US enhances stand-by policy but keeps the $100 fee -- is management out of control?
- Thread starter KCFlyer
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[blockquote]
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On 12/18/2002 8:49:49 PM planeedge wrote:
From the US website -- just posted
US AIRWAYS ENHANCES NONREFUNDABLE STANDBY FARE POLICY
ARLINGTON, Va., Dec. 18, 2002 – US Airways announced today that it has enhanced its standby policy for customers traveling on nonrefundable fares. Effective immediately, customers holding confirmed reservations and tickets may obtain a confirmed seat on alternate flights earlier or later on the same day of travel, per the rules of the fare purchased, for a nonrefundable $100 fee.
Customers can now confirm seat assignments on flights with the same origin and destination as flights in their original itineraries. New itineraries cannot be confirmed more than four hours prior to departure of the new flight, and confirmation must be completed at the airport. In the event the desired alternate flight is sold out and no confirmed seat is available, customers will still be able to stand-by for last minute seats, per the fare rule, subject to the nonrefundable $100 fee.
Reporters needing additional information should contact US Airways Corporate Communications at (703) 872-5100.
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[/blockquote]
Nothing more than re-arranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic.
----------------
On 12/18/2002 8:49:49 PM planeedge wrote:
From the US website -- just posted
US AIRWAYS ENHANCES NONREFUNDABLE STANDBY FARE POLICY
ARLINGTON, Va., Dec. 18, 2002 – US Airways announced today that it has enhanced its standby policy for customers traveling on nonrefundable fares. Effective immediately, customers holding confirmed reservations and tickets may obtain a confirmed seat on alternate flights earlier or later on the same day of travel, per the rules of the fare purchased, for a nonrefundable $100 fee.
Customers can now confirm seat assignments on flights with the same origin and destination as flights in their original itineraries. New itineraries cannot be confirmed more than four hours prior to departure of the new flight, and confirmation must be completed at the airport. In the event the desired alternate flight is sold out and no confirmed seat is available, customers will still be able to stand-by for last minute seats, per the fare rule, subject to the nonrefundable $100 fee.
Reporters needing additional information should contact US Airways Corporate Communications at (703) 872-5100.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Nothing more than re-arranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic.
ClueByFour
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[blockquote]
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On 12/19/2002 7
37 PM Biffeman wrote:
Clue, Lorenzo brought EA down not the IAM, get your facts straight.
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[/blockquote]
Not that I'm a fan, but Lorenzo only had his chance because Charlie Bryan drove Borman out. You see, for most of us here in the real world, the idea of basing one's pay on the profits of our company is not novel. Or, letting technology and process advances move a company along, instead of say, standing behind a jet powering-back because you really _need_ three IAM types to dispatch a jet. And so the IAM got Lorenzo. And all the fun that came with him.
But the craft was protected, eh?
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On 12/19/2002 7
37 PM Biffeman wrote: Clue, Lorenzo brought EA down not the IAM, get your facts straight.
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[/blockquote]
Not that I'm a fan, but Lorenzo only had his chance because Charlie Bryan drove Borman out. You see, for most of us here in the real world, the idea of basing one's pay on the profits of our company is not novel. Or, letting technology and process advances move a company along, instead of say, standing behind a jet powering-back because you really _need_ three IAM types to dispatch a jet. And so the IAM got Lorenzo. And all the fun that came with him.
But the craft was protected, eh?
Read above, Lorenzo was drive by profits, read and comprehend[BR][BR]IAM, Ramp and Mechanics, ALPA- Pilots, AFA- Flight attendants and the TWU, gee, I guess all the unionized workers were on the picket line, boy I guess it was the IAM's fault and not how Lorenzo treated them, NOT![BR][BR]Gee, I guess the judge that threw him out at EA and put Shrugrue in charge and the DOT and DOJ ruled Lorenzo unfit to run an airline in 1993 and banned him from the industry had nothing to do with it.
