing plans.
AA seemed focused alsewhere. JetBlue had a lower cost structure so AA cut its costs (Union/Mgmt pay and benefit cuts). Last week they anounced some supplier renegotiated contracts too. Where is AA casm now in regards to the competition??
AA hinges their success on 30% premium that passengers are go to pay on AA metal. Perhaps in places AA holds a dominate position but that position has eroded domestically in former strongholds markets like Transcons and SJU as Jetblue moved in.
In this economy a 30 % premium seems very ambitious. Ticket price is still the #1 determining factor by the majority of the flying public. For the past two years, we have been stagnantly waiting for enough passengers to pay that 30% instead of creating new marketing plans to promote business. Don;t we pay management team for this??
I look forward to hearing Mr. Arpey''s ideas. I hope its full of imaginative marketing ideas, solid utilization of of AMR/AA technology, and a human approach to employee relations.
BTW, This weekend, my friend flew Song to Florida and JetBlue back to NYC. They enjoyed the Song product very much. They see Song giving JetBlue a run for their money.
Some quick remarks of a subjective nature...
Has AMR went after the Top tier managers (and fomer AMR retirees/consulant)pay and perks? (eg. country club dues, leased cars, pensions, etc.)
Also, as far has JetBlue being a competitor, I still pay non-rev charges on AA (my employer) for International and Domestic trips. On top of my pay cut, I can not afford to use my travel benefits anymore Well thats not totally true. As an airline employee, JetBlue (my airline''s competitor) allows me to fly free. I occassionally use them to commute to work. Why does my competitor treat me better than my employee?? That makes it hard to say anything bad about JetBlue It also makes me like JetBlue management more than my own home team.
Whereas many of the responses here are very subjective (understandably given the morale at AA) I want to thank the objective posters that post insights into the many factors and confluences involved in operating a successful airline.
As for Arpey, he has a tough job ahead. Hoenstly, employees sceptism is 100% justified. He is seen as "cut from the same cloth" as his two predecessors ( 21 years under Crandall and Carty.)
As for a AA''s business plan. For the past two years, AA harked our most dangerous competition aere low cost carriers (eg. JetBlue). Yet, very little is ever mentioned about how we will compete with them. Delta has managed to come up with Song. I applaud Delta''s management for taking the initiative. Delta is showing itself determined to protect its territory by trying another marketing plans.
AA seemed focused alsewhere. JetBlue had a lower cost structure so AA cut its costs (Union/Mgmt pay and benefit cuts). Last week they anounced some supplier renegotiated contracts too. Where is AA casm now in regards to the competition??
AA hinges their success on 30% premium that passengers are go to pay on AA metal. Perhaps in places AA holds a dominate position but that position has eroded domestically in former strongholds markets like Transcons and SJU as Jetblue moved in.
In this economy a 30 % premium seems very ambitious. Ticket price is still the #1 determining factor by the majority of the flying public. For the past two years, we have been stagnantly waiting for enough passengers to pay that 30% instead of creating new marketing plans to promote business. Don;t we pay management team for this??
I look forward to hearing Mr. Arpey''s ideas. I hope its full of imaginative marketing ideas, solid utilization of of AMR/AA technology, and a human approach to employee relations.
BTW, This weekend, my friend flew Song to Florida and JetBlue back to NYC. They enjoyed the Song product very much. They see Song giving JetBlue a run for their money.
Some quick remarks of a subjective nature...
Has AMR went after the Top tier managers (and fomer AMR retirees/consulant)pay and perks? (eg. country club dues, leased cars, pensions, etc.)
Also, as far has JetBlue being a competitor, I still pay non-rev charges on AA (my employer) for International and Domestic trips. On top of my pay cut, I can not afford to use my travel benefits anymore
Well thats not totally true. As an airline employee, JetBlue (my airline''s competitor) allows me to fly free. I occassionally use them to commute to work. Why does my competitor treat me better than my employee?? That makes it hard to say anything bad about JetBlue It also makes me like JetBlue management more than my own home team.AC AA LA FA
Veteran
What went on behind closed doors at Hdq is something I can only hope,is the change that now is vital to our survival. The JB/Song..ect factor must be looked at and improved upon--(i am talking marketing..not hub and spoke..ect)
As I have always said the AA product is stale..and not a good overall value for any% premium..The Song tie in w/ DAl gives FFM..JB has the industry cornered in inovation and price...as stated above..even AAers like JB mgmt better than ours...I have a hard time saying anything bad about JB and hope they prosper and are a driving force in change in airline mgmt/operation.
