USAirways: Hell-bent on creating history's worst airline

[signals]

and to think I didn't even write it... but this is exactly the type of microscope under which AA/US would have to go under... and why AA mgmt is highly unlikely to support it since they serve the creditors who will see all kinds of red flags in the deal.
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AA standalone is still first choice.. and if US forces a bidding process - which they very well may do since they have EVERYTHING to lose by allowing AA to successfully restructure and then be forced to compete against AA, DL, and UA on the east coast - then US will certainly lose - which is why US will keep trying because any hope of success is better than the certain failure that US faces.

You beat me, WT! See my above post!

 

[dash8roa]

and to think I didn't even write it... but this is exactly the type of microscope under which AA/US would have to go under... and why AA mgmt is highly unlikely to support it since they serve the creditors who will see all kinds of red flags in the deal.
.
AA standalone is still first choice.. and if US forces a bidding process - which they very well may do since they have EVERYTHING to lose by allowing AA to successfully restructure and then be forced to compete against AA, DL, and UA on the east coast - then US will certainly lose - which is why US will keep trying because any hope of success is better than the certain failure that US faces.

Two paragraphs and you said it all. Right on the money!

 

[signals]

Seems he could have written the exact same thing about DL/NW or CAL/UAL two airlines that have lost billions over the last 10 years attempt to merge. Not sure at all what his point is.

The point is that I've been saying what he wrote for years now. Others feel the same way. And why should they bring those other airlines up? USeless is the most vocal about a merger, and assumes it's a done deal. US should be under the microscope, since it is talking yet again about a merger.

This article is common knowledge to me and others, it isn't exactly micro-worthy.

 

[WorldTraveler]

The point is that I've been saying what he wrote for years now. Others feel the same way. And why should they bring those other airlines up? USeless is the most vocal about a merger, and assumes it's a done deal. US should be under the microscope, since it is talking yet again about a merger.

This article is common knowledge to me and others, it isn't exactly micro-worthy.

I suppose US feels if they keep the saying the same thing long and loud enough, the truth will somehow change.
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The rest of us know better... and note the AA people who are supporting it aren't doing it out of believe that US has a great plan - just that they are reacting to AA's deep cuts.
And the question remains whether all of this will make any difference if the 1113 process continues as it likely will.

 

[UPNAWAY]

World Traveler IYHO what is in US best interest, a merger or not?

 

[WorldTraveler]

World Traveler IYHO what is in US best interest, a merger or not?

I don't think anyone would object to a consensual merger between US and any party if that's what would give US the size to compete with other carriers.... but this whole AA/US proposal was based on either reductions in the cuts that would have put AA at a weakened position to compete long term - whether standalone or with US - and promises that anyone that understands the industry knows can't be made.
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AA could make a great partner for someone down the road - and if US runs a good company, AA might choose them.... but just like the other deals before, it was obvious US needed this deal more than the other party and was willing to reshape the deal to make it palatable against strong odds.
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US will best be a merger partner when it runs an airline producing revenues on par (not in absolute numbers but on a RASM basis) with other network carriers, US finishes its own merger (which means paying what it takes to bring the pilot groups together), and then pays all of its people levels comparable to other network carriers.
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The non-labor creditors' statement that they intend to support AMR mgmt with the 1113 process says they do not see value in an AA/US merger at this point. If they did, they would clearly support US.

 

[TWU informer]

I suppose US feels if they keep the saying the same thing long and loud enough, the truth will somehow change.
.
The rest of us know better... and note the AA people who are supporting it aren't doing it out of believe that US has a great plan - just that they are reacting to AA's deep cuts.
And the question remains whether all of this will make any difference if the 1113 process continues as it likely will.

I am not "reacting to the deep cuts", so to speak.

I am reacting to how may times we have given AA Management some form of a cut only to see that same management fail to take any advantage of the gift, and instead it gets pissed away and then they blame us or someone else.

My point isn't that cuts have to come or not.

It's that I have zero confidence in who we are about to give the cuts to.
I willing to try someone else that might lie now. I have already experienced this form of lie and deception enough times to know the outcome.

Can you honestly say that you believe that more cuts and the cornerstone strategy is the answer? When you know the other competing carriers will just return to court and get matching cost cuts?

The problem is not the Union and is not the Management, the problem is the law and the law makers which nobody is doing a damn thing about or even talking about it.