[blockquote]
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On 12/19/2002 737 PM Biffeman wrote:
Clue, Lorenzo brought EA down not the IAM, get your facts straight.
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[/blockquote]
BIFF,the iam and alpa killed eastern..Lorenzo wanted concessions..who was on the picket line?
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On 12/19/2002 7
37 PM Biffeman wrote: Clue, Lorenzo brought EA down not the IAM, get your facts straight.
----------------
[/blockquote]
BIFF,the iam and alpa killed eastern..Lorenzo wanted concessions..who was on the picket line?
ClueByFour
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Okay. Let me try to focus the issue once again (I don't have the benefit of a true IAM education in the art of propoganda, grandstanding, or shifting the issue):
Charlie Bryant drove costs up at Eastern by doing things like rejecting the VEP and trying to keep the airline from doing power-backs by physically standing behind aircraft. With a deteriorating competitive advantage and now, thanks to Bryant, the inability to get efficient work rules, the Eastern BOD lost faith in Borman, and sold the airline to Lorenzo.
American pushes back all over the place. Airtran does it. I'm sure there are others. Is it unsafe? Nope. Is R&D featherbedding? You betcha. And that (along with some of Braynt's other antics) brought Lorenzo to Eastern.
It's often said that a company who treats it's employees poorly enough that they unionize often deserves it. In Eastern's (and particularly the IAM at Eastern) case, it could be said that the union in question deserved Lorenzo.
For the record, I think Frank Lorenzo and Charlie Bryant are/were both terrorists, each in his own way. However, I'm not brainwashed by a particular organization, which makes it easier to see a more balanced picture, and not simply repeat the talking points.
I'm not entirely convinced that some of those same clowns are not running around going "shut 'er down" in PIT, CLT, etc. I also laugh knowing that the job they might get fixing my Acura will probably pay half as much and not have flight benefits. I cry knowing that 25-30k other dedicated employees might lose their jobs due to the foolishness of a few.
To return to the original point: it must be the greedy pax. Dirty bastards not paying high enough fares, and all. Do I have this right? (ask an AFA member about the line "We know you have a choice in air travel" and then consider its significance)
That's the kind of attitude that will kill U. Fortunately, it's also _not_ the one put forth by a vast majority of the frontline employees whom I've had the priviledge of dealing with.
Cheers.
Charlie Bryant drove costs up at Eastern by doing things like rejecting the VEP and trying to keep the airline from doing power-backs by physically standing behind aircraft. With a deteriorating competitive advantage and now, thanks to Bryant, the inability to get efficient work rules, the Eastern BOD lost faith in Borman, and sold the airline to Lorenzo.
American pushes back all over the place. Airtran does it. I'm sure there are others. Is it unsafe? Nope. Is R&D featherbedding? You betcha. And that (along with some of Braynt's other antics) brought Lorenzo to Eastern.
It's often said that a company who treats it's employees poorly enough that they unionize often deserves it. In Eastern's (and particularly the IAM at Eastern) case, it could be said that the union in question deserved Lorenzo.
For the record, I think Frank Lorenzo and Charlie Bryant are/were both terrorists, each in his own way. However, I'm not brainwashed by a particular organization, which makes it easier to see a more balanced picture, and not simply repeat the talking points.
I'm not entirely convinced that some of those same clowns are not running around going "shut 'er down" in PIT, CLT, etc. I also laugh knowing that the job they might get fixing my Acura will probably pay half as much and not have flight benefits. I cry knowing that 25-30k other dedicated employees might lose their jobs due to the foolishness of a few.
To return to the original point: it must be the greedy pax. Dirty bastards not paying high enough fares, and all. Do I have this right? (ask an AFA member about the line "We know you have a choice in air travel" and then consider its significance)
That's the kind of attitude that will kill U. Fortunately, it's also _not_ the one put forth by a vast majority of the frontline employees whom I've had the priviledge of dealing with.
