I didnt want to get into this, but I cant help myself. 320 please explain to me how a 37 seat DAsh 8 destroyed ML but all the 50 seat jets did not? What aircraft do you think brings the people to the hubs to fill your A320? For crying out loud You cant possibly believe this! Besides given the choice I think you would much rather work at a WO until your called back instead of MESA. But I guess the ML pilots would rather contract all U flying to outside sources instead. Good plan its worked really well so far.
US Airways Will Not Take Delivery of CRJ-705 Aircraft; Mesa Airlines to Operate CRJ-700 as US Airway
- Thread starter LavMan
- Start date
A320 Driver
Veteran
- Aug 24, 2002
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A320 Driver
GIVE IT BACK!!!!!
GIVE IT BACK!!!!!
So, I guess a320driver, what your saying is you don''t mind turning the jobs over to mesa or the unemployment line, but there is no way one of your w/o''s will ever get any of the flying. I guess maybe the flow through that the wo''s wanted for years would have been a good idea. Of thats right it''s beneath a major pilot to fly for a regional, even if it means standing in line at the unemployment line. Maybe that bus isn''t far off
is it smarter to keep flying a large a/c into a station that can''t fill the seats? If alpa is actually blind to that then somebody really needs to take of the blinders and join the race with their eyes open. If thats how the airline should be run then I guess it might as well just shutdown entirely. At some point alpa needs to put their personal feelings aside and step back and start seeing the big picture.
It''s not just the pilot group. for years baggage handlers have been paid as skilled workers. When in fact it''s a non skilled position. There are licensed mechanics at the regionals that have for years made less than half as much an hour, and they are working on a/c. These mechanics aren''t even considered skilled professionals. Even a truck driver is considered a professional.
Yea it''s tragic when people loose their jobs. But thats part of life. Aviation isn''t the only industry thats having problems. But yet you don''t hear everyone else trying to screw as many people as they can. Of course this is aviation and that appears to be the norm. It''s the most cut throat industry there is. My example is even when the planes were full every company was still cutting fares. Most companies would raise prices until the passenger demand leveled off. Not aviation all they seem to want to do is cut each others throats. And the employess don''t seem to be much different.
It''s not just the pilot group. for years baggage handlers have been paid as skilled workers. When in fact it''s a non skilled position. There are licensed mechanics at the regionals that have for years made less than half as much an hour, and they are working on a/c. These mechanics aren''t even considered skilled professionals. Even a truck driver is considered a professional.
Yea it''s tragic when people loose their jobs. But thats part of life. Aviation isn''t the only industry thats having problems. But yet you don''t hear everyone else trying to screw as many people as they can. Of course this is aviation and that appears to be the norm. It''s the most cut throat industry there is. My example is even when the planes were full every company was still cutting fares. Most companies would raise prices until the passenger demand leveled off. Not aviation all they seem to want to do is cut each others throats. And the employess don''t seem to be much different.
A320 Driver
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- Aug 24, 2002
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No, what I'm saying now that I've calmed down is that there was a transfer of flying...LYH,CHO,FAY,TRI, on and on. I flew 737s into these stations, now they are Express. Compare A/C if you like...I'm talking block hours of flying on the mainline jets. It started going away a decade ago and never stopped. Now, since we seem destined to have the SJs, they should be at the W/Os. The company said no, not us. They did not want to spend the money on them in the beginning. They could buy Airbuses or RJs, but not both. Today we have a different situation. The SJs are caught up in a test of wills between ALPA and management. We are suffering through contract abuse every day and it has to stop. The abuse stops or the cooperation stops...It's up to CCY.
It is NOT, I repeat NOT the mainline guys trying to keep the SJs away from the W/Os...just the opposite (IMHO).
You guys need to muzzle that loose cannon a few posts up. It's a free country, but what goes around comes around in aviation.
Every employee whether it be mainline or W/O has a story to tell of hardship and heartache with regard to his/her career at U. We have enough problems without being called "idiots" by fellow pilots.
A320 Driver
I'm deleting my other posts. Not wise to post in anger.
