US Airways'' pilots blast pension cuts as illegal

[Vikedog64]

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On 2/13/2003 750 PM pit76dr wrote:

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On 2/13/2003 7:18:54 PM insp89 wrote:

I would like to thank ALPA for funding my pension ! What a stand up bunch of fellas. It's great to know that you guys realize that our poor down-trodden company can no longer afford $1 million lump sum pension payments. I'm sure that everyone is aware that a 30 yr. retiring mechanic receives a pension of around $25,000 per year. I would like to request that ALPA consider raising my pension from $25,000 to around $70,000 or so, Which is around what a pilot retires on.. Gee,, Thanks [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif']
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Did you get a bachelors degree and then spend 8-10 years training in the military
or in the civilian market before you could become an airline mechanic? Think about it!!
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By taxpayers money...

 

[Bohica]

For the company to cancel the pension it will require the COURTS to change the agreement as part of the bankruptcy, unless the Union agree's to it (not gonna happen). If the courts do it without that Union's agreement then the Union is LEGALLY ALLOWED SELF HELP (that means to strike).

SO Any strikes, sickouts, slowdowns or whatnot would be 100 percent legal! That is why the company has NEGOTIATED up untill now, to prevent strikes. If they reach to far however and have get the court to alter the CBA (Collective Bargaining agreement AKA "The Contract) then the Genie is out of the bottle on the strikes and Welcome to Eastern Airlines.

You really should undestand the law before you make such statements LAVMAN...

Bohica

 

[D3o2r8kdrvr]

A certain member of the left seat seniority list is acting as if he's the only pilot at this company being asked to forfeit his pension. I wish everyone on this bulletin board could have witnessed his less than appropriate behavior this week in the PIT crew room. I really can't believe this guy is a CAPTAIN. What scares me even more is that this guy may have the opportunity to arm himself if legislation is passed. Noone is denying the ugly truth that we are getting screwed by managment. However, it is critical that we maintain our professionalism even when in the company of our peers. Yes Chip we understand, no fancy private schools in Pittsburgh, no new mini-vans for you wife, and enough people know about your mortgage now you could probably take up a collection.
Crying WOLF won't make the demons go away CHIP, AND THINKING YOUR ALONE IN THIS MESS ONLY DIGS A BIGGER HOLE. My advice, shut up in the the PIT crew room, you now have a long list of critics.

 

[Slam&Click]

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On 2/14/2003 2:42:04 PM D3o2r8kdrvr wrote:

A certain member of the left seat seniority list is acting as if he's the only pilot at this company being asked to forfeit his pension. I wish everyone on this bulletin board could have witnessed his less than appropriate behavior this week in the PIT crew room. I really can't believe this guy is a CAPTAIN. What scares me even more is that this guy may have the opportunity to arm himself if legislation is passed. Noone is denying the ugly truth that we are getting screwed by managment. However, it is critical that we maintain our professionalism even when in the company of our peers. Yes Chip we understand, no fancy private schools in Pittsburgh, no new mini-vans for you wife, and enough people know about your mortgage now you could probably take up a collection.
Crying WOLF won't make the demons go away CHIP, AND THINKING YOUR ALONE IN THIS MESS ONLY DIGS A BIGGER HOLE. My advice, shut up in the the PIT crew room, you now have a long list of critics.
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I'd been told by several sources about the inappropriate drama in the crewroom. What a shame.

 

[LavMan]

Bohica, you better go check the law, the Self-Help in the RLA only deals with section 6 negotiations, you are not in those. Bankruptcy laws and ERISA laws take precidence over the RLA anyhow.

Go check with ALPA's lawyers, cause our BK attorneys stated quite cleary, self-help such as a strike would be illegal.

 

[ual06]

It appears RSA is very willing to rip apart the pensions of others. Providing pensions is RSA's primary business. How safe are the pensions of those expecting to receive pensions through RSA ? What do those people have to look forward to ?