Cheers.
Tells you alot about a company when everyone goes out on strike against them, guess the IAM told ALPA, TWU and the AFA to strike also?[BR]
[P style="LINE-HEIGHT: 15pt"][FONT face=Arial size=2][SPAN style="mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"]During the 1970’ and 1980’s it was a very difficult time for the airlines. With the passing of the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 airline carries were provided with new freedoms to expand their route systems and the flexibility to develop innovative pricing structures. This flexibility allowed the carrier to further grow into new markets. However, deregulation brought about airfare wars. Airlines were competing to remain competitive in the market, waged airfare wars against their rivals. Many air carriers were having great difficulty in keeping their doors open.[/SPAN][/FONT] [/P]
[P style="LINE-HEIGHT: 15pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-line-height-rule: exactly"] [FONT face=Arial size=2] [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00"]Eastern Airlines was not exempt from having to contend with price wars as well as being a participant. This placed many air carriers in a vulnerable state to unwanted hostile takeovers and mergers. Eastern fighting to keep its doors open, sold majority share holdings to Frank Lorenzo, owner of Texas Airlines.[/FONT][/FONT][/P]
[H4 align=center][FONT face="Trebuchet MS, Arial, MS Sans Serif" size=2]Frank Lorenzo[/FONT][/H4][BR]
[P align=left][FONT face="Trebuchet MS, Arial, MS Sans Serif" size=2]Francisco (Frank) A. Lorenzo was one of the most notorious players in the history of commercial aviation in the United States. Born in 1940, he was the son of Spanish immigrants in Queens in New York. He went to Columbia University and then received a business degree from Harvard Business School in 1963. He had an early interest in aviation that led him to take control of Texas International Airlines (TIA), a company that was on the verge of bankruptcy, in 1971. The Deregulation Act of 1978 allowed Lorenzo to expand his business dealings and he systematically began to acquire companies such as Continental Airlines, New York Air, Frontier Airlines, and Eastern Airlines, in his bid to compete with the new non-unionized airlines. By the mid-1980s, he had acquired a reputation for vicious business practices that were particularly unfair to the labor force. By filing for bankruptcy at different points in his career, he was able to bypass unionized labor and impose harsh working conditions on the employees of his various corporations. His rise to the top was finally thwarted when Eastern Airlines collapsed in 1991 and a U.S. bankruptcy court ruled that Lorenzo was unfit to run the company. Lorenzo left the debacle with a vast personal fortune and tried to found a new airline called Friendship in 1993, but the U.S. Department of Transportation did not grant him permission.[BR][BR][BR][BR][BR][BR][BR]
[P style="LINE-HEIGHT: 15pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-line-height-rule: exactly"][FONT face=Arial size=2][SPAN style="mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"]Lorenzo, filed for restructuring of Eastern Airlines under the bankruptcy laws. Lorenzo in his desire to have greater control over the airline industry brought in non union workers and created a new air fare war that many airlines could not compete against a non union airline. Eastern further offered upscale service such as its first class seats to coach prices this further eroded the airline industry, carrier after carrier had filed for bankruptcy. Lorenzo was now placed into a position that he could pick and choose which airline he would take over. Lorenzo on a hunt took over several airlines such People Express, Continental, New York Air, etc[/SPAN][/FONT][BR][BR][BR]
