Virgin Usa/ Us Airways?

PitBull and others.....the rolling hub effect takes the peaks and valleys out of the system. Instead of having 90 flights arrive in PHL in an hour, then sit for 30 minutes to allow for connections, then they all depart in 20 minutes, you will have a continuous flow in PHL. Put the idea of "banks" out of your head. Traffic will now flow at a consistant rate. Service to 'out" stations will increase as you provide service every couple of hours. In more popular destinations you can provide service every hour or 90 minutes.

Here is a snap shot of what happens today. Flight 100 is the first arrival in a "bank". The plane and crew pull to the gate and now the airplane has to wait for the other 89 airplanes to arrive to catch all the connections. So, if it takes an hour to get the 89 arrivals in, you have flight 100 on the ground for an hour....but you also have to allow for minimum connecting time. So when the lst flight is scheduled to arrive, you need to add 30 additional minutes. So now flight 100 will sit on the ground for 90 minutes before the airplane is back in the air generating revenue. If you can reduce the turn time of airplanes from 90 minutes to 35-40 minutes, you increase the utilization rate of the airplane, increasse revenues, increase employee productivity and lower costs.

Looking at it from a different prospective. I am an agent working gate C-25 in PHL. I am a full timer and work from 2-10:30p. I will work an average of 4 flights in my 8 hour shift. So I work at flight at 3, one at 6, one at 8 and one at 10p. With the rolling hub concept, I could have many more flights to work. I could have a flight every hour! So now I am working twice as many flights, utilizing the gate twice as much and making the employees twice as productive.

Look at it from a crew prosepctive. PitBull - I am sure you hear it all the time, how F/A's can't stand all the 2-3-4 hour productivity breaks that are scheduled into trip pairings. Part of the reason for this is because there are times that you (as a crew) will arrive on one bank and depart on the next. So you arrive and have to wait for one complex to arrive, then depart and the next to arrive, then you can depart. Imagine the 3 hour productivity break being a thing of the past because there are airplanes arriving and departing constantly.

Lastly, look at our costs associated with ATC delays. Many of the ATC problems are because we schedule for "normal" days. Between 8am and 9am we schedule 90 arrivals because the airport - on a good day - has an arrival rate of 90 airplanes an hour. What happens when we have to space out traffic because of reduced visibility and the arrival rate drops to 45? We now have to push some of that traffic into the next hour - thus causing ground delay programs and ground stops. Imagine if we could reduce those peaks and valleys. Steady out the flow of traffic in PHL. Now we reduce the likelyhood of ground stops and ground delay programs because the traffic flows more evenly. The same can be said for taxiing out. When you schedule a "banking" hub, you have all your departures leave in a 20-30 minute window. The first 5 airplanes off the gate get right to the end of the runway and airborn. But if you are number 90 off the gate, you have a lengthy delay for the runway. So the entire time you are off the gate you are burning fuel to sit in a conga line for the runway. You are also paying crews to sit in that line. If you are at the back of the line it could be 30 additional minutes before you are in the air. Now imagine the rolling hub. A plane leaves the gate every 5 minutes and average taxi out time is only 5-8 minutes. We save 23-25 minutes worth of fuel that we burn on taxi. We reduce block times for flights because we don't have to compensate for the lengthy taxi out.

Bottom line is we need to "grow" the airline again. It is my belief that the issue of overcapacity is bogus. WN eneters a market and because the product is priced right, they create demand. We can do the same, with the right cost structure and the right operation. Rolling the PHL hub makes sense because of the level of O & D traffic there. It wouldn't work as effectively in hubs like PIT and CLT. But I think you would also see additional flying in CLT and PIT also because you are utilizing the aircraft more efficiently.
 
Another thing......

If you have ever seen WN operations in their larger cities, like BWI, you will see that the rolling hub does create connecting opportunities just like a traditional banking hub. If you are offering service to destinations every 2-3 hours, you may increase connecting time to some destinations while decreasing time to others. Customers would also have the ability to connect thru CLT, PIT, DCA, LGA or BOS to most destinations. So if a PHL 3 hour connection is one alternative, I am sure there may be another opportunity to connect via another hub with a shorter connecting time.

We need to take advantage of the O&D market in PHL and exploit our strengths in the other hubs.
 
Hi PitBull,

You're right, for the rolling hub concept to work timing is everything. That being said, it can work - AMR has done it. Whether we have the management, planning, and scheduling tallent to do the same is another question.

Jim
 
What was old is new again.

