We need cheap fares to compete....

[eolesen]

Thats a lie. Our wages are 40 to 50% lower than they were during the regulated era. SWA pays a lot more than any of the legacies, even Jet Blue pays more.

Pays more, or has a higher total compensation package?

What do employees at Jetbleu pay for insurance, and what type of coverage do they have? How does their dental, disability or life insurance compared to what AMR offers?

How about retirement? How much per active and retired employee is AA having to fund? Last number I saw was about $640M for the year, or about $8000 for every active employee (no idea how many actual active and retired participants are in the plan). That same figure in a 401K contribution would easily be 12-15% of salary, and I know neither B6 or WN are contributing that much...

Focus on a single data point, and you can make just about any argument you want to. But when you look at the whole package, the picture changes quite a bit.

 

[TWU informer]

Must sell seats at a loss

Must sell seats at a loss

Must get bonus award for selling seats at a loss

Must get bonus award for selling seats at a loss

Must get concessions from employees because I sell seats at a loss

Must get concessions from employees because I sell seats at a loss

 

[Bob Owens]

Pays more, or has a higher total compensation package?

What do employees at Jetbleu pay for insurance, and what type of coverage do they have? How does their dental, disability or life insurance compared to what AMR offers?

How about retirement? How much per active and retired employee is AA having to fund? Last number I saw was about $640M for the year, or about $8000 for every active employee (no idea how many actual active and retired participants are in the plan). That same figure in a 401K contribution would easily be 12-15% of salary, and I know neither B6 or WN are contributing that much...

Focus on a single data point, and you can make just about any argument you want to. But when you look at the whole package, the picture changes quite a bit.

Are you trying to say that I should add $8000 to my compensation package because of the pension? Even if that was a fair comparasion you wouldnt divide it evenly across the board because some people get much bigger pensions than others. How much of that $640 million is just for management? Half?

If AA has to put that much in its because they didnt invest wisely and they have to make up for not investing wisely or funding it properly in earlier years. Your buddy FWAAA has posted several times about how AA has enjoyed lower pension costs than SWA.

Employees at Continental have pretty much everything we have-including a Pension, their hourly rate is higher and the get all their Holidays, sick time vacation etc. Continental filed for BK twice.

 

[Bob Owens]

Pays more, or has a higher total compensation package?

What do employees at Jetbleu pay for insurance, and what type of coverage do they have? How does their dental, disability or life insurance compared to what AMR offers?

How about retirement? How much per active and retired employee is AA having to fund? Last number I saw was about $640M for the year, or about $8000 for every active employee (no idea how many actual active and retired participants are in the plan). That same figure in a 401K contribution would easily be 12-15% of salary, and I know neither B6 or WN are contributing that much...

Focus on a single data point, and you can make just about any argument you want to. But when you look at the whole package, the picture changes quite a bit.

All you have to do is go to the AANegotiations website, its the one the company puts out and you can see the MAX FULL-UP HOURLY PAY RATES as of Jan 2009. We are # 5 out of 8. All the carriers that pay less went BK and the gap between us and the bottom is smaller than the gap between us and the top. We are less than $3/hr from the bottom but more than $7/hr from the top. Those are AA"s numbers.

By the companys own figures from what they call my Total Value Statement my Pension was worth $1200/ year for the past several years, compared to SWA which with OT could easily go to $8000/year.

Of all the airlines listed WN, B6,FL,CO,AA,DL,UA,US, to the best of my knowledge we have the least and lowest Holiday pay rates, least amount of Vacation, least amount of sick accrual, stiffest penalty for getting sick and stingiest profit sharing/performace plan. When you factor in these differences the 24 cent an hour difference between us and Continental comes out to around $10k a year. Continental has just as good of a pension because we lose the first year towards our pension (so that makes up for the 0,02% difference in the multiplier plus I hear they provide a 401K contribution in addition to the pension.

 

[Barfbag]

Of all the airlines listed WN, B6,FL,CO,AA,DL,UA,US,

Hello, it's no longer about us vs them ( OALs ) it's, about AA vs the consumer.

The consumer's fingers votes on your labor contracts by pressing buttons on his keyboard, that gives him/her the lowest fare on the internet.

There is no brand loyalty among todays travelers. I recently overheard two men purchase airline tickets to Florida from NY. In the end one guy buys the ticket online for $ 10. difference between the two carriers.

One of the men comments, I'll use the $ 10. to buy some carry-on food at the airport.

 

[FWAAA]

There is no brand loyalty among todays travelers. I recently overheard two men purchase airline tickets to Florida from NY. In the end one guy buys the ticket online for $ 10. difference between the two carriers.

You're right about that. Sounds like it could have been one of your TWU-represented co-workers, like this employee who was happy to buy a positive space ticket on B6 instead of AA for April 23 travel a few years ago even though non-rev travel on AA would have been easy that late in April:

http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php...&hl=jetblue

The good news is that according to Bob Owens, the non-loyal vacationers who care about $10 savings aren't the profitable customers anyway, so AA can do without them.