What is Arpeys take on image at AA? Anyone know-Is he more a numbers/numbers..old school guy..or can he see the benefit of a new image and marketing revamp at AA...How about a fresh logo? New updated uniforms-gate areas?-DL and UA have far better in both catagories..ours look piece mealed together....
I will have my ears open for any news and continue to contact HDQ weekley to express my thoughts and concerns....
As I have always said the AA product is stale..and not a good overall value for any% premium..The Song tie in w/ DAl gives FFM..JB has the industry cornered in inovation and price...as stated above..even AAers like JB mgmt better than ours...I have a hard time saying anything bad about JB and hope they prosper and are a driving force in change in airline mgmt/operation.
What is Arpeys take on image at AA? Anyone know-Is he more a numbers/numbers..old school guy..or can he see the benefit of a new image and marketing revamp at AA...How about a fresh logo? New updated uniforms-gate areas?-DL and UA have far better in both catagories..ours look piece mealed together....
I will have my ears open for any news and continue to contact HDQ weekley to express my thoughts and concerns....
Oliver Stone''s Apprentice
Veteran
- Aug 19, 2002
- 786
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On 5/20/2003 1:23:44 PM nimbus wrote:
As for a AA''s business plan. For the past two years, AA harked our most dangerous competition are low cost carriers (eg. JetBlue). Yet, very little is ever mentioned about how we will compete with them.
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On 5/20/2003 1:23:44 PM nimbus wrote:
As for a AA''s business plan. For the past two years, AA harked our most dangerous competition are low cost carriers (eg. JetBlue). Yet, very little is ever mentioned about how we will compete with them.
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I guess I missed that part where we started competing head to head with Jetblue out of LGB, and ran ads which touted "discount prices without discount service" or whatever the tagline was.
Whatever we did, loads on our JFK-LGB flights are running in the high 70''s so far for the month, and that''s before the holiday weekend.
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On 5/20/2003 1:23:44 PM nimbus wrote:
Also, as far has JetBlue being a competitor, I still pay non-rev charges on AA (my employer) for International and Domestic trips. On top of my pay cut, I can not afford to use my travel benefits anymore Well thats not totally true. As an airline employee, JetBlue (my airline''s competitor) allows me to fly free. I occassionally use them to commute to work. Why does my competitor treat me better than my employee?? That makes it hard to say anything bad about JetBlue It also makes me like JetBlue management more than my own home team.
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On 5/20/2003 1:23:44 PM nimbus wrote:
Also, as far has JetBlue being a competitor, I still pay non-rev charges on AA (my employer) for International and Domestic trips. On top of my pay cut, I can not afford to use my travel benefits anymore
Well thats not totally true. As an airline employee, JetBlue (my airline''s competitor) allows me to fly free. I occassionally use them to commute to work. Why does my competitor treat me better than my employee?? That makes it hard to say anything bad about JetBlue It also makes me like JetBlue management more than my own home team.----------------
It''s a trade-off for all those folks at JFK who work for both JetBlue and AA -- they TL or CS off from AA (some probably call in sick...) so that they can work part-time for Jetblue. Meanwhile, AA continues to foot the bill for their healthcare and retirement...
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On 5/20/2003 11:55:09 AM j7915 wrote:
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Another mindless sarcastic remark.On 5/20/2003 11:55:09 AM j7915 wrote:
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On 5/16/2003 952 AM eolesen wrote:
Why should I bother trying to prove anything to you, Dave?
Moses could appear in downtown Tulsa with the plan etched in triplicate on stone tablets, and you would probably still dispute its existance.
What's more important is how quickly we start to execute it.