It is NOT, I repeat NOT the mainline guys trying to keep the SJs away from the W/Os...just the opposite (IMHO).
You guys need to muzzle that loose cannon a few posts up. It's a free country, but what goes around comes around in aviation.
Every employee whether it be mainline or W/O has a story to tell of hardship and heartache with regard to his/her career at U. We have enough problems without being called "idiots" by fellow pilots.
A320 Driver
I'm deleting my other posts. Not wise to post in anger.
A320 Driver
Veteran
- Aug 24, 2002
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----------------
On 7/15/2003 12:59:18 AM bassin wrote:
is it smarter to keep flying a large a/c into a station that can't fill the seats?
A320 Driver says:
We did fill seats and made money doing it.
AM bassin wrote:
At some point alpa needs to put their personal feelings aside and step back and start seeing the big picture.
A320 Driver says:
It is personal when it affects your livelyhood and family.
AM bassin wrote:
It's not just the pilot group. for years baggage handlers have been paid as skilled workers. When in fact it's a non skilled position.
A320 Driver says:
So what's your solution, fire them and hire cheap labor...pretty cold blooded if you ask me.
AM bassin wrote:
There are licensed mechanics at the regionals that have for years made less than half as much an hour, and they are working on a/c. These mechanics aren't even considered skilled professionals. Even a truck driver is considered a professional.
A320 Driver says:
So how is this our problem? Commuters/Regionals ALWAYS pay less than majors.
AM bassin wrote:
Yea it's tragic when people loose their jobs. But thats part of life.
A320 Driver says:
Look them in the eyes and the eyes of their families and tell them that.
AM bassin wrote:
Aviation isn't the only industry thats having problems. But yet you don't hear everyone else trying to screw as many people as they can. Of course this is aviation and that appears to be the norm. It's the most cut throat industry there is. My example is even when the planes were full every company was still cutting fares. Most companies would raise prices until the passenger demand leveled off. Not aviation all they seem to want to do is cut each others throats. And the employess don't seem to be much different.
A320 Driver says:
Interesting perspective but what it REALLY boils down to is YOU wanting to move up the ladder at my expense.
A320 Driver
On 7/15/2003 12:59:18 AM bassin wrote:
is it smarter to keep flying a large a/c into a station that can't fill the seats?
A320 Driver says:
We did fill seats and made money doing it.
AM bassin wrote:
At some point alpa needs to put their personal feelings aside and step back and start seeing the big picture.
A320 Driver says:
It is personal when it affects your livelyhood and family.
AM bassin wrote:
It's not just the pilot group. for years baggage handlers have been paid as skilled workers. When in fact it's a non skilled position.
A320 Driver says:
So what's your solution, fire them and hire cheap labor...pretty cold blooded if you ask me.
AM bassin wrote:
There are licensed mechanics at the regionals that have for years made less than half as much an hour, and they are working on a/c. These mechanics aren't even considered skilled professionals. Even a truck driver is considered a professional.
A320 Driver says:
So how is this our problem? Commuters/Regionals ALWAYS pay less than majors.
AM bassin wrote:
Yea it's tragic when people loose their jobs. But thats part of life.
A320 Driver says:
Look them in the eyes and the eyes of their families and tell them that.
AM bassin wrote:
Aviation isn't the only industry thats having problems. But yet you don't hear everyone else trying to screw as many people as they can. Of course this is aviation and that appears to be the norm. It's the most cut throat industry there is. My example is even when the planes were full every company was still cutting fares. Most companies would raise prices until the passenger demand leveled off. Not aviation all they seem to want to do is cut each others throats. And the employess don't seem to be much different.
A320 Driver says:
Interesting perspective but what it REALLY boils down to is YOU wanting to move up the ladder at my expense.
A320 Driver
What it really boils down to is that if all US Airways flying is not done solely by US Airways seniority list pilots, then as a last resort it should be done by US Airways Group Pilots.
This keeps all revenue, growth and control within the Group and thereby maintains Group ALPA pilots strength when dealing with Group management.
