When You Fly in First Class, It's Easy to Forget the Dots

[casual rat]

There's more to come (as far as employee gouging is concerned)...While in search of revenue--we lose it (in the form of domestic mail contracts). Instead of charging a fee for changing itinerary ($25.00 to $50.00 for example), we don't for some reason....Seems like there are many opportunities for revenue generation that go ignored...Why? I think our 'gifted', executives of the 'highest integrity' are positioning us for another round of excuses....

 

[spacewaitress]

How about charging a fee to all the yahoos that buy the cheap seats at the last minute via internet on the late flights and then come early to stand by on the flights that all of us are trying to commute on. I mean, what a rip. Forget that it's commuter's hell...these people work the system and UAL lets 'em do it. At the very least UAL should look at the fare and charge accordingly!

WorldTraveler said, "not those that look for every opportunity to rape and pillage and then convince the people that was necessary."

Right, fricking on MAN...any fool can come in and 1)declare bankruptcy; 2) negotiate lower payments on current contracts; 3) screw the employees! Hell, I know ordinary Joe Boes that've done that. It doesn't take a wizard!

It's such a boring strategy. No creativity involved. Anyone coulda done it!


Right on Casual...we lose the USPS contract...which has always been prime property...and UAL says they decided to turn their attention to the passenger. Give me a fu*cking break. Who are they trying to kid. This company is sooooooooooo fu*^%cked up it's incredible. Like it's no big deal. They screw EVERYTHING up!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Fly]

Hmmm, so Space must be close to finishing his nursing degree. He's getting feisty. (LOL.....sorry, but couldn't help myself)

 

[sastal]

I can't believe I missed this post....glad it was resurrected so I could see it. I had to take a quick look at the bottom to make sure I didn't write it.

Fly,
I truly feel sorry for you if you think you have to be personally torn apart in order for UA to turn around. It is precisely those companies that recognize the value of their people that successfully emerge from bankruptcy and become viable competitors again, not those that look for every opportunity to rape and pillage and then convince the people that was necessary.

Amen, WorldTraveler (and Spacewaitress)!

 

[JAMAKE1]

Fly, this is your best post ever on US Aviation.

Agreed!

 

[Fly]

I can't believe I missed this post....glad it was resurrected so I could see it. I had to take a quick look at the bottom to make sure I didn't write it.

Fly,
I truly feel sorry for you if you think you have to be personally torn apart in order for UA to turn around. It is precisely those companies that recognize the value of their people that successfully emerge from bankruptcy and become viable competitors again, not those that look for every opportunity to rape and pillage and then convince the people that was necessary.

Do you mean like what Delta is doing to their pilots? Or do you still drink the KoolAid and think the pilots LIKE greasing up their butts so they can fly your sorry one around?

 

[spacewaitress]

Hmmm, so Space must be close to finishing his nursing degree. He's getting feisty. (LOL.....sorry, but couldn't help myself)

Not so fast...I just wonder at the spin at this place(UAL)! (But maybe by Fall 07)

 

[The Gopher]

Wait, Mr. Tilton and Mr. Bankruptcy Judge. The employees were the owners of UAL. They were the trustors, and Mr. Tilton and his pals were trustees for them. How were the trustors wiped out while the trustees, the fiduciaries, became fantastically rich? Is this the way capitalism is supposed to work? Trustors save up, and their agents just take their savings away from them?

If the company is worth so much that management has hundreds of millions coming to them, shouldn't the employee-owners get a taste? Does capitalism mean anything if the owners of the capital can be wiped out while their agents grow wealthy? Is this a way to encourage savings and the ownership society? Or is this a matter of to him who hath shall be given?

Hold on, Mr Stein. Tilton wasn't even on the property when most of these problems happened. But who was? ALPA for one, which 'struck' during the infamous "Summer of 2000". This one event has eroded customer confidence more than any act of management. These are both the 'Trustors' and 'Trustees', since they (at that point) both owned and operated the company.

