Usair Pilots Screw Over Fellow (junior) Pilots

[bigbusdrvr]

bigbusdrvr,

1) Yes, they would be new hires if they went anywhere else - they would be going to a different company, not working for the same company that furloughed them.

3) Captain pay will go up incrementally with longetivity at MDA (hence the erroneous press reports of a $58,000 cap). However, F/O's start at the top of the pay scale (5 year pay), hence there are no incremental longetivity raises for them.

Jim

Boeing,

Your point on issue #1 is a significant point, and one that was argued by the AFA MAA committee for our f/as.

OUR f/as are NOT probationary, nor are they NEW hires. Big difference and one that ALPA committee should have argued and settled with managment. Obviously, they did not.

For us, it was never mentioned that it was some kind of "soft landing" for furloughees. Mangement states they mentioned that, but not to OUR group.

I am disappointed in ALPA for not arguing that point much stronger, that their furloughed pilots ARE NOT NEW HIRES OR PROBATIONARY EMPLOYEES.

The pilots deserved much better. JUST MHO.

bigbusdriver,

What I personally understand, is that YOU are not one of them! That is perfectly, and crystal clear. With your attitude, why in the hell would anyone want to pay dues.

I would pay dues because I know witch side of the glass is up!! This is not an issue of glass half full or half empty for me!! Management holds all I repeat ALL the cards at this point!! If this company shuts down in the near future I have few choices as does any other pilot!!

1) Go to the desert and fly( adios family) Not a good option

2) Fly for an upstart ( not many have staying power, see response #1 after they shut down)

3) Go fly for JBLU, AIRTRAN, FRONTIER !!


Why would I go to them(if I could get hired) when I already have a seniority # at UAIR which will be gone if we can not compete with them??

 

[busdriver218]

Boeing 787, what should the MEC have done? Nothing is ever good enough, I believe it was the union that got J4J so these guys would have somewhere to fly. I don't like it anymore than you do but look back to past furloughs at U or other airlines, there were no J4J's. I would much rather fly for $58,000 than sell cars or anything else not related to aviation. You give me the impression that there were other options for the MEC, if there were I would like to know what they were.

 

[A320 Driver]

Well put sir!!!

 

[Furloughedagain]

BigBusDrvr,

You said, ... they can even elect to pass it up and stay on furlough and thereby take what ever other better job offers they get till mainline recall.

I thought that MidAtlantic was now "The Embraer Division of Mainline".

If that is the case, then isnt a recall to MDA actually a recall to US Airways? And, if so, isn't declining the recall to MDA declining the recall to mainline and forfeiting the right to recall?

I'm a little confused at how "The Embraer Division" is any different then Metrojet. It is a bid position within mainline -- not a seperate company. For all intents and purposes it IS mainline... so why (and how) could a furloughed pilot be permitted to bypass recall until they can hold a non-Embraer mainline airplane?

I'm confused.

 

[michael707767]

I'm a little confused at how "The Embraer Division" is any different then Metrojet. It is a bid position within mainline -- not a seperate company. For all intents and purposes it IS mainline... so why (and how) could a furloughed pilot be permitted to bypass recall until they can hold a non-Embraer mainline airplane?

whether or not its the Embraer division, or a straight recall to the mainline, most airline pilot contracts allow you to bypass recall for a set period of time. I have been told Delta still has pilots who have bypassed recall since 96.

 

[PITbull]

bigbusdrvr,

1) Yes, they would be new hires if they went anywhere else - they would be going to a different company, not working for the same company that furloughed them.

3) Captain pay will go up incrementally with longetivity at MDA (hence the erroneous press reports of a $58,000 cap). However, F/O's start at the top of the pay scale (5 year pay), hence there are no incremental longetivity raises for them.

Jim

Boeing,

Your point on issue #1 is a significant point, and one that was argued by the AFA MAA committee for our f/as.

OUR f/as are NOT probationary, nor are they NEW hires. Big difference and one that ALPA committee should have argued and settled with managment. Obviously, they did not.

For us, it was never mentioned that it was some kind of "soft landing" for furloughees. Mangement states they mentioned that, but not to OUR group.