The Mainline ALPA Unit had the leverage to do this, but chose instead to perpetuate the outsourcing to contract Lift Providers. The more given away, the weaker everyone in the US Airways Group becomes. To claim that Mainline ALPA simply couldn''t stand up to the company in this matter of outsourcing is purely a ruse to deflect attention away from their own shortsighted and self-serving but self-defeating approach.
How does it serve the interests of anyone working for US Airways to make MESA Airlines(US Airways is not their only client) an even bigger operator of 70+ Seat Aircraft than MidAtlantic will be.
It may be too late, but it still could be turned around. ALL US Airways Flying must ultimately be done in-house. One seniority list, Mainline at the top, then MDA(no new-hires!) if it happens, and the combined seniority of ALG, PDT and PSA at the bottom. If US Airways so much as flys a remote control airplane, it must be done by a pilot from that list.
To proceed on the current path of unconscionable outsourcing and building of other Airlines will surely destroy what is left of Mainline. The next Chapter 11 will not be so pretty and labor friendly as the first.
This keeps all revenue, growth and control within the Group and thereby maintains Group ALPA pilots strength when dealing with Group management.
The Mainline ALPA Unit had the leverage to do this, but chose instead to perpetuate the outsourcing to contract Lift Providers. The more given away, the weaker everyone in the US Airways Group becomes. To claim that Mainline ALPA simply couldn''t stand up to the company in this matter of outsourcing is purely a ruse to deflect attention away from their own shortsighted and self-serving but self-defeating approach.
How does it serve the interests of anyone working for US Airways to make MESA Airlines(US Airways is not their only client) an even bigger operator of 70+ Seat Aircraft than MidAtlantic will be.
It may be too late, but it still could be turned around. ALL US Airways Flying must ultimately be done in-house. One seniority list, Mainline at the top, then MDA(no new-hires!) if it happens, and the combined seniority of ALG, PDT and PSA at the bottom. If US Airways so much as flys a remote control airplane, it must be done by a pilot from that list.
To proceed on the current path of unconscionable outsourcing and building of other Airlines will surely destroy what is left of Mainline. The next Chapter 11 will not be so pretty and labor friendly as the first.
ONTHESTREET
Advanced
- Aug 20, 2002
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To all the W/O pilots out there, a question for you?
Did you spend all that time and money training and working for peanuts for a max of a 60k a year job?
A 70 to 90 seat RJ is NOT and RJ, it is the same as a DC-9 or a 737-200. The DC-9-30 in original configuration held 95 the 200 about the same.
Skywest NOW has in their contract a provision to fly up to 156 seats for RJ WAGES! That my freinds is a 757-200!!!!
If this continues when you finally do move up to a 757 you will not be receiving a raise.
This is not about trying to punish the W/O''s or anybody else. It is about trying to preserve the career of airline pilot as a good career. The pay scale on 50 seat RJ''s is already bad enough, where does it end? I hate to break it to all you 20 something RJ drivers 60,000 is piss poor pay for a profession that requires 10 or more years to learn and work up to, not to mention the continuous training and medical factors.
Why do you think that the company is not putting the 70 and 90 seater on mainline? Because they know that the younger regional guys will whore themselves out and fly the aircraft for far less than the job and profession is worth.
Don''t worry though, I am sure that you will get the rj''s and the next contract that you try to raise your pay, the company will just outsource your airplanes to the next lowest bidder.
ALPA is just trying to get the company to stick to the agreed upon contract. And contrary to popular belief the mainline pilots are not the reason that the W/O''s do not have jets yet. You are! Why? Because you refuse to fly them as cheaply as MESA will. Just like we refuse to fly them as cheaply as the W/O''s will.
The only true solution is ALL Usair group pilots on one list and ANY aircraft with USAirways painted in anyform on the side, flown by USAirways pilots only. Dump Mesa and all the rest of the payscale killers. Let them fend for themselves in the marketplace.
When you are young that shiny jet sure looks nice, as you age you will find that although it can kill you at a faster speed, it is still just an airplane. And in a few years when you realize that you are flying 767''s for 75,000 a year max payscale you will be able to trace it right back to now.