 

[MCI transplant]

You're right about that. Sounds like it could have been one of your TWU-represented co-workers, like this employee who was happy to buy a positive space ticket on B6 instead of AA for April 23 travel a few years ago even though non-rev travel on AA would have been easy that late in April:

http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php...&hl=jetblue

The good news is that according to Bob Owens, the non-loyal vacationers who care about $10 savings aren't the profitable customers anyway, so AA can do without them.

<_< -----Loyalty is something that has to be earned, and AA hasn't exactly inspired the "Loyalty!" of it's employees!------ On the other hand, I'll be going to lunch today, at one of our local restaurants, with approx. 300 exTWAers that do this every other month! So what does that tell you? ------ But, you wouldn't know anything about that, now would you? :huh:

 

[The Goose]

<_< -----Loyalty is something that has to be earned, and AA hasn't exactly inspired the "Loyalty!" of it's employees!------ On the other hand, I'll be going to lunch today, at one of our local restaurants, with approx. 300 exTWAers that do this every other month! So what does that tell you? ------ But, you wouldn't know anything about that, now would you? :huh:

 

[eolesen]

Loyalty is something that has to be earned

Loyalty works both ways.... Self-imposed segregation (i.e. continuing to identify yourself as ex-TW vs. current or retired AA) doesn't go very far to foster a sense of loyalty with your co-worker, union, or employer.

 

[MCI transplant]

Loyalty works both ways.... Self-imposed segregation (i.e. continuing to identify yourself as ex-TW vs. current or retired AA) doesn't go very far to foster a sense of loyalty with your co-worker, union, or employer.

<_< ------Agreed! But please try to understand something here. I, and most, exTWAers worked for TWA a lot longer than AA. We had gone through two bankruptcies, Carl Ichon, and the demise of, what we perceived as, a once great Airlines, and more!---- When we were Merged/were Bought out, or whatever you want to call it, we weren't exactly welcomed with open arms! (and I'm trying to be diplomatic here!) There has to be a first step in this relationship! (Both ways!) So what was AA's? ----- Well one of the first, was a slap in the face when AA took the 737 "C" check away from us for nothing more than political reasons! And the relationship, even though we've surmounted all obstacles AA through at us, has been going down hill ever since, to the point of "almost" extinction! Which many of exTWAers perceive, weather true, or not, believe to be intensional!! -------So, tell me again about our Loyalty to AA!----- Respect, to a point yes!---- Loyal? I don't think so! At least not in the same way as that of our fellow exTWA Comrade's. They've earned it! ----- AA hasn't! But for those that are still working for AA, let's hope in time maybe!

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

You're right about that. Sounds like it could have been one of your TWU-represented co-workers, like this employee who was happy to buy a positive space ticket on B6 instead of AA for April 23 travel a few years ago even though non-rev travel on AA would have been easy that late in April:

http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php...&hl=jetblue

The good news is that according to Bob Owens, the non-loyal vacationers who care about $10 savings aren't the profitable customers anyway, so AA can do without them.

Do it all over again in a second got to love that sattelite TV in each seat.

Not to mention a little excitement
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyiHRq-wX8U


We know why you fly
:bleh:

 

[Winglet]

Loyalty? I don't think there's hardly anyone at AMR that's "loyal." The incredible lack of leadership at the top does not inspire or value loyalty. What you get in return for loyalty around AMR is a bunch of business school cheap insincere PR rhetoric. The minute I find something better, I'm outta here. Just like the "top talent" executives.

The price shoppers (most leisure travelers) will spend 3 hours on the computer trying to save $10, but don't mind spending $10 for a cup of coffee and a doughnut from a grossly overpriced coffee stand. Just symptom of why this country is headed for the toilet at Mach 3.

 

[eolesen]

The price shoppers (most leisure travelers) will spend 3 hours on the computer trying to save $10, but don't mind spending $10 for a cup of coffee and a doughnut from a grossly overpriced coffee stand. Just symptom of why this country is headed for the toilet at Mach 3.

Don't know if you've bought a paper lately (for the few still left in business), but Starbucks has closed almost 1,000 stores in the past 18 months, sold one of the two corporate jets, given pay cuts to senior managers, and trimmed back their international expansion...

Sure, there are some people who will pay $10 for coffee and a pastry (donuts are just too low end...), but it's a shrinking number.

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

The price shoppers (most leisure travelers) will spend 3 hours on the computer trying to save $10, but don't mind spending $10 for a cup of coffee and a doughnut from a grossly overpriced coffee stand. Just symptom of why this country is headed for the toilet at Mach 3.

I don't agree.

Perhaps the $10 they saved on airfare buys them the 'luxury' cup of coffee & doughnut.

Value. That is why WN doesn't need to be the lowest price.

Your customers don't owe you a certain standard of living.

Earn it every day and price won't be an issue.

 

[Bob Owens]

The good news is that according to Bob Owens, the non-loyal vacationers who care about $10 savings aren't the profitable customers anyway, so AA can do without them.

According to me? Thats the arguement thats been coming from your camp for the last five years.
'Premium and Business travelers, thats where the money is." Thats why we section off a third of the cabin space with less dense seating right?