I am disappointed in ALPA for not arguing that point much stronger, that their furloughed pilots ARE NOT NEW HIRES OR PROBATIONARY EMPLOYEES.

The pilots deserved much better. JUST MHO.

bigbusdriver,

What I personally understand, is that YOU are not one of them! That is perfectly, and crystal clear. With your attitude, why in the hell would anyone want to pay dues.

I would pay dues because I know witch side of the glass is up!! This is not an issue of glass half full or half empty for me!! Management holds all I repeat ALL the cards at this point!! If this company shuts down in the near future I have few choices as does any other pilot!!

1) Go to the desert and fly( adios family) Not a good option

2) Fly for an upstart ( not many have staying power, see response #1 after they shut down)

3) Go fly for JBLU, AIRTRAN, FRONTIER !!


Why would I go to them(if I could get hired) when I already have a seniority # at UAIR which will be gone if we can not compete with them??

Bigbusdriver,

That is why the "bar" will continue to be lowered. Hold all the cards? Management? Don't think so this time. Maybe in your arena, poor soul, BUT NOT IN MINE.

 

[Furloughedagain]

I just see this as becoming a big bookkeeping mess.

Lets not forget that in addition to the furloughees being recalled to mainline or midatlantic, there are those who are at J4J carriers.

On top of all THAT there is the agreement (as a part of LOA81 I believe) that says that the wholly-owned pilots will be permitted to flow-through to MidAtlantic and then to Mainline after the furloughees are recalled.

Who is keeping track of all of this stuff and how will it work with pilots who are bypassing MDA, bypassing mainline, "resigned" and are awaiting mainline, plus the wholly owneds who do not have a publically available combined senority list for the purposes of the flowthrough?

Seeing as how US Airways screws up the simple stuff, I have serious doubts about their ability to manage a recall to a phantom airline and a complex 4-way flowthrough.

 

[Furloughedagain]

Also, just for info.

The pilots contract states:

23(I)1: The pilot shall have the right to decline recall from furlough for flight assignment of an unexpected temporary nature of less than 90 days without loss of seniority. A pilot declining recall from furlough shall not have the right to displace any pilot who has accepted such temporary recall from furlough.

23(I)4: If a furloughed pilot is offered the opportunity to return to duty as a pilot for a minimum of 90 days and elects not to return, if no junior pilots remain on furlough, his recall rights shall terminate forthwith and his seniority shall be forfeited.

23(I)2 basically allows a pilot to bypass recall as long as there are furloughed pilots junior to him.

So it sounds to me like once all of the 1800+ furloughed pilots are recalled, no further bypasses will be permitted.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Furloughedagain,

" I have serious doubts about their ability to manage a recall to a phantom airline and a complex 4-way flowthrough"

Sssshh, don't let the secret out. The more complex it is, the less likely it is that they will be caught when they mess it up.

Jim

 

[bigbusdrvr]

bigbusdrvr,

1) Yes, they would be new hires if they went anywhere else - they would be going to a different company, not working for the same company that furloughed them.

3) Captain pay will go up incrementally with longetivity at MDA (hence the erroneous press reports of a $58,000 cap). However, F/O's start at the top of the pay scale (5 year pay), hence there are no incremental longetivity raises for them.

Jim

Boeing,

Your point on issue #1 is a significant point, and one that was argued by the AFA MAA committee for our f/as.

OUR f/as are NOT probationary, nor are they NEW hires. Big difference and one that ALPA committee should have argued and settled with managment. Obviously, they did not.

For us, it was never mentioned that it was some kind of "soft landing" for furloughees. Mangement states they mentioned that, but not to OUR group.

I am disappointed in ALPA for not arguing that point much stronger, that their furloughed pilots ARE NOT NEW HIRES OR PROBATIONARY EMPLOYEES.

The pilots deserved much better. JUST MHO.

bigbusdriver,

What I personally understand, is that YOU are not one of them! That is perfectly, and crystal clear. With your attitude, why in the hell would anyone want to pay dues.

