US Airways Pilots Say Strike an Option

i am new to usaviation, but have been on flyertalk for some time. despite (or perhaps because of) repeated warnings and admonitions on flyertalk about this site, i decided to take a look. i was especially curious to read what was being said here after having read the washington post article about a strike threat.

chip (et al), i am a doctor, not a pilot. i follow the airline industry closer than most "industry analysts" probably do, and i have a particular interest in usairways. while i certainly agree with you that the money paid to your company's former execs (especially in the context of the company's financial situation at that time) smacks of arrogance and outrageous fiscal irresponsibility, i must say that i cannot understand how alpa/mec believe a strike could possibly help things for the employees they represent.

"crazy enough" (to quote you, chip) is exactly what you would have to be to strike. it would almost certainly cost you your livelihood; in this economy, it is certainly not reasonable to expect to just turn around and be hired elsewhere (especially in the airline industry). on top of your lost salary, you would also lose whatever pension (or fraction thereof) you would have upon retiring.

even if y'all are "crazy enough" to "burn this whole thing down", a strike may not have said desired effect anyhow. usairways will likely be able to higher pilots who have been furloughed elsewhere. union or not, people need to sustain their standard of living, and i can't recall the last time i heard of a union cutting paychecks to the employees they represent.

i, for one, don't buy into the "you've got a high paying job, so shut up and like it" arugment. i have a high paying job, too, and i sympathize with my colleagues in pennsylvania, west virginia, new jersey, and elsewhere who have finally reacted to a marketplace (malpractice insurance -- both the companies themselves, and the lawyers who both write the malpractice laws and profit from them) that has exploited us for far too long. but in their situation, there is something to be won besides the satisfaction of watching the enemy "burn down". there does not appear to me to be an upside to you and yours by striking (or threatening to strike) soon.

what seems most reasonable (and most likely to benefit you longterm) is to allow the company to reorganize, emerge from bankruptcy, stabilize financially, and then renegotiate the terms of your contracts/pensions, in the context of having generously granted concessions to the company when they were hurting. if they are unwilling to talk at that point, then screw them -- strike. at least at that point, the economy is likely to be in better shape (god willing), and a strike won't be such a direct shot in your own foot.

just some food for though. i'll be over here, donning my flame-resistant chain mail, awaiting your responses.
 
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On 2/25/2003 12:39:33 PM Tim Nelson wrote:

Just to set the record straight. I believe I saw in a news article where ALPA said that US AIRWAYS was unsuccessful in getting concessions from other employee groups regarding pension or retirement givebacks.
Well, for the record, US AIRWAYS and the IAM agreed to institute the IAM pension program on fleet service effective January 5th, 2003. The ceasing of future company 401k contributions together with the commencement of the IAM pension fund was a concession of close to $50 million dollars for fleet service.

Tim Nelson
IAM LC1487
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I don't think that ALPA is trying to accuse any other group of anything. All that they are trying to point out is that the company felt pensions important enough for other groups to accept a smaller percentage of the last concession demand to preserve them for other groups, yet go straight to court with no negotiation in order to "pocket" ALPA's pension. ALPA fully understands the importance of pensions and doesn't want anybody not to have one, especially one that they've worked long and hard for.
 
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On 2/25/2003 1:16:12 PM chipmunn wrote:



I have enormous confidence in the ALPA MEC who is controlled by very pragmatic, reasonable, and capable men. They will make the correct decision and I will support them regardless of what they decide.
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Tell that to the guys on the street, or at CCair, or anybody who gets bumped out of a job due to J4J. Old guys who would eat their young for breakfast with a Bloody Mary to maintain the status quo for the top 20% of the seniority list.

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What's unique about this negotiation, for the first time in my 19-year career, is I do not believe the company realizes that the majority of the pilot group is "crazy enough", especially after yesterday, to burn this place down to the ground.

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Pardon the sarcasm, but this statement speaks volumes about the anger management and logical thinking abilities about the guys in the pointy ends of the aircraft.......
 
Reacting out of intense anger by "burning the place down" is just what happens in conditions of rage. If you study rage closely you find the eye focus of the person in a rage is extremely narrow limited to that which threatens. The thinking process consists of thoughts of revenge and death or mutiliation to whomever is felt to be responsible for the pain underneath the rage. There is no rational thinking whatsoever because the rage as a emotional state precludes it. Rage prohibits any empathy for fellow man and that is why some on these boards just do not give a darn for their co-workers. In order for better quality thinking to return, a "time out" is necessary. Incendiary postings will stroke the rage further precluding any kind of return to normalcy. If you study rage, you see that acting out rage always results in negative consequences.
 