Second, if bankruptcy is such a sin, why is this hostility bestowed on UAL, which is just one of nearly 200 airlines to file Chapter 11 since 1980? And as for the 'agents growing wealthy', remember that their wealth was ONLY a function of both the bankruptcy court and the creditor's committee, which included employees. One cannot claim that they were/are 'skimming' or pulling Enron-style accounting. Look at NWA for an idea of how bad it COULD be. NW has replaced a whole block of former union staff, and is threatening to outsource all foreign flights with foreign FAs, as well as replace all ground staff at non-hub locations. Also, remember that chunk of UAUA stock you received after BK exit? That wasn't mandated.

Finally, no one is working here because they are enslaved or under obligation. The same forces that forced our hand into bankruptcy, namely hyper-competition (both for customers and labor), can work in the employees favor. However, given the nature of the business, much of the labor used at an airline has little cross-applicability into other industries, at least at the salary you're used to. I'm sick of the folks who have no other real job options whining about a paycut that, deep down, they know they'll have to take because thay have only a high school diploma and 20 years of Apollo experience. Consumers are voting with their feet, and the free market economy is working just how it is supposed to.

 

[dc3fanatic]

Just for the record Ben Stein was a speechwriter for no less than Richard Nixon if memory serves me correctly. I don't recall Nixon being pro union.

Frankly I can find little is any fault with the article which BTW is an OPINION piece and therefore are allowed to be one sided.

Hey maybe UA lost his luggage?

See Post #24 with specific reference to 'Summer of 2000'. Things were really out of wack, in no small part brought on by the owners and employees.

 

[Busdrvr]

WADR, Gopher and DC3, you have no idea what you're talking about.

1. The employees were the "owners" in name ONLY. For over half the equity (bought at a cost SIGNIFICANTLY higher than market rates), the employees got a grand total of 3 seats, with one controlled by the "system roundtable" (ie, management), one controlled by a national union rep who never even worked at ual, and ALPA. ESOP WAS a fable.

2. Tilton fired a few folks, but kept quite a few of the main problem. We now have a management team that is even MORE anti-worker.

3. The company WAS WARNED prior to summer 2K that the airline was NOT properly manned. While there was certainly frustration from the lack of progress at the bargaining table (you know, that place us OWNERS were sitting trying to recover from years of industry lagging pay and benefits bestoyed by the TRUSTEES), the manning level certainly played a huge roll in the problems.

4. Tilton wants to have his executive team payed based on what other executives get paid. UAL had about 100 cancellations today due to lack of crews. THIS IS THE SECOND SUMMER IN A ROW THIS HAS HAPPENED!! He fired the "responsible" party last summer, and he will surely find another "fall guy" this year. How many times does it take before he figures out it's HIS fault. His over compensated monkeys in Chicago implement HIS policies. Manpower could fly ALL the flights if they were allowed to man the airline FULLY. TILTON'S POLICIES PREVENT IT. Meanwhile, this crack team that will likely lead the league in cancellation this summer "DESERVES" 20% of the company? GMAFB. Ben Stein (the right wing ECONOMIST) is dead on. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If Glen tilton produces profits with employees that are paid at least league average, can pay pilots flying airplanes capable of carrying 500 pax (747-400) what the "profitable" SWA pay's it's pilot's to fly a 134 seat airplane, then I'll be the FIRST in line declaring that he DESERVES to be paid the big money. But when you pay bottom scale, have some of the most plumb "protected" routes in the industry, and still can't make it work, then I'm sorry, it's time to retire, without a big buyout. And before you declare that I'm some lefty unionist hack, let me be clear, I WAS a Tilton supporter, I've got 2 masters: MBA and MS Econ, and I'm one of the most RIGHT wing guys you'll EVER run into.

5. Before you make the ignorant statement that we could all go work somewhere else (I have), please look up the terms "monopsony" and "oligopsony" and study the implications of them on a highly skilled VERY specialized profession.