----------------
eolesen, to understand the Bob, Dave and Buck show, you might try to get a copy of "True Believers" by Eric Hoffer. A short read, he had those guys in mind, when he wrote his book.On 5/16/2003 9
52 AM eolesen wrote: Why should I bother trying to prove anything to you, Dave?
Moses could appear in downtown Tulsa with the plan etched in triplicate on stone tablets, and you would probably still dispute its existance.
What's more important is how quickly we start to execute it.
----------------
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Those TWU defenders are tough to debate. They are just full of personal attacks and deflections from the TWU record. Look at NWA, Look at UAL, Look at USAIR, but whatever you do....DON'T LOOK AT YOUR OWN PAYCHECK, YOUR OWN MASSIVE FARMOUT OF WORK, AND YOUR OWN LIFTING OF JOB SECURITY PROVISIONS, YOUR OWN LAYOFFS, YOUR OWN PAY AND BENEFIT CUTS.
JUST KEEP LOOKING EVERYWHERE ELSE, EXCEPT YOUR OWN WORTHLESS UNION!
Oh yeah, where is that all powerful AFL-CIO when you need them?
>>>It''s a trade-off for all those folks at JFK who work for both JetBlue and AA -- they TL or CS off from AA (some probably call in sick...) so that they can work part-time for Jetblue. Meanwhile, AA continues to foot the bill for their healthcare and retirement...
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On 5/20/2003 5:07:14 PM RV4 wrote:
Those TWU defenders are tough to debate. They are just full of personal attacks and deflections from the TWU record. Look at NWA, Look at UAL, Look at USAIR, but whatever you do....DON''T LOOK AT YOUR OWN PAYCHECK, YOUR OWN MASSIVE FARMOUT OF WORK, AND YOUR OWN LIFTING OF JOB SECURITY PROVISIONS, YOUR OWN LAYOFFS, YOUR OWN PAY AND BENEFIT CUTS.
JUST KEEP LOOKING EVERYWHERE ELSE, EXCEPT YOUR OWN WORTHLESS UNION!
Oh yeah, where is that all powerful AFL-CIO when you need them?
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On 5/20/2003 5:07:14 PM RV4 wrote:
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On 5/20/2003 11:55:09 AM j7915 wrote:
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Another mindless sarcastic remark.On 5/20/2003 11:55:09 AM j7915 wrote:
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On 5/16/2003 952 AM eolesen wrote:
Why should I bother trying to prove anything to you, Dave?
Moses could appear in downtown Tulsa with the plan etched in triplicate on stone tablets, and you would probably still dispute its existance.
What''s more important is how quickly we start to execute it.
----------------
eolesen, to understand the Bob, Dave and Buck show, you might try to get a copy of "True Believers" by Eric Hoffer. A short read, he had those guys in mind, when he wrote his book.On 5/16/2003 9
52 AM eolesen wrote: Why should I bother trying to prove anything to you, Dave?
Moses could appear in downtown Tulsa with the plan etched in triplicate on stone tablets, and you would probably still dispute its existance.
What''s more important is how quickly we start to execute it.
----------------
----------------
Those TWU defenders are tough to debate. They are just full of personal attacks and deflections from the TWU record. Look at NWA, Look at UAL, Look at USAIR, but whatever you do....DON''T LOOK AT YOUR OWN PAYCHECK, YOUR OWN MASSIVE FARMOUT OF WORK, AND YOUR OWN LIFTING OF JOB SECURITY PROVISIONS, YOUR OWN LAYOFFS, YOUR OWN PAY AND BENEFIT CUTS.
JUST KEEP LOOKING EVERYWHERE ELSE, EXCEPT YOUR OWN WORTHLESS UNION!
Oh yeah, where is that all powerful AFL-CIO when you need them?
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NW: They haven''t finalized consesions yet... they haven''t even started. Using them without knowing what is going to happen or WN the only carrier that makes money as an example of what AMFA may bring to the table seems like an illusion. Time will tell but if NW does not get labor consesions they will go out of business. They do not have any assets to put as colateral for DIP financing in BK so may file before what many people are thinking.
UA and US: I think we can spend the rest of our lives arguing lower paycut more outsoucing/layoffs vs. the opposite but in terms of bottom line $$$ their contracts less expensive than ours from a company perspective.
air_guy