I still can''t beleive that pilots are stupid enough to let a company pay them 18.00 an hour for right seat in a 600 Mph airplane......you most likly spent 50 to 60 an hour learning to fly a 100 mph 2 seat beer can!!! Jeez that is more than most of you are flying the rj''s for in the left seat!!!! He%# I make twice that flying a corporate turboprop! So at least you do not have to worry about me taking one of the jet for Jobs positions, I refuse to whore myself out for such garbage wages. $35 an hour is a decent wage for a 37 seat turboprop NOT for a jet.
Anyhow just a few thought from an Ex Wholly Owned, Furloughed Mainline, currently Corporate pilot.
And no, I will not respond to that idiot Propjok so don''t even bother. He is a waste of skin.
Have a Nice Day
Did you spend all that time and money training and working for peanuts for a max of a 60k a year job?
A 70 to 90 seat RJ is NOT and RJ, it is the same as a DC-9 or a 737-200. The DC-9-30 in original configuration held 95 the 200 about the same.
Skywest NOW has in their contract a provision to fly up to 156 seats for RJ WAGES! That my freinds is a 757-200!!!!
If this continues when you finally do move up to a 757 you will not be receiving a raise.
This is not about trying to punish the W/O''s or anybody else. It is about trying to preserve the career of airline pilot as a good career. The pay scale on 50 seat RJ''s is already bad enough, where does it end? I hate to break it to all you 20 something RJ drivers 60,000 is piss poor pay for a profession that requires 10 or more years to learn and work up to, not to mention the continuous training and medical factors.
Why do you think that the company is not putting the 70 and 90 seater on mainline? Because they know that the younger regional guys will whore themselves out and fly the aircraft for far less than the job and profession is worth.
Don''t worry though, I am sure that you will get the rj''s and the next contract that you try to raise your pay, the company will just outsource your airplanes to the next lowest bidder.
ALPA is just trying to get the company to stick to the agreed upon contract. And contrary to popular belief the mainline pilots are not the reason that the W/O''s do not have jets yet. You are! Why? Because you refuse to fly them as cheaply as MESA will. Just like we refuse to fly them as cheaply as the W/O''s will.
The only true solution is ALL Usair group pilots on one list and ANY aircraft with USAirways painted in anyform on the side, flown by USAirways pilots only. Dump Mesa and all the rest of the payscale killers. Let them fend for themselves in the marketplace.
When you are young that shiny jet sure looks nice, as you age you will find that although it can kill you at a faster speed, it is still just an airplane. And in a few years when you realize that you are flying 767''s for 75,000 a year max payscale you will be able to trace it right back to now.
I still can''t beleive that pilots are stupid enough to let a company pay them 18.00 an hour for right seat in a 600 Mph airplane......you most likly spent 50 to 60 an hour learning to fly a 100 mph 2 seat beer can!!! Jeez that is more than most of you are flying the rj''s for in the left seat!!!! He%# I make twice that flying a corporate turboprop! So at least you do not have to worry about me taking one of the jet for Jobs positions, I refuse to whore myself out for such garbage wages. $35 an hour is a decent wage for a 37 seat turboprop NOT for a jet.
Anyhow just a few thought from an Ex Wholly Owned, Furloughed Mainline, currently Corporate pilot.
And no, I will not respond to that idiot Propjok so don''t even bother. He is a waste of skin.
Have a Nice Day
A320 Driver
Veteran
- Aug 24, 2002
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Your point is well taken, however consider this: the company comes to the MEC with all this data to make a case for the need for the RJs. They show that we can't survive long term unless we move in that direction. The MECs financial people agree, but the company does not have the cash OR financing available to purchase the RJs for the mainline OR the W/Os. The ONLY alternative at the time is to enter into an agreement for feed from someone who has or can get the airplanes.
So what was the MEC supposed to do and where exactly did they go wrong. BTW, the MECs financial people told them when the company was 18 months away from bankruptsy...they missed it by ONE MONTH.
So they had 3 options:
1. Fly the RJs on the mainline like we did the F-28
2. Let the W/Os fly them.
3. Farm it out to a third party.
The company wouldn't go for #1 because it was too expensive to support the aircraft on the mainline.