 

[usfliboi]

Although i dont agree with Chip all the time and i think he has gotton a dose of his own meds in the past few weeks, he has been willing to have his name out there. Unlike myself and others who choose not to publish their names he at least has the - - - - - to say who he is.

 

[Slam&Click]

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On 2/14/2003 406 PM usfliboi wrote:

Although i dont agree with Chip all the time and i think he has gotton a dose of his own meds in the past few weeks, he has been willing to have his name out there. Unlike myself and others who choose not to publish their names he at least has the - - - - - to say who he is.
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There were no names mentioned, usfliboi. Further, as has been stated here in the past: It is not uncommon to have a "nom de plume" on a message board. It is unwise to use your real name due to identity theft and cybernuts. It doesn't take - - - - - to say whom you are, it puts your welfare and safety at risk to do so. We teach our children the basics regarding internet safety. Everyone should heed those, it's common sense.

 

[savyinvestor]

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On 2/14/2003 3:40:00 PM Slam&Click wrote:

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On 2/14/2003 2:42:04 PM D3o2r8kdrvr wrote:

A certain member of the left seat seniority list is acting as if he's the only pilot at this company being asked to forfeit his pension. I wish everyone on this bulletin board could have witnessed his less than appropriate behavior this week in the PIT crew room. I really can't believe this guy is a CAPTAIN. What scares me even more is that this guy may have the opportunity to arm himself if legislation is passed. Noone is denying the ugly truth that we are getting screwed by managment. However, it is critical that we maintain our professionalism even when in the company of our peers. Yes Chip we understand, no fancy private schools in Pittsburgh, no new mini-vans for you wife, and enough people know about your mortgage now you could probably take up a collection.
Crying WOLF won't make the demons go away CHIP, AND THINKING YOUR ALONE IN THIS MESS ONLY DIGS A BIGGER HOLE. My advice, shut up in the the PIT crew room, you now have a long list of critics.
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I'd been told by several sources about the inappropriate drama in the crewroom. What a shame.
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How can Munn be complaining after all the brow beating he gave the other labor groups? What happened to "quit if you don't like it here"? Besides I thought he already had another job lined up. Whats good for the goose....... Savy

 

[N628AU]

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On 2/13/2003 10:44:59 PM Bohica wrote:

For the company to cancel the pension it will require the COURTS to change the agreement as part of the bankruptcy, unless the Union agree's to it (not gonna happen). If the courts do it without that Union's agreement then the Union is LEGALLY ALLOWED SELF HELP (that means to strike).

SO Any strikes, sickouts, slowdowns or whatnot would be 100 percent legal! That is why the company has NEGOTIATED up untill now, to prevent strikes. If they reach to far however and have get the court to alter the CBA (Collective Bargaining agreement AKA "The Contract) then the Genie is out of the bottle on the strikes and Welcome to Eastern Airlines.

You really should undestand the law before you make such statements LAVMAN...

Bohica
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Bohica,

Think what you want to think, but I have many friends who are attorneys, and they all have told me one thing. The letter of the law has very little meaning outside book work in law school. When the law goes into practice, it is whoever has the best attorneys that win 90% of the time. I am sure some of our attorney customers will tell you the same thing. I am sure that the company and RSA have far deeper pockets to fight this than ALPA has. I really hated hearing that, but I have heard it so many times, and seen it happen so many times, I have come to accept it as truth.

Wasn't this the same ALPA that was going to fight Freedom Air tooth and nail with all of it's vast resources? That lasted right up until they had the option to eat their young once again.

I ask the question once again, how many company motions has Judge Mitchell refused? I think the answer lies in the fact that Chip is no longer posting as often, as I am sure he has even surrendered this fight as a lost cause. If the stories about the PIT crew room are true, and related to him, I know he is somewhat less thaan pleased. That tells me he knows the fight to keep the pension is lost.

 

[chipmunn]

D3o2r8kdrvr:

I am based in DCA, I am on vacation, and I was not in the PIT crew room this week involved in any discussion. By the way, did you read ALPA's 40 page objection to the company's plan to terminate the pilot pension?

