Us Airways' Biggest Union:

[cavalier]

USA320pilot, you keep going after the mechanics, but going into Chapter 11 again can be dicey for everyone, including you!

The captain is so full of himself thinking he has everyone’s psyche figured out. Just look at the AMEN topic for his psychic abilities as he reads the mechanic’s mind set.


He is so damn touchy that he fails to see when someone is playing with him, so I say he and not the mechanics are extremely overly emotional.


Read PIYGUY'S posts because he expresses exactly how I truly feel as well, and we are NOT alone, and if anyone thinks we are, watch and see when things get really nasty if we will "change" our collective minds.

GOD’S Speed to the IAM

 

[firstamendment]

That's not so nice a thing to say. Calling someone a loser puts you in the category of the people you purport to despise on this board.

US Airways ultimately is just a company. Companies and jobs come and go. All the time. Ultimately we are just customers from which to maximize revenue from (my case) or employees to maximize productivity from. We as living breathing human beings mean nothing in the ultimate scheme of things at a corporation. If someone treats us well it is because they want to earn our repeat business or for us to be more productive. In other words it's just good business. Liking you or me only matters if you're looking to get promoted.

I work for a great company and if I got a phone call saying the company went broke and don't bother coming in I'd just go to the unemployment office and call my recruiter and go about my business of getting a different job.

I respect that Pitguy wants to vote NO! He has his reasons. I'll debate those with him and he with me. I can assure you he is not a loser, he just comes from a different place in his life and head. You have to give him credit for actually having a plan. He figured out what works for HIM, which is what I've been preaching on here all along. Have a plan, work it.

Is debate on his plan and points of view that led him to it fair game for debate? YES

Is calling him a loser for articulating a position you disagree with right? NO!!!!!

Piney
If it was a concern with reason, I could understand, but too many times, it is anger...pure hate and discust!!..You do not work here. I do and I am over the bashings. If you do not like it,,Leave !!! YOu are NOT...I repeat..NOT entitlled to a job. I cxan;t belieb=ve you, of all people, would defend such. Just GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sentrido]

Actually, IAM members are entitled to a job per the contract.

 

[cavalier]

That's not so nice a thing to say. Calling someone a loser puts you in the category of the people you purport to despise on this board.

US Airways ultimately is just a company. Companies and jobs come and go. All the time. Ultimately we are just customers from which to maximize revenue from (my case) or employees to maximize productivity from. We as living breathing human beings mean nothing in the ultimate scheme of things at a corporation. If someone treats us well it is because they want to earn our repeat business or for us to be more productive. In other words it's just good business. Liking you or me only matters if you're looking to get promoted.

I work for a great company and if I got a phone call saying the company went broke and don't bother coming in I'd just go to the unemployment office and call my recruiter and go about my business of getting a different job.

I respect that Pitguy wants to vote NO! He has his reasons. I'll debate those with him and he with me. I can assure you he is not a loser, he just comes from a different place in his life and head. You have to give him credit for actually having a plan. He figured out what works for HIM, which is what I've been preaching on here all along. Have a plan, work it.

Is debate on his plan and points of view that led him to it fair game for debate? YES

Is calling him a loser for articulating a position you disagree with right? NO!!!!!

Bobby, your lessons in life are like having my own personal Maharishi Mahesh Yogi to guide my path, your wisdom overwhelms me and fills my soul. Thanks for being there Bobby.

 

[cavalier]

Well Cav,

Pardon me for caring. I've had the rectal probe of a personal BK and it ain't pretty. Talk about a humbling experience but a learning experience too.

If my little bit of preaching on financial prudence saves ONE US Airways employee the pain of personal BK then every single post will have been worth it and then some.

I certainly don't have all of the answers, Hell I don't even know the questions some days. But I have a little bit of experience regarding lifes trials and tribulations and if I can spare someone, I'd like to. Learning lifes lessons the hard way seems to be my stock in trade and there is some comfort in knowing that somebody else didn't have to learn the lessons as difficultly as I did.

Look at the government, business and personal finances and debt is their mortal enemy. Look at Airways for proof positive. Cash is God, Debt is the Devil. A classic battle between good and evil.

Hey Bob, that was a SERIOUS compliment, as I advised the captain...

Breath D_E_E_P


I am glad you understand where pitguy is coming from, a lot of us are of the same mind.

 

[PITbull]

Yes, US, I am angry because everyone wants to pick on those who want the company to survive. Somehow it isnt "vogue" if we want to continue a life we like. I am sick and tired of those Norma Rae wannabees surfrificing who are too stupid to realize that the tide has changed. It is a tired mantre to blame the company for EVERYTHING. NObody, I mean nobody keeps us here. Do you rreally think I like what has happened here? Do you? But if anyone goes against the bitter angriness, they are thought as management. That is insulting!! I can se ALL sides, but to down someone like Chip because he has a different view is insulting. I agree with alot of his views. Face it or not, unions