USAir (and I'd bet Piedmont, too) used to do this. Our schedule was built to fly an outbound leg from PIT, with the inbound to PHL as the next leg with a short turn at the spoke point or to make up a point to point routing. Somewhere along the way, it all changed to the mess we have today.

While everyone claps about "working smarter", does that not imply that we are currently "working dumber"? Anyone who has been in aviation longer than one economic cycle already recognizes this. I guess that someone will be due a bonus for rediscovering asset utilization.

In another location, I saw a statement purported to be from Mr. Bronner about how my employee group works 20 +/- hours less per month than SW. For the moment, forget the basis for that tid-bit as it was not in his statement, what every pilot I know wants is to fly the regulation maximum everyday. Problem is, we do not create the schedule we only fly what is given.

So you will see us wandering the terminal during these silly breaks in the daily schedule.
 
I stand by my previous post that Chip's idea of a rolling Hub in PHL is nuts. He is suggesting that we cut gates by about 30%, and sell the excess gates. Their has to be a smarter way to accomplish this than more layoffs and give revenue away.

(I'm sure Southwest would welcome the opportunity to really ramp up service quicker than the current plan - because we allowed them to purchase our extra gates)

Look at BWI and how we ran instead of fighting back. We have to find somewhere to take SouthWest on. Why wait for them to take market share out of PHL? Start the fight now!

I challange our Management team to go on the attack! They should have known that PHL was in the bullseye. We do what we always do, we wait and come up with a plan based on what other airlines have done.

WHERE is the leadership when we need it?
 
michael707767 said:
...Further, strictly from an economic standpoint, a foreign owned airline will most likely just come in and cherry pick the good routes. Virgin US will not serve the many small markets in this county. A new foreign owned airline may lower fares in the big markets, but once the major airlines in this county have been driven out of business, there will be no service to smaller markets...
It's already happening right now. You see SW or JB going into any smaller markets? If US or UA went out of business today, small market cities would lose out just the same as if Virgin USA was the cause. I don't think this was what Congress was concerned about when they made this ruling.
 
Fatherknowsbest said:
I stand by my previous post that Chip's idea of a rolling Hub in PHL is nuts. He is suggesting that we cut gates by about 30%, and sell the excess gates. Their has to be a smarter way to accomplish this than more layoffs and give revenue away.
That is only one aspect that could come out of a rolling hub and one that I dont think would be wise at our crown jewel hub.
The other option and better plan would be MORE flights with the same amount of people and gate space. If we currently cram 60 flights into gates that take 60-90 minutes to rotate all the planes thru vs 40 flights twice in the same amount of time better using the gates and evening out the spike in traffic, we've actually added flights to the schedule with the same amount of space and increased productivity by crew and agents (no sitting around waiting for the next bank) and will use less fuel and time on taxi. Now multiply this times how many times in a day this could theoretically happen and the hub as a whole becomes more productive. Instead of having 1 gate used every 2 hours by 1 plane, if a plane came in, sat for 40 mins, and left, you could get 2 planes in with the same amount of time. This is one of the ways WN gets use out of their gates. Also it would improve the use of equipment/people at out stations too since flights could be added using the same people now that have big breaks waiting for the next inbound from a hub and when the plane gets into the out station, instead of it sitting for an hour and a half, it can be turned in 50 minutes and head right back into the hub to make more connections.
Just a couple of examples I found that might help show how PHL is inefficient as it currently operates vs a rolling hub.
Flt 201 TPA-PHL-SFO
Arrives from TPA at 819am Skd dept from PHL 935am 1 hour 16 min gate time

Flt 21 BDL-PHL-LAX
Arrives from BDL at 840am skd dept from PHL 950am 1 hour 10 min gate time

Flt 91 YYZ-PHL-SAN
Arrives from YYZ at 839am skd dept from PHL 1000am 1 hour 21 min gate time

This is a huge waste of time sitting on the ground in PHL first thing in the morning. Add this to how long the plane sits at the out station to come back into the hub in the evening and sits again, and you could get another flight easily out of the plane.
 
Seems to me that any sale of assets to a competing airline is BAD BUSINESS. What can they do with them that we can't? Maybe that's why the price of UAIR stock is diving again today. NO PLAN!
 
I believe PHL is the ideal hub for the rolling hub concept. This idea would transition the hub to a more Southwest type of operation in places like BWI and PHX, except during the transatlantic push.

PHL has enormous ATC problems, low productivity, and a huge challenge about to occur in May -- with Southwest's arrival.

Simply put US Airways' PHL costs must come down or over time the hub and company will bleed to death.