[P align=center][?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = V /][V:SHAPETYPE id=_x0000_t75 coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o😛referrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"][V:STROKE joinstyle="miter"][/V:STROKE][V:FORMULAS][V:F eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"][/V:F][V:F eqn="sum @0 1 0"][/V:F][V:F eqn="sum 0 0 @1"][/V:F][V:F eqn="prod @2 1 2"][/V:F][V:F eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"][/V:F][V:F eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"][/V:F][V:F eqn="sum @0 0 1"][/V:F][V:F eqn="prod @6 1 2"][/V:F][V:F eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"][/V:F][V:F eqn="sum @8 21600 0"][/V:F][V:F eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"][/V:F][V:F eqn="sum @10 21600 0"][/V:F][/V:FORMULAS][V😛ATH o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"][/V😛ATH][?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /][O:LOCK v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"][/O:LOCK][/V:SHAPETYPE][V:SHAPE id=_x0000_s1027 style="MARGIN-TOP: 213.75pt; Z-INDEX: 1; MARGIN-LEFT: 118.5pt; WIDTH: 143.75pt; POSITION: absolute; HEIGHT: 189pt" type="#_x0000_t75"][V:IMAGEDATA src="file:///C:WINDOWSTEMPmsohtml11clip_image001.png" o:title="Բ"][/V:IMAGEDATA][?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = W /][W:WRAP type="square"][/W:WRAP][/V:SHAPE][V:SHAPETYPE id=_x0000_t75 coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o😛referrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"][V:STROKE joinstyle="miter"][/V:STROKE][V:FORMULAS][V:F eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"][/V:F][V:F eqn="sum @0 1 0"][/V:F][V:F eqn="sum 0 0 @1"][/V:F][V:F eqn="prod @2 1 2"][/V:F][V:F eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"][/V:F][V:F eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"][/V:F][V:F eqn="sum @0 0 1"][/V:F][V:F eqn="prod @6 1 2"][/V:F][V:F eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"][/V:F][V:F eqn="sum @8 21600 0"][/V:F][V:F eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"][/V:F][V:F eqn="sum @10 21600 0"][/V:F][/V:FORMULAS][V😛ATH o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"][/V😛ATH][O:LOCK v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"][/O:LOCK][/V:SHAPETYPE][V:SHAPE id=_x0000_s1027 style="MARGIN-TOP: 177.75pt; Z-INDEX: 1; MARGIN-LEFT: 397.5pt; WIDTH: 111.6pt; POSITION: absolute; HEIGHT: 126pt" type="#_x0000_t75"][V:IMAGEDATA src="file:///C:WINDOWSTEMPmsohtml11clip_image001.jpg" o:title="inno_lorenzo_205"][/V:IMAGEDATA][W:WRAP type="square"][/W:WRAP][/V:SHAPE][IMG height=168 hspace=12 src="http://www.evair.com/images/lorenzo.jpg" width=149 align=left v:shapes="_x0000_s1027"][BR]
[P style="LINE-HEIGHT: 15pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; tab-stops: 10.2pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none; mso-line-height-rule: exactly"][FONT face=Arial size=2] Frank Lorenzo was not satisfied. Driven by profits, Lorenzo requested machinists of Eastern Airlines to take a pay cut. However, the machinist union refused to do so. This brought about a war between labor and management. The machinist union IAM (International Association of Machinist and Aerospace Workers) called for a strike. The strike brought about air passenger delay and the company began loosing millions in daily revenues.[O😛] [/O😛][/FONT][BR]
[P style="LINE-HEIGHT: 15pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; tab-stops: 10.2pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none; mso-line-height-rule: exactly"][FONT face=Arial size=2] The United States Bankruptcy Court intervened after a creditor brought suit against Eastern Airlines. The court very much aware of Lorenzo’s labor practice, appointed Martin Shugrue as temporary trustee over Eastern.[O😛] [/O😛][/FONT][BR]
[P style="LINE-HEIGHT: 15pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; tab-stops: 10.2pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none; mso-line-height-rule: exactly"][FONT face=Arial size=2] Eastern was unable to overcome its fiscal downfall and as a result was forced to close its doors on [?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /][ST1😀ATE Year="1991" Day="18" Month="1"]January 18, 1991[/ST1😀ATE] . Many had accused Lorenzo of selling off assets and transferring Eastern’s aircraft to Texas Air. Other accusations included depleting Eastern’s pension fund. Many felt Lorenzo was only interested in purchasing defunct air carriers in order to strip the carriers of its assets. This was a major blow to Lorenzo’s credibility in the business community.[/FONT][O😛] [/O😛][/FONT][/P]
[P style="LINE-HEIGHT: 15pt"][FONT face=Arial size=2][SPAN style="mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"]During the 1970’ and 1980’s it was a very difficult time for the airlines. With the passing of the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 airline carries were provided with new freedoms to expand their route systems and the flexibility to develop innovative pricing structures. This flexibility allowed the carrier to further grow into new markets. However, deregulation brought about airfare wars. Airlines were competing to remain competitive in the market, waged airfare wars against their rivals. Many air carriers were having great difficulty in keeping their doors open.[/SPAN][/FONT] [/P]