Frankly a lot of mechanics feel they have been ripped off too. I feel if the pilots want to close the doors it would be foolish for them, but anymore with me as a mechanic just making a few stones more than some of the unskilled help I can honestly say it would not all be bad news if the doors closed. It stinks being the lowest paid in the industry. Some of the unskilled positions still here today are paid better than their counterparts in the airline industry. The mechanics are the best deal on the property so we know how it feels to be screwed.

--No wonder no one really cares anymore.

--Sorry, but I still feel the pilot pension was way toooooooo much and needed to be whacked. You guys were raping this place.
 
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On 2/25/2003 3:53:36 PM Upsgnr wrote:

I'm sure that when the comet or asteroid or whatever it was struck the earth however many millions of years ago that some of the predatory dinosaurs just couldn't get it through their heads that the plant-eating dinosaurs they had survived on were gone and weren't coming back. They kept searching for them and then lay down never to get up.

The survivors grew fur or feathers to survive in the new climate.

Adapt, or disappear
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Vanishing Dinosaurs

Scientists have shown that the moon is moving away at a tiny, although measurable distance from the earth every year.

If you do the math, you can calculate that 85 million years ago the moon was orbiting the earth at a distance of about 35 feet from the earth's surface.

This would explain the death of the dinosaurs. The tallest ones, anyway.

 
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On 2/25/2003 5:23:03 PM pitguy wrote:

STRIKE.......Hahaha.......

There will not be a strike. Pilots can play as tough as they want, but the cold reality is there are few jobs out there and they will not give up a six figure job when all the chips fall.

"""Live to fight another day."""

You guys are funny. The junior pilots will fly. They are not going to follow the old guys out the door. Gee maybe you wise guys are so smart you will all end up with no pension.........and no job.


---Do not be stupid. This is like trying to rob a broke man. Hahaha......There is no way to win. It is impossible. Unless you call losing your job (and your pension) a win.


When you peal off a 'scab' all you see is puss.
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If only half the pilots were to strike (and I KNOW the numbers would be MUCH higher) this airline wouldn't be able to turn a wheel. I don't think it will come to this, however. There are MANY more creative ways to make a point. Of course, that's only going to be an issue if the company can make their argument stick, and it doesn't sound like it's working. We'll see....
 
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On 2/25/2003 4:35:36 PM OverpaidSlacker wrote:

oops..."hire", not "higher".

that's embarrassing. i was typing quickly. sorry.
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Welcome on this Board, and you know there is "edit" that you can click on to fix your writings. Directly beside "reply".

I use it continually.
 
Hey Wil,

Do you think you could emphsize to management the importance in returning that $35 Mils to this near "liquidated, no fuel hedged, no credit acceptance kind of corporation. I think many of us could return to some normalcy AND PUT AWAY OUR OUT OF CONTROL RAGE!

And while your in there, could you convey to this company that we employees who lost our stock in BK, that we are not able to endure another 5% paycut on account that we are getting sicker by the minute and right there is another $200 penalty for using a sick call.
 
Pitguy,
Please....ditch the descriptions regarding scabs! Not everyone has a strong stomach.
 
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On 2/25/2003 4:34:36 PM OverpaidSlacker wrote:

"i am new to usaviation, but have been on flyertalk for some time. despite (or perhaps because of) repeated warnings and admonitions on flyertalk about this site, i decided to take a look. i was especially curious to read what was being said here after having read the washington post article about a strike threat.

chip (et al), i am a doctor, not a pilot. i follow the airline industry closer than most "industry analysts" probably do, and i have a particular interest in usairways. while i certainly agree with you that the money paid to your company's former execs (especially in the context of the company's financial situation at that time) smacks of arrogance and outrageous fiscal irresponsibility, i must say that i cannot understand how alpa/mec believe a strike could possibly help things for the employees they represent."


Overpaidslacker,

Welcome to the board. Won't need that fire protection from me. Love your name...but being a doc, I know your not a slacker!
Alpa/MEC knows a strike is lethal to all.


""crazy enough" (to quote you, chip) is exactly what you would have to be to strike. it would almost certainly cost you your livelihood; in this economy, it is certainly not reasonable to expect to just turn around and be hired elsewhere (especially in the airline industry). on top of your lost salary, you would also lose whatever pension (or fraction thereof) you would have upon retiring."

Yes they KNOW!

"even if y'all are "crazy enough" to "burn this whole thing down", a strike may not have said desired effect anyhow. usairways will likely be able to higher pilots who have been furloughed elsewhere. union or not, people need to sustain their standard of living, and i can't recall the last time i heard of a union cutting paychecks to the employees they represent."