The fact is US Airways CASM is nearly 11 cents and Southwest's is about 7.6 cents. Southwest will under cut US Airways' fares even to the point of losing money and US Airways must maintain minimum unrestricted cash balances or the ATSB can repossess virtually every key company asset.

Dependent upon union agreements, I believe the more employee productivity improvements the more the company could expand flying/block hours to lower unit costs and increase revenue with the existing work force. Isn't that what good management should do?

When we view the sale of company fixed expense facilities such as gates and airport space, if we can grow and expand flying with less expense the company will increase RASM and lower CASM, which is a must for a legacy carrier in today's environment with the monumental fundamental shift in air travel.

Regards,

Chip

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MarkMyWords:

MarkMyWords said: "Bottom line is we need to "grow" the airline again. It is my belief that the issue of overcapacity is bogus. WN eneters a market and because the product is priced right, they create demand. We can do the same, with the right cost structure and the right operation. Rolling the PHL hub makes sense because of the level of O & D traffic there. It wouldn't work as effectively in hubs like PIT and CLT. But I think you would also see additional flying in CLT and PIT also because you are utilizing the aircraft more efficiently."

Chip comments: I agree.

Chip

:up:
 
Chip Munn said:
For example, US Airways is scheduled to take over some of United's Los Angeles gates and move from terminal one to terminal seven in January. Thus, could US Airways sell its Los Angeles terminal one gates to Virgin USA to lower unit costs and obtain additional capital?
Chip,

Sorry to say the terminal gates are going to Southwest. Southwest is also trying to get America West moved to terminal 3 in order to have use of the entire terminal.
 
When I supported the idea of a rolling hub I thought it would be with the same amount of employees and gates working more efficiently. Selling stuff to the competition and laying off even more (we have the highest percentage of our airline laid off) is a terrible plan. :angry:

How in the world is selling gates to a competitor a business plan or a good thing at all? Didnt US do this in California with Southwest? Plus, arent we just reducing congestion for Southwest while we continue to sit planes at gates for hours?

Rolling hub. Yeah, rolling right out of town like in BWI. The classic "USAir" non-competitive response!
 
WWtraveler99:

Chip asked: "For example, US Airways is scheduled to take over some of United's Los Angeles gates and move from terminal one to terminal seven in January. Thus, could US Airways sell its Los Angeles terminal one gates to Virgin USA to lower unit costs and obtain additional capital?"

WWtraveler99 answered: "Chip, sorry to say the terminal gates are going to Southwest. Southwest is also trying to get America West moved to terminal 3 in order to have use of the entire terminal."

Chip comments: WW, thanks for the information. I did not know what was going to occur with US Airways existing Los Angeles gates once the company takes over some of United's gates at the Southern California hub. I was just providing a thought-provoking question in response to yesterday's news media speculation in the L.A. and London Times that US Airways could announce a gate sale to Virgin USA this week.

Thanks.

Regards,

Chip

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Fatherknowsbest said:
I stand by my previous post that Chip's idea of a rolling Hub in PHL is nuts. He is suggesting that we cut gates by about 30%, and sell the excess gates. Their has to be a smarter way to accomplish this than more layoffs and give revenue away.

(I'm sure Southwest would welcome the opportunity to really ramp up service quicker than the current plan - because we allowed them to purchase our extra gates)

Look at BWI and how we ran instead of fighting back. We have to find somewhere to take SouthWest on. Why wait for them to take market share out of PHL? Start the fight now!

I challange our Management team to go on the attack! They should have known that PHL was in the bullseye. We do what we always do, we wait and come up with a plan based on what other airlines have done.

WHERE is the leadership when we need it?
While I for one dislike anyone losing their job, there may be infact some job losses involved with moving PHL to a rolling hub, but not in the 30% range you are discussing. Most effected would probably be customer service, then ramp, probably nothing in maintenance, and a possible increase in crew usage. PHL seems to be understaffed by everyone's accounts there, but the rolling hub would give you more flight options (increased aircraft utilization=increased flying), and make the employees more efficient. The understaffing issues would be helped, but this drives down CASM through better productivity, increased asset utilization, elimination of fixed overhead costs (gate leases), and less money spent due to delays (fuel, customer accomodations, etc).

I also disagree about your notion that this decreases revenue and drives people to the competition. Decreased CASM and increased choices moves this airline more in the direction of where WN, and could possibly generate more on the demand side of the business model.
 
I believe the rolling hub has great potential for US. Other than pax perhaps having longer connecting times at the hubs, are there any other significant pitfalls?

I think US would be remiss if they are not seriously exploring the use of rolling hubs.
 

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