 

[sastal]

I’m not exactly sure what your point is about the MBA. Gopher and I have MBAs, too, as well as other graduate degrees and professional designations. You totally dodged Gopher’s point regarding the strike that you and your boys took in the summer of 2000. It wasn’t a planning issue on UA’s part, it was about you literally screwing the airline’s operations while losing all credibility in the eyes of the customer. It doesn’t take a course in derivatives to figure that out. You can’t exactly staff a 777 sitting at a gate in Frankfurt on a hot summer day, while your pilots decide to call in sick at the downtown layover hotel (true story). Should United have borrowed its cockpit crew from Lufthansa, maybe? And yet many passengers stayed or returned, perhaps understanding that UA is better than any other U.S. airline out there.

I am glad to hear you give little weight to the pilots’ employee ownership. I wish I had heard such a humble stance while I was at United, instead of the perpetual, “We own this place, man!†or “Look what we got ya –free passes!†after managing to negotiate a contract that wasn’t sustainable. What a bunch of fools.

As for the “highly skilled profession†bit, it’s good to hear that some pilots still haven’t lost that cocky touch. Though I am even happier to see their salaries more in line with what industry standards should be.

I agree with the right-wing-guy comment, but my-oh-my have you changed on some issues! What happened, Bus, too many Portland layovers? Is Colorado turning blue?

 

[Fly]

How convienent for you to change history.

There was NO strike in 2000!

There was NO sickout in 2000!

There was supposed to be a "seamless contract" for the cuts they took for ESOP. That did NOT happen.

There WAS a refusal by the pilots to pick up EXTRA flying.

If management had provided the "seamless contract" that had been negotiated at the beginning of the ESOP plan (the plan that caused all groups except the flight attendants to take huge cuts in pay in exchange for ESOP), there never would have been a refusal by the pilots to not pick up the extra flying.

If you don't have enough pilots to cover the existing flying, then start hiring. Don't sit back and expect the pilots to help you out.

fyi - in March of this year, ALPA told the company that they needed more pilots, the company didn't listen. Flights are cancelling like crazy because there are no pilots to fly the trips. Big surprise.

 

[dc3fanatic]

WADR, Gopher and DC3, you have no idea what you're talking about.

All right, through all your points above, where is UA going wrong?

Is it your contention they aren't doing everything they can to maximize revenue? If not, where are they leaving significant amounts of revenue on the table?

How about expenses? Are they scheduling (people, planes, gates, etc . . .) (significantly) inefficiently? If so, where?

Are they doing a bad job of buying fuel? If so, where and how? I understand it would have been great to hedge all of fuel 10 years out in 2000. Let's stick with what can be done today, not what should have been done.

 

[Fly]

Here's a suggestion:

How about properly hiring administative staff to do administrative type duties (ie - filing, computer entry, returning phone calls, etc.)? We have supervisors doing simple, time consuming duties instead of focusing on what they are really hired to do. Not only would you have the ability to get rid of some excessive management but you'd make them able to do their jobs in a more productive manor. The savings would be enormous considering what it costs to hire supervisors vs the cost to hire filing clerks. You would accomplish the goals of saving $$, eliminating some of the 1000 salaried jobs, and restoring some of the remaining supervisors dignity. Right now, it looks like you have some very costly filing clerks.

And let's not even begin to address the problems in baggage claim. Not sure what I mean? Go lose a bag and see how that works for you. SFO is a REAL eye-opener. (BITTER doesn't even begin to describe the employees working there)

 

[dc3fanatic]

Here's a suggestion:

How about properly hiring administative staff to do administrative type duties (ie - filing, computer entry, returning phone calls, etc.)? We have supervisors doing simple, time consuming duties instead of focusing on what they are really hired to do. Not only would you have the ability to get rid of some excessive management but you'd make them able to do their jobs in a more productive manor. The savings would be enormous considering what it costs to hire supervisors vs the cost to hire filing clerks. You would accomplish the goals of saving $$, eliminating some of the 1000 salaried jobs, and restoring some of the remaining supervisors dignity. Right now, it looks like you have some very costly filing clerks.

And let's not even begin to address the problems in baggage claim. Not sure what I mean? Go lose a bag and see how that works for you. SFO is a REAL eye-opener. (BITTER doesn't even begin to describe the employees working there)

excellent, that's a start . . .