Voluntary Options Opening

[WorldTraveler]

To save jobs, APFA would like to see some kind of a buy out. The reason that I don't see this happening is pure economics.

Let's say that ### senior f/a's took the buy out at whatever price.
You have now removed ### f/a's at max pay but you still have 950 former TWA f/a's who are sitting at the bottom of the seniority
list making max pay. The problem doesn't go away.

AA has been saying that they would like to hire 2000 new flight attendants.
It costs AA $3,059,000 per month in base pay for the bottom 950 f/a's.
It would cost AA $2,833,600 to pay 2000 new hires in base pay per month.

I'm not saying that this is right, I'm just pointing out the numbers.

precisely.... buyouts work from the company's perspective by hoping to offset the natural increase in costs that happen during layoffs which gut the company of the lowest paid employees while leaving the highest paid employees on the books. Given that AA needs to trim its employee ranks by more than 10K (a number I suggested a long time ago) there can't ever be that many people who will take voluntary buyouts to really make a difference.... and once again, AA's workforce is much more top of scale than at other airlines anyway which means there are fewer low seniority/lower paid employees. The increase in costs by virtue of getting rid of the lowest seniority people will be more than offset by much deeper cuts across the board.
as with everything, we can see how it all works out - in this case not too far down the road.
I believe we will see that AA will offer as few buyouts as possible - and ultimately their cost savings will come from the big items listed and not because they replace

 

[nbmcg01]

To save jobs, APFA would like to see some kind of a buy out. The reason that I don't see this happening is pure economics.

Let's say that ### senior f/a's took the buy out at whatever price.
You have now removed ### f/a's at max pay but you still have 950 former TWA f/a's who are sitting at the bottom of the seniority
list making max pay. The problem doesn't go away.

AA has been saying that they would like to hire 2000 new flight attendants.
It costs AA $3,059,000 per month in base pay for the bottom 950 f/a's.
It would cost AA $2,833,600 to pay 2000 new hires in base pay per month.

I'm not saying that this is right, I'm just pointing out the numbers.
[/quote

1. I think it is pretty arrogant to assume someone should retire just because they are older and have been flying for many years. Talk about age discrimination! No one lives in someone else's "house" and just because there is a perception of wealth or even a cocky statement, don't be so sure you know the whole story,
2. The former TWA f/as have needed to fly until they are in their 70s to make up for the loss of retirement from Ichan, AA and the APFA. Had there been a fair integration most would have been able to retire now. I would imagine that everyone at AA is at max pay due to no hiring in 11 years. Once again, merging the former TWA workforce would have alleviated the seniority stagnation experienced for the past 11 years. But of course there wouldn't have been that nice furlough cushion enjoyed by so many. (my guess is there would have been much stronger efforts to save jobs had the "cushion" not been available) And now the "cushion" is just about gone and the realities on no furlough pay and the "poll tax" are going to hit hard. Want to take bets on how long it will take for the "poll tax" to be reversed?
3. The job market is tough, especially for the older worker (especially an angry older worker). Starting pay has gone down because hr depts know they can offer low. Age discrimination is alive and well. Multiple degrees are needed for ridiculous jobs (because they can require them) Don't think that "experience" will be a trade off as in past years. Make certain you have a good resume. Read EVERYTHING you can about a company you apply at...know the market BEFORE you interview.
4. I had a "moment" of missing flying the other day and then I realized I missed TWA flying not AA flying. When I saw the 3111 wish list I actually cried for you all. 50 years of collective bargaining gone...HIPAA violations abound with the idea of a managed care company being able to dictate your healthcare choices/decisions. For so many years many of you crammed down our throats about TWA bk (which was orchestrated by AA) and even our prior bks. I can tell you we NEVER experienced what you all are facing. Ours were pre-pac and we had creative union leadership and an amazing law firm to guide us. We also had a company that knew it was better to work with us (union added to BOD, participatory mangt) Any bk hurts but dear God, AA is unbelievable. I wonder how much of a cut in pay and benefits Horton and the gang are taking?

Please don't think that it is selfish to keep flying. You all never thought you'd be in this bk position and guess what, you will be older sooner than you think. Do you really want someone telling you that you've had "long enough" and you need to leave so they can have what you have worked for for so many years?

 

[jason77]

I dont think anyone is talking about the TWA people retiring.We all know what you have been through,but the the most senior person at AA was hired in 1958 need I say more.

 

[BoeingBoy]

But they have to get the court to change their CBA so the work can be outsourced if the unions dont agree.