[P style="LINE-HEIGHT: 15pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-line-height-rule: exactly"] [FONT face=Arial size=2] [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00"]Eastern Airlines was not exempt from having to contend with price wars as well as being a participant. This placed many air carriers in a vulnerable state to unwanted hostile takeovers and mergers. Eastern fighting to keep its doors open, sold majority share holdings to Frank Lorenzo, owner of Texas Airlines.[/FONT][/FONT][/P]
[H4 align=center][FONT face="Trebuchet MS, Arial, MS Sans Serif" size=2]Frank Lorenzo[/FONT][/H4][BR]
[P align=left][FONT face="Trebuchet MS, Arial, MS Sans Serif" size=2]Francisco (Frank) A. Lorenzo was one of the most notorious players in the history of commercial aviation in the United States. Born in 1940, he was the son of Spanish immigrants in Queens in New York. He went to Columbia University and then received a business degree from Harvard Business School in 1963. He had an early interest in aviation that led him to take control of Texas International Airlines (TIA), a company that was on the verge of bankruptcy, in 1971. The Deregulation Act of 1978 allowed Lorenzo to expand his business dealings and he systematically began to acquire companies such as Continental Airlines, New York Air, Frontier Airlines, and Eastern Airlines, in his bid to compete with the new non-unionized airlines. By the mid-1980s, he had acquired a reputation for vicious business practices that were particularly unfair to the labor force. By filing for bankruptcy at different points in his career, he was able to bypass unionized labor and impose harsh working conditions on the employees of his various corporations. His rise to the top was finally thwarted when Eastern Airlines collapsed in 1991 and a U.S. bankruptcy court ruled that Lorenzo was unfit to run the company. Lorenzo left the debacle with a vast personal fortune and tried to found a new airline called Friendship in 1993, but the U.S. Department of Transportation did not grant him permission.[BR][BR][BR][BR][BR][BR][BR]
[P style="LINE-HEIGHT: 15pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-line-height-rule: exactly"][FONT face=Arial size=2][SPAN style="mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"]Lorenzo, filed for restructuring of Eastern Airlines under the bankruptcy laws. Lorenzo in his desire to have greater control over the airline industry brought in non union workers and created a new air fare war that many airlines could not compete against a non union airline. Eastern further offered upscale service such as its first class seats to coach prices this further eroded the airline industry, carrier after carrier had filed for bankruptcy. Lorenzo was now placed into a position that he could pick and choose which airline he would take over. Lorenzo on a hunt took over several airlines such People Express, Continental, New York Air, etc[/SPAN][/FONT][BR][BR][BR]
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[P style="LINE-HEIGHT: 15pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; tab-stops: 10.2pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none; mso-line-height-rule: exactly"][FONT face=Arial size=2] Frank Lorenzo was not satisfied. Driven by profits, Lorenzo requested machinists of Eastern Airlines to take a pay cut. However, the machinist union refused to do so. This brought about a war between labor and management. The machinist union IAM (International Association of Machinist and Aerospace Workers) called for a strike. The strike brought about air passenger delay and the company began loosing millions in daily revenues.[O😛] [/O😛][/FONT][BR]
[P style="LINE-HEIGHT: 15pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; tab-stops: 10.2pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none; mso-line-height-rule: exactly"][FONT face=Arial size=2] The United States Bankruptcy Court intervened after a creditor brought suit against Eastern Airlines. The court very much aware of Lorenzo’s labor practice, appointed Martin Shugrue as temporary trustee over Eastern.[O😛] [/O😛][/FONT][BR]