It would take @ least a year to hire and train 2500 pilots. Usair will not suvive days.

"i, for one, don't buy into the "you've got a high paying job, so shut up and like it" arugment. i have a high paying job, too, and i sympathize with my colleagues in pennsylvania, west virginia, new jersey, and elsewhere who have finally reacted to a marketplace (malpractice insurance -- both the companies themselves, and the lawyers who both write the malpractice laws and profit from them) that has exploited us for far too long. but in their situation, there is something to be won besides the satisfaction of watching the enemy "burn down". there does not appear to me to be an upside to you and yours by striking (or threatening to strike) soon."

This paragraph needs futher detail. Our local ER room ( se PA...60 Avg. patients a day ) pays $140 Grand for a full time position. NO vacation / health insurance / or pension plan. Only extra is paid mal-practice. That total comp plan pales to a captain. I am all too familiar with how pissed off doctors are in PA. Yet I see no one doing a damn thing about it. As a child the town doc lived in the nicest house in town. Now the bean counter's do. I lived in a neighborhood of $150,000 houses with 4 docs that were never home ( always working ). Yet they continue on...for they see no way out. Yeah some are closing up their practice....but usually at great hardship and financial loss. So what are the doc's winning??

"what seems most reasonable (and most likely to benefit you longterm) is to allow the company to reorganize, emerge from bankruptcy, stabilize financially, and then renegotiate the terms of your contracts/pensions, in the context of having generously granted concessions to the company when they were hurting. if they are unwilling to talk at that point, then screw them -- strike. at least at that point, the economy is likely to be in better shape (god willing), and a strike won't be such a direct shot in your own foot."

Labor laws for airline labor do not permit what you suggest.

"just some food for though. i'll be over here, donning my flame-resistant chain mail, awaiting your responses."
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Great post, doc..I am furloughed from U, going back to school for Health Information Technology..doctors or nurses do not get paid nearly what they are worth..plus the headaches of malpractice..I for one admire and respect what you do, even in adverse conditions..I am thankful that if I, or anyone in my family, is in need of medical care, that there are true professionals out there like you..thank you
 
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On 2/25/2003 4:05:14 PM savyinvestor wrote:

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On 2/25/2003 3:00:24 PM insp89 wrote:

I'm just a little amazed at the number of people that are shocked about the $35 MILLION dollar payments that went to our corporate CROOKS before they left this airline in the basket case that it is in. This is to be expected when you have a judicial system that has no interest in what's right or wrong..Where's the outrage when judge Mitchell granted $6 MILLION to our present corporate cowboys while the rest of us took DEEP pay and benefit cuts ?? A question for ALPA,, Could it be that handing out all those $1 million dollar lump sum retirement checks contribute to the shape of your fund ? Would it help to ask past retirees to give some back and in turn start receiving monthly payments ?
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Sorry, but don't expect anyone from ALPA responding. Excellent question though! Savy
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If we use a little logic, you and I won’t need to rely on a pilot to answer the questions for us.

Consider that every employee pension fund (those lucky enough to have one) was said to be under-funded and needed employee concessions to alleviate this problem. Why was this the case after such a booming decade for the stock market? There should have been a huge surplus, even after 911.

During the 90s when the stock market went bananas the company decided to stop putting money in the fund (ignoring the obvious cyclical nature of funds and the obvious huge number of retirees coming in this decade) and relied (in theory) on perpetual stock increases to sustain the increasing retirement funds requirements (while they spent $2 billion on U stock buy-backs to artificially inflate the failed U-UAL merger price to $60 a share). Management just happens to have the responsibility to manage the pension funds (they may delegate the authority to investment firms, but the pension is a company liability, witness: they now say they are in danger of liquidation if they are not allowed to cast off their pension responsibility.)

To conclude that a pilot retiree receiving his pension is responsible for the demise of the fund, is like saying that my turning on the kitchen light caused the demise of my electric company called Enron. (Perhaps you can interest Mr. Ken Lay in such an argument.)


And as to the question of whether or not it would help for employees to give back their lump sums and trade them for an annuity (As far as I know all lump sum options have now been terminated, at least for those without BOD largesse) only a fool would give his chickens to the wolf that is in charge of the chicken coop. Uh, I mean to the Fox in charge of the hen house.

Even so, anyone who still wishes to float a loan to the U BOD would certainly be well received at the Crystal Palace. I hear they are offering excellent repayment terms to those who lend them money.
 

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