Guess you forgot about that fact!

No one is talking about outsourcing FA's since it's virtually impossible to do so - where do you come up with this stuff. Unless there's a no furlough clause in the FA's contract, the court's permission is not required.

Jim

 

[jimntx]

NEWS ALERT!!!!

It was just announced on the ABC affiliate noon news here in Dallas that the APFA has informed them that they will tell the company in the first negotiating session that 5,000 flight attendants are prepared to retire if the company will offer some sort of early out package. Now, will the company plan that says 2300 f/as must be furloughed or logic prevail? I don't hold out much hope for the logic approach.

Ran into Liz Geiss in Ops at DFW today. She said the above is not true. Someone is again taking a piece of information--there are 5000 f/as who are 50 or older and eligible to retire and expanding that into "5000 f/as will retire." Sorry about that. What I get for trusting the local news.

Quite frankly, I would have guessed that there are a lot more than 5000 over age 50. There are 16000+ active flight attendants. The company published something just last summer that the average age of the AA flight attendant was now 50. Unless those 5000 are WAY over 50, how could 1/3 bring the average up to 50?

 

[BoeingBoy]

how could 1/3 bring the average up to 50?

You'd need the particulars to know how, or even know if it's true. Averages can yield odd results or can be manipulated.

Jim

 

[jason77]

Ran into Liz Geiss in Ops at DFW today. She said the above is not true. Someone is again taking a piece of information--there are 5000 f/as who are 50 or older and eligible to retire and expanding that into "5000 f/as will retire." Sorry about that. What I get for trusting the local news.

Quite frankly, I would have guessed that there are a lot more than 5000 over age 50. There are 16000+ active flight attendants. The company published something just last summer that the average age of the AA flight attendant was now 50. Unless those 5000 are WAY over 50, how could 1/3 bring the average up to 50?

 

[jason77]

The average age is 51.

 

[kirkpatrick]

AA has been saying that they would like to hire 2000 new flight attendants.
It costs AA $3,059,000 per month in base pay for the bottom 950 f/a's.
It would cost AA $2,833,600 to pay 2000 new hires in base pay per month.

I'm not saying that this is right, I'm just pointing out the numbers.

Your numbers don't really mean anything. The TWA people are here, at the bottom of the list. If they had been integrated with seniority, they'd still be here, just in a different position on the list. While it's true that the company is in the position where furloughing the bottom few hundred doesn't eliminate the lowest paid employees, that sitution cannot be helped.

Of course hiring new people would save the company money, not only in base pay (which is less than half top rate) but in health care and pension obligations. This is true for obvious reasons. The TWA people don't figure into the formula.

MK

 

[jimntx]

Kirkpatrick, one must accept that there are a number of AA employees who have one-track minds. That track holds that ALL of AA's problems began with the purchase of TWA. Everything was heaven on earth prior to that event. Their minds are made up. Please, do not attempt to confuse them with facts.

 

[damajagua]

Can we please move on with the TWA thing already. Yes you are right depending on what side you are
people view things different. My heart goes out to the TWA people. I wish things would have end up
differently but they are what they are. 911 change the world. While I did not agree with the TWA purchase
from the beginning the outcome would have probably have been much different if 911 had not happened.
But that discussion is for another time and place. Godd luck to all the US people this is nothing personal.
But for AA, US is not the light at the end of the tunnel it's more like move over a train is coming.
AA/US combo would be a disaster.

 

[jimntx]

Nice sentiment, D, but it is "nAAtive" AA employees who keep implying that all of the current problems are the result of the TW purchase. All of the former TW f/as and pilots with which I have had the pleasure of working decided a long time ago to move on with life as it is.

 

[bluebird]

"...[T]he the most senior person at AA was hired in 1958 need I say more."

They offered the 5 and 10 year separation but not the VBR or SIS this time. Do you think they will offer the VBR and SIS again? I wonder if the age limitation will ever come down if they do.

 

[enough already]

I dont think anyone is talking about the TWA people retiring.We all know what you have been through,but the the most senior person at AA was hired in 1958 need I say more.

The top guy on the Title I list has a freakin' July 1942 hire day!!!

 

[eolesen]

I'd be shocked to see the VBR or SIS come up as options, since they both imply severance and medical continuation.

Without that, what value is left to the employee? Travel?

If that's the goal, you'd probably have better luck lobbying to get the travel policy in Article 30 upgraded to unrestricted D2 instead of the annual allotment of 10 RTs.