[P style="LINE-HEIGHT: 15pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; tab-stops: 10.2pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none; mso-line-height-rule: exactly"][FONT face=Arial size=2] Eastern was unable to overcome its fiscal downfall and as a result was forced to close its doors on [?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /][ST1😀ATE Year="1991" Day="18" Month="1"]January 18, 1991[/ST1😀ATE] . Many had accused Lorenzo of selling off assets and transferring Eastern’s aircraft to Texas Air. Other accusations included depleting Eastern’s pension fund. Many felt Lorenzo was only interested in purchasing defunct air carriers in order to strip the carriers of its assets. This was a major blow to Lorenzo’s credibility in the business community.[/FONT][O😛] [/O😛][/FONT][/P]
Dea Certe
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Biffeman,
Where do you shop? Unless you are foolish with your money, you'll shop where you get the best value for your dollars. I know I do.
Most of our pax are not selfish or stupid. Did you go to the Ben Baldanza School of Charm? People are going to use their travel dollars as wisely as possible. Our most frequent flyers are business folks who can't always control when they get to the airport. If a meeting ends a little early and they have a shot at getting home a few hours earlier and there's an open seat, why not let them have it on a stand by basis? The plane is leaving with an open seat anyway. And the amount of good will generated by that little bit of empathy goes a long way in keeping that pax flying on our airline, spending his travel dollars to keep our airline in business and your pay check coming.
I understand you're being furloughed after 14 years. That's a crying shame but it's not the passengers fault our airline has been mismanaged for years. The whole economy sucks right now. The entire airline industry is struggling to survive. I want to see US Airways come out as a survivor and not just another footnote in aviation history. We have a chance, albeit a slim one, to rebuild and once again become a thriving enterprise. Nickel and diming our best customers is not the way to success. Rationalizing the fares and treating our customers with respect and dignity would be a good start.
Where do you shop? Unless you are foolish with your money, you'll shop where you get the best value for your dollars. I know I do.
Most of our pax are not selfish or stupid. Did you go to the Ben Baldanza School of Charm? People are going to use their travel dollars as wisely as possible. Our most frequent flyers are business folks who can't always control when they get to the airport. If a meeting ends a little early and they have a shot at getting home a few hours earlier and there's an open seat, why not let them have it on a stand by basis? The plane is leaving with an open seat anyway. And the amount of good will generated by that little bit of empathy goes a long way in keeping that pax flying on our airline, spending his travel dollars to keep our airline in business and your pay check coming.
I understand you're being furloughed after 14 years. That's a crying shame but it's not the passengers fault our airline has been mismanaged for years. The whole economy sucks right now. The entire airline industry is struggling to survive. I want to see US Airways come out as a survivor and not just another footnote in aviation history. We have a chance, albeit a slim one, to rebuild and once again become a thriving enterprise. Nickel and diming our best customers is not the way to success. Rationalizing the fares and treating our customers with respect and dignity would be a good start.
KCFlyer
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- 11,373
- Reaction score
- 1,431
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/20/2002 3:56:32 AM Biffeman wrote:
[P]PineyBob, if you don't like U's policy or fares, fly on someone else, it is plain and simple, I guess you and Ben are perched atop together.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]There's your problem - people are. [/P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/20/2002 3:56:32 AM Biffeman wrote:
[P]PineyBob, if you don't like U's policy or fares, fly on someone else, it is plain and simple, I guess you and Ben are perched atop together.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]There's your problem - people are. [/P]