So what happens is more wedge put between AA Management and Unions.
In the end, maybe one does finally go out of business, in spite of the laws protecting those that are failing.

So be it.
I have no control and neither do you. So what good is the discussion to begin with? Nothing more than egoic minds pretending they have some influence.

You are obvioulsy paid by someone to manipulate the discussion on this forum. I am paid to do my job. Only I keep getting less and less, while folks like you those we give cuts to take more and more.

If you were us in the Unions, would you keep allowing the same action over and over while expecting different results? In other words, are'nt you just an extreme advocate of insanity?

 

[wings396]

You have enter entered the no spin zone......

 

[WorldTraveler]

I am not "reacting to the deep cuts", so to speak.

I am reacting to how may times we have given AA Management some form of a cut only to see that same management fail to take any advantage of the gift, and instead it gets pissed away and then they blame us or someone else.

My point isn't that cuts have to come or not.

It's that I have zero confidence in who we are about to give the cuts to.
I willing to try someone else that might lie now. I have already experienced this form of lie and deception enough times to know the outcome.

Can you honestly say that you believe that more cuts and the cornerstone strategy is the answer? When you know the other competing carriers will just return to court and get matching cost cuts?

The problem is not the Union and is not the Management, the problem is the law and the law makers which nobody is doing a damn thing about or even talking about it.

So what happens is more wedge put between AA Management and Unions.
In the end, maybe one does finally go out of business, in spite of the laws protecting those that are failing.

So be it.
I have no control and neither do you. So what good is the discussion to begin with? Nothing more than egoic minds pretending they have some influence.

You are obvioulsy paid by someone to manipulate the discussion on this forum. I am paid to do my job. Only I keep getting less and less, while folks like you those we give cuts to take more and more.

If you were us in the Unions, would you keep allowing the same action over and over while expecting different results? In other words, are'nt you just an extreme advocate of insanity?

Informer,
I do understand what you feel - and despite what some people say, I don't to have been an AA employee to get it.
.
I have never given AA mgmt a pass - in fact, most of the heat I have gotten on this and other forums has been from AA mgmt supporters who have not liked me continuing to point out why AA mgmt has failed/is failing.
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I completely agree that there needs to be very strong evidence that AA mgmt has changed and the cuts you are making again will not be in vain.
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But I also know that there is no easy fix to the problems that AA has right now.... AA waited for years to address the situation and Arpey - as much as he tried to do the right thing, only has made the job of turning the company around that much harder - and more costly.
My biggest concern is that I do not believe it is necessary for AA to spend as much as they are on fleet renewal - 250-300 new aircraft is more than enough to pay AA's fleet on par with other carriers -if not provide a clear advantage.
All of that debt and all of those new airplanes increase the cost to employees - including job cuts in MTC - and reduce the amount of money AA will have for employees.
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But let's also be clear that AA's failure to act in the previous round of mergers means they are not going to find a solution to operate on network parity with DL and UA. It remains to be seen if AA can compete with those 2 for valuable corporate customers but my biggest concern is that AA has given up so much in NYC - the heart of corporate travel - and the US merger does next to nothing to help with that. AA's network has historically been built around a strong presence in the top business markets - esp. NYC, CHI, and LAX.... how AA will fare with a distant #3 position in NYC will be very important to watch - but again, US would have done nothing to change that - or help them build their presence in the Pacific or continental Europe.
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AA might choose to merge down the road to help address those network deficiencies - but for now, AA needs to become a strong and viable competitor again. AA's most important task is to prepare itself to defend WN's growth at DAL after the Wright Amendment falls and in Latin America as Open Skies open up. AA has a full-time job defending its own network in the two years ahead.
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And as much as you and I hate to admit it, the creditors are the primary voices that will determine AA's future; ironically, AA labor will get a bigger share of the voice by taking bigger cuts now.
AA unions need to recognize the situation the company is in and work to be the competition - not beat up on each other or run to other parties to referee battles which AA mgmt and labor should be solving on their own.

 

[TWU informer]

WT,

Again the story and the problem and the desired solution is the same as in the past.
Over and Over, we have given, tried to understand, and were compassionate to save our future.

Thing is, it has never worked in the past and will not work this time either.
Your post read like a fiction novel full of false hope and make believe intelligence.

It is insanity to keep doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result.