I would pay dues because I know witch side of the glass is up!! This is not an issue of glass half full or half empty for me!! Management holds all I repeat ALL the cards at this point!! If this company shuts down in the near future I have few choices as does any other pilot!!

1) Go to the desert and fly( adios family) Not a good option

2) Fly for an upstart ( not many have staying power, see response #1 after they shut down)

3) Go fly for JBLU, AIRTRAN, FRONTIER !!


Why would I go to them(if I could get hired) when I already have a seniority # at UAIR which will be gone if we can not compete with them??

Bigbusdriver,

That is why the "bar" will continue to be lowered. Hold all the cards? Management? Don't think so this time. Maybe in your arena, poor soul, BUT NOT IN MINE.

Pitbull,

I am glad you have conviction, courage, and obviously a large bank account!
Personally I don't have a sugar daddy, I have a family to feed (an old but valid cliche). I'll take my pride in taking care of my family, not holding the bar up for other airlines (ie. Delta) families. Speaking of lowering the bar, isn't that what everybody said we did the last two times, right before everyone except delta followed to save their own buts!!

You have your stand, be proud of it, I'll see you in the unemployment line, It will buy Delta another 3months, then they will lower the bar or be extinct as well.

 

[A320 Driver]

That is why the "bar" will continue to be lowered. Hold all the cards? Management? Don't think so this time. Maybe in your arena, poor soul, BUT NOT IN MINE.

But, then there is that pesky ole "me too" clause AFA used to be so proud of. Company will probably exploit that to it's fullest extent.

A320 Driver B)

 

[PITbull]

That is why the "bar" will continue to be lowered. Hold all the cards? Management? Don't think so this time. Maybe in your arena, poor soul, BUT NOT IN MINE.

But, then there is that pesky ole "me too" clause AFA used to be so proud of. Company will probably exploit that to it's fullest extent.

A320 Driver B)

A320,
And they'll end up applying the "me too" to f/a just as soon as ALPA bends over again...in their permanent position.

 

[A320 Driver]

Pitbull,

These numbers floating around the boards are staggering. My question is, does "appears viable" sound compelling to you? It didn't to me. I can't see how another round of concessions will fix our problems long term. If they won't, then what is the point? We lower our costs, then the competion lowers theirs and trumps us. What then was the point? If the goal is mearly to survive, then mearly survive is all we can do. Does "revise" mean "re-invent" when it comes to the business plan? I don't think so.
So that brings us to the question, will ALPA give in? Probably, but only to a point. Even the members of ALPA have a breaking point, a "line in the sand" at which point the majority of the membership will say "what's the use". History being our indicator, what did the last two rounds of concessions do for us long term?

Did they fix the operational problems at PHL? NO

Did they get rid of the overlap in our organization (multiple training facilities etc.)?
NO

Did they get us out of the "high rent "district in Crystal City and into a more modest facility? NO

Did they change the relationship between management and labor? YES... for the worse!

Did it make us any better off in the long run? NO

Did it change the way we compete? NO

So, what exactly did the last two rounds of concessions do except extend our existance for a while longer? NOTHING

Want to bet what round three will accomplish? We are stuck in the same old paradigm that we've been in for a decade. The attitudes haven't changed. Our methods haven't changed. Our operation hasn't changed and we suffer under the same inept group of leaders that we always have. Then why does ALPA do it? Why do they give in? Because, like this management, they don't know what else to do...period. Everyone is grasping at straws wondering, "will this be the majic that turns us around"?

The bottom line is, management only wants our participation to the extent that we give up pay and benefits. They are not interested in what we have to say or what we think. I watched first hand as suggestion after suggestion was brushed of by our leaders and we were told not to think, just move the metal. As long as you believe yourself to be better than those you lead, the more you will FAIL. Words like humility, sincerity, honesty and integrity are wasted here. If not, Dave would be on his knees in front of this employee group begging our forgiveness for the way we've been treated over the last 1 1/2 years. For ALPA's stepping up to the plate in the last two rounds + the loss of our retirement, we got 250 greivances...violations of our contract, a sick policy that forces people to work sick, constant headaches dealing with our operations at the hubs, and management's successful effort to divide us form the other employee groups.