In case you missed it click onto http://www.usairwayspilots.org/

Regards,

Chip

 

[OldpropGuy]

3. Agree to the company’s request that the IAM-M and its members be forced to pay US Airways $5.1 million per month and the CWA $2.1 million per month for six months.

With the legal precedent of Judge Mitchell agreeing to every company request used as a benchmark, in my opinion the bankruptcy court will rule in favor of the company at a Section 1113 hearing. The judge has no option to adjust the restructuring agreements; therefore, a no vote will not-result in a better deal. A no vote will simply inflict more pain on union members and colleagues who elect to remain at the company post Section 1113 hearing.

This is not a time for emotion to interfere with logic. It appears the cuts are coming and the choice is to either agree to the current restructuring accords or be prepared to receive deeper cuts, be prevented from striking, and be forced to pay the company damages, which could be accessed against the members even if an employee leaves employment. For those disgruntled, it may be better to vote yes and simply leave the company than risk having to personally pay damages.

Chip]

Seems some think things have changed now, but much of this still applies.

 

[OldpropGuy]

All this made me search for a previous post by Chip posted 9/9/2002 11:28:33 AM:

[These are difficult and emotional times for every US Airways active & furloughed employee. Nobody likes what is occurring, including Dave Siegel, but employee concessions are required to meet the Credit Facility (DIP/Emergence financing) and ATSB loan guarantee requirements. Without these restructuring agreements all bets are off and this is something the company cannot and will not allow to happen.

Lakeguy67 expressed the legal issue extremely well when he or she said, "congress established section 1113 of the bankruptcy code because in 1982 with just a stroke of a pen a judge abrogated all contracts at Continental Airlines, under Lorenzo as CEO and Wolf as President. In 1983 section 1113 was passed, all this does is ensure that a judge at just a stroke of a pen does not abrogate a contract. There are nine criteria a company has to meet in order for the judge to abrogate. So far US Airways is batting 100% in having every motion they have filed granted to them."

If either the CWA or IAM-M restructuring agreement is not ratified the company will ask Judge Mitchell to:

1. Terminate any union contract that has not been voluntarily restructured. If this occurs the company will be free to impose deeper cuts in pay, work rules, and benefits.

2. Provide an order preventing any union to strike.
(continued next post)

 

[pit76dr]

Lavman:

Do you really think the company relishes an absolutely "poisonous" relationship with its pilot group? If they do not acquiesce to our pension requirements, which are completely reasonable to any fair-minded man, they will risk this scenario. Will they risk their future riches over this issue? -- I think not! If they win in court and we are stopped from work action, would they further compound our ire by having a fine slapped on us for attempting self-help in some other form? -- I think not!

The end result -- IF WE STAND UNITED -- is the retention of our pension as promised: "2.4% DOH to Jan. '03 and FAE best 36 out of 10".

Without this result the company will not be healthy and WILL NOT be able to pursue it's competitive structure as they emerge from BK!

 

[Zephyr]

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LavMan wrote:


ALPA cannot strike, plain and simple, US Airways will own ALPA national if the pilots try to wildcat.
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True enough, APLPA national could be... However, I gayronteeeee there is NO love between National ALPA and U ALPA right now. They ain't gots no room for asking favors.

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LavMan also wrote:
Yep ask the Allied Pilots Association how much it cost them? Ask UAL mechanics and NWA mechanics how it feels to be fired for violating the injuction that prohibits a slowdown.

Cause US will have one slapped against ALPA faster then your head can spin!
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True again. But at this point it seems that most pilots feel that the pension is the only reason to show up for work anymore. If Austin takes the pension... most guys are planning on escaping to the Virgin Islands, wearing fip flops and living in a tent on the beach.


Perhaps Austin and company are just building as much pressure as possible so that the pilots will be happy with a "new plan" that is still a hose job, but not as bad as complete termination.

In any case, the IAM, the AFA, etc. are likely to be "visisted" next...

[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/7.gif']