Chances are more likely that we are doing nothing but hurting the other workers in the industry, as there is more bleeding to come from them after AA has there way with us. Someone has to go, and if not merge now, then it may as well be us.

By the way, is there Safe Sex Protection being worn by either party to this oregy?

 

[WorldTraveler]

Actually, the process does work differently this time.
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In the past, AA's unions and mgmt went head to head - and by your own calculations, AA mgmt has gotten the upper hand w/o the benefit of turning the company around.
The purpose of labor unions is to protect its people. The unions can only make the company run well if they have a choice in picking management.
I have never given AA mgmt a free pass (at least for the past 8 years) and completely agree they have squandered what was given to them.
AMR is now in BK which means that everyone to whom the company has made promises and cannot pay all get a piece of the new company - and that means labor gets a shot too.
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For too long, AA labor and mgmt have fought... and the company is in even more of a position to get what it wants.
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Labor controlled airlines don't have a very great track record in the airline industry - but I believe more than ever this is the time for AA labor to recognize where the company is, what it takes to rebuild it, and now that the cuts have been made - as likely as they will to occur - then AA labor needs to take a much more active role in running the airline - not just fighting mgmt.
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AA has an enormous depth of resources from which to draw to rebuild the company, including alot of AA people who are very passionate about their company and who want to win.
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As much as it hurts to hear it, the cuts have been made - or will happen.
The choice I WANT AA labor to take is to make the company work VERY WELL by working w/ a mgmt - and if it means throwing out people who cannot work w/ labor, then this is the time to do it - labor has a visible presence w/ the other creditors.
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But Horton is fixing what went wrong for almost ten years.... the 1113 process is effectively history... the focus must now be on rebuilding for success.
Usually the mgmt team that takes a company thru BK - including making cuts - is not the one that the creditors choose to run the company post BK... for the obvious reasons you cite of trust.
Labor needs to speak up about who they want to run the company - and then make that choice work.
I wish you ALL at AA the very best in achieving it.

 

[TWU informer]

ROFLMAO

 

[robbedagain]

well i dont know if youve seen www.justplanenews.com but apparently AA now wants 990 mil from all the unions

 

[Vortilon]

Actually, the process does work differently this time.
.
In the past, AA's unions and mgmt went head to head - and by your own calculations, AA mgmt has gotten the upper hand w/o the benefit of turning the company around.
The purpose of labor unions is to protect its people. The unions can only make the company run well if they have a choice in picking management.
I have never given AA mgmt a free pass (at least for the past 8 years) and completely agree they have squandered what was given to them.
AMR is now in BK which means that everyone to whom the company has made promises and cannot pay all get a piece of the new company - and that means labor gets a shot too.
.
For too long, AA labor and mgmt have fought... and the company is in even more of a position to get what it wants.
.
Labor controlled airlines don't have a very great track record in the airline industry - but I believe more than ever this is the time for AA labor to recognize where the company is, what it takes to rebuild it, and now that the cuts have been made - as likely as they will to occur - then AA labor needs to take a much more active role in running the airline - not just fighting mgmt.
.
AA has an enormous depth of resources from which to draw to rebuild the company, including alot of AA people who are very passionate about their company and who want to win.
.
As much as it hurts to hear it, the cuts have been made - or will happen.
The choice I WANT AA labor to take is to make the company work VERY WELL by working w/ a mgmt - and if it means throwing out people who cannot work w/ labor, then this is the time to do it - labor has a visible presence w/ the other creditors.
.
But Horton is fixing what went wrong for almost ten years.... the 1113 process is effectively history... the focus must now be on rebuilding for success.
Usually the mgmt team that takes a company thru BK - including making cuts - is not the one that the creditors choose to run the company post BK... for the obvious reasons you cite of trust.
Labor needs to speak up about who they want to run the company - and then make that choice work.
I wish you ALL at AA the very best in achieving it.

Well, you know what they say - you can wish in one hand, and crap in the other - see which one fills up first.

 

[FWAAA]

well i dont know if youve seen www.justplanenews.com but apparently AA now wants 990 mil from all the unions

I'm not certain, but I think the difference between the earlier $1.25 billion and the new $990 million demand now is the pension termination v freeze.

Here's an article from the Tulsa World: http://www.aviationpros.com/news/10704958/american-airlines-wants-unions-to-give-up-990-million