The company did not have access to the money to buy the A/C for the W/Os so #2 is out.
We were stuck with option #3.
Now, all this being said, how do you get that the mainline MEC has it in for the W/O pilots?????
It's all about money or the lack there of guys.
A320 Driver
So what was the MEC supposed to do and where exactly did they go wrong. BTW, the MECs financial people told them when the company was 18 months away from bankruptsy...they missed it by ONE MONTH.
So they had 3 options:
1. Fly the RJs on the mainline like we did the F-28
2. Let the W/Os fly them.
3. Farm it out to a third party.
The company wouldn't go for #1 because it was too expensive to support the aircraft on the mainline.
The company did not have access to the money to buy the A/C for the W/Os so #2 is out.
We were stuck with option #3.
Now, all this being said, how do you get that the mainline MEC has it in for the W/O pilots?????
It's all about money or the lack there of guys.
A320 Driver
Furloughed again writes:"
Is it any surprise to anyone that ALPA would have yet-again delayed negotiations and further damaged the careers of the furloughed pilots?
It doesn''t surprise me at all. It''s par for the course.
You''ve heard ALPA''s new motto haven''t you?
"I''ve got mine. Screw You." "
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Furloughed again:
Your comments are right on the mark. That has always been ALPAs motto at USAir/USAirways. Screw you I''ve got mine. Sadly, its most prevelant at AAA. But now you see human nature. It was exactly that way during my AAA furlough, giving away duty rigs and jobs, not aggressively persuing grievances on behalf of furloughed pilots, ect. I even remember pilots telling me, "you want to have a strong company to come back to". Strong or not, I wanted a job.
I am truely saddened to say that this, what I thought was just an AAA ALPA phonomenum, is universal. We at UAL have given away just about everything, including presently working pilots in the name of ''helping'' us out of BK. I believe its a junior versus senior thing!
The whole labor roll back just sickens me. My sick time usage is going up. I''m not picking up open time. I value what little time I have with my family. My answer is enough is enough. I am not willing to give another dime to any company. And the sentiment here is that if you go after our retirement, we will shut UAL down. Paul Whiteford has made that quite clear.
DENVER, CO
Is it any surprise to anyone that ALPA would have yet-again delayed negotiations and further damaged the careers of the furloughed pilots?
It doesn''t surprise me at all. It''s par for the course.
You''ve heard ALPA''s new motto haven''t you?
"I''ve got mine. Screw You." "
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Furloughed again:
Your comments are right on the mark. That has always been ALPAs motto at USAir/USAirways. Screw you I''ve got mine. Sadly, its most prevelant at AAA. But now you see human nature. It was exactly that way during my AAA furlough, giving away duty rigs and jobs, not aggressively persuing grievances on behalf of furloughed pilots, ect. I even remember pilots telling me, "you want to have a strong company to come back to". Strong or not, I wanted a job.
I am truely saddened to say that this, what I thought was just an AAA ALPA phonomenum, is universal. We at UAL have given away just about everything, including presently working pilots in the name of ''helping'' us out of BK. I believe its a junior versus senior thing!
The whole labor roll back just sickens me. My sick time usage is going up. I''m not picking up open time. I value what little time I have with my family. My answer is enough is enough. I am not willing to give another dime to any company. And the sentiment here is that if you go after our retirement, we will shut UAL down. Paul Whiteford has made that quite clear.
DENVER, CO
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
UAL767FO:
UAL767FO said: "And the sentiment here is that if you go after our retirement, we will shut UAL down. Paul Whiteford has made that quite clear."
Chip comments: UAL767FO, this is an interesting statement. Yesterday the Washington Post reported in a column titled "The Pension Time Bomb", that United Airlines (estimated unfunded liabilities: about $7.5 billion) could be next to have (their retirement) plan terminated. Then today in a separate article titled "Airlines Seek Break On Pensions" the Post said Treasury officials said that they oppose legislation, including the Camp bill, that singles out specific industries for special treatment. The PBGC is alarmed, too.