Pitbull, I respect you...who you are and what you do. Do those who lead you respect you? Do they care how many people this is hurting, how many personal bankruptcies this will cause, divorces and worse. Am I the only one who noticed that just 60 days ago all management wanted was "productivity"? Look where we are now since we decided to listen to the plan. Quickly the demands change with a perceived change of heart by labor. Now their talking W2, benefits, productivity and anything else they think they can get. Does that "appear viable" to you? Or is it more business as usual.

I'm more than a little frustrated this morning. Here we stand splintered and divided...AGAIN. One group pitted against the other. And over what? Over how deep you'll have to dig to meet the demands that will come all too soon. I make more because I'm a pilot so I'll be expected to give more. Fair enough. But until you and I are equal, equal in pay, benefits and working conditions, in the back of your mind you'll feel like I got away with something. But, thats how it's done isn't it? Divide the labor so they can't think reasonably, then exploit the weaknesses.

Bend over pemanantly you say? Pitbull, I'm so bent over I can't see the sun anymore.

A320 Driver :unsure:

 

[PITbull]

A320,

That is the greatest post you have written to date! Bravo!

I didn't think you had it in you.

Didn't mean to offend you. You've been on these boards for a long time, and often times I don't know where you stand.

I agree with 100% of what you said. I have taken the position for a long time on these boards "what about our folks who are going into BK, divorcing, etc." I've written it until I'm blue. I have taken those thoughts to the streets. That is why I am very apprehensive about giving anything to this mangement for any reason. Its just too much.

With regard to the plan that was presented. It is "viable". Will it make us major profits, doubt it. Why? Cause everyone is doing it now. We are once again, behind the 8 -ball. We waited too long. At this point, we would all have to work for min. wage.

I once wrote out to senior management late in August of 2002, that just wait till other airlines see what U has done to the unions. They will all do the same thing with the same threats. And then what? We will all have to compete as "low cost carriers" with eachother, instead of "high cost carriers". All these concessions accomplish is devistating a group of workers finacially and emotionally. I told Siegel himself, that do not relish in all of what you think you may have accomplished, your "stardom" will be short lived as all the other carriers will be doing and implementing the exact same plan. His response, he doesn't think other carriers would hurt their stock holders if they didn't have to....yea, right. Three months later, United pranced right into BK. Delta couldn't wait to burn through their cash, and American was threatening BK and their unions caved. Everyone is "busted", ecxept for all the senior execs of the industry.

So, here we sit 18 months later, pandora's box is opened, and we are no better off than we were 2 years ago. All the carriers "Legacy" and LCC are all competiting at rock bottom prices. When does it end? Meanwhile the workers somehow have to take a stand. We can not subsidize the tickets or the product in order to have the lowest costs. I pray that someone in Congress sees this and interveens. Congress needs to take the ATSB off the table. That was the catalyst in destroying our airline, our workers, furloughs, and the Industry.

Go back and retrieve some of what I wrote on these boards way back in Jan of 2003 when I first came on these boards. I have been relentless, because I know what this is all about. And just recently, many of the posters that supported these concessions and this management 1 year ago, have now caught up with the rest of us that saw this coming.

I speak of the plan in only this context....its a plan. They could have implenented 80% of it yesterday. With regard to wages and benefits...NOT HAPPENING. I suggest the rest hang tough. We are not beholden to secure a handsome return on a "risky investment" to a primary stakeholder.The MEC will meet with Bronner next week. Don't have a clue what they hope to accomplish in that arena, but I can tell you this much, the PIT President will give this man an "ear sore", specifically with the treatment of our employees, and him using his big mouth in public and aggravating the situation on wall street and our Junk bond rating.His arrogance disqusts me.

 

[PITbull]

A320 Driver,

I see you added something to your post. I want to respond by saying that it will never be even. Our pilots were devistated. Pension termination, wages, work rules, furloughs. No. No group can say pilots didn't give enough. Ever.

I just hope with your new MEC that takes their seats on March 1 will never give this mangement "carte blanche" again. Most groups follow your lead. Please step carefully in the future.