Considering the ATSB said it was "seriously concerned" with United's underfunded pensions, albeit this comment was made before the union concessions, it appears your airline may have a problem. Moreover, with this week's news the company's underfunded pension obligation is really $7.5 billion versus $6.3 billion, the issue could be greater than we know.
In my opinion, the United employees, at least the pilots, will be faced with the same decision as US Airways ALPA. Keep the company in operation with a DC Plan or liquidate, especially since the company appears to require the loan guarantee to survive.
Best regards,
Chip
UAL767FO said: "And the sentiment here is that if you go after our retirement, we will shut UAL down. Paul Whiteford has made that quite clear."
Chip comments: UAL767FO, this is an interesting statement. Yesterday the Washington Post reported in a column titled "The Pension Time Bomb", that United Airlines (estimated unfunded liabilities: about $7.5 billion) could be next to have (their retirement) plan terminated. Then today in a separate article titled "Airlines Seek Break On Pensions" the Post said Treasury officials said that they oppose legislation, including the Camp bill, that singles out specific industries for special treatment. The PBGC is alarmed, too.
Considering the ATSB said it was "seriously concerned" with United's underfunded pensions, albeit this comment was made before the union concessions, it appears your airline may have a problem. Moreover, with this week's news the company's underfunded pension obligation is really $7.5 billion versus $6.3 billion, the issue could be greater than we know.
In my opinion, the United employees, at least the pilots, will be faced with the same decision as US Airways ALPA. Keep the company in operation with a DC Plan or liquidate, especially since the company appears to require the loan guarantee to survive.
Best regards,
Chip
A320 Driver & others:
Could I just add my .02 to those who continue to claim that U never had the financial resources to pay for additional RJs.
Who do you think is paying for the RJs at the contract carriers? Whether U pays by monthly lease payments or pays by monthly checks to cover the fee for departure agreements it is U who is paying.
Now I will be the first to admit that I don''t know what the arrangements are for the payments to the contract carriers providing RJ service as USAirways Express carriers. But unless these companies are providing a charity service for U I think it is safe to say that the payments they receive cover their aircraft acquisition cost, their operating cost, their overhead, and still provide a profit for their companies.
I have been saying it for years that U is the one paying for any and all RJs operating under the U banner. So can we just stop trying to make the argument that U cannot afford any RJs?
Could I just add my .02 to those who continue to claim that U never had the financial resources to pay for additional RJs.
Who do you think is paying for the RJs at the contract carriers? Whether U pays by monthly lease payments or pays by monthly checks to cover the fee for departure agreements it is U who is paying.
Now I will be the first to admit that I don''t know what the arrangements are for the payments to the contract carriers providing RJ service as USAirways Express carriers. But unless these companies are providing a charity service for U I think it is safe to say that the payments they receive cover their aircraft acquisition cost, their operating cost, their overhead, and still provide a profit for their companies.
I have been saying it for years that U is the one paying for any and all RJs operating under the U banner. So can we just stop trying to make the argument that U cannot afford any RJs?
OldpropGuy
Advanced
- Aug 20, 2002
- 185
- 8
US Airways is paying for ther RJ''s one way or the other. The only difference is who gets to keep the profit! If the company is paying someone else to fly them, and they are making money, then that is money the company could have made!! Mybe it''s just me.........
A320 Driver
Veteran
- Aug 24, 2002
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----------------
On 7/17/2003 6:06:03 AM NCflyer wrote:
A320 Driver & others:
Now I will be the first to admit that I don''t know what the arrangements are for the payments to the contract carriers providing RJ service as USAirways Express carriers.
A320 Driver says:
Exactly...YOU DON''T KNOW! Just let me say this. I can pay cab fare all day and nobody cares what my finances look like, but just let me try to lease or buy a car...big difference.
On 7/17/2003 6:06:03 AM NCflyer wrote:
A320 Driver & others:
Now I will be the first to admit that I don''t know what the arrangements are for the payments to the contract carriers providing RJ service as USAirways Express carriers.
A320 Driver says:
Exactly...YOU DON''T KNOW! Just let me say this. I can pay cab fare all day and nobody cares what my finances look like, but just let me try to lease or buy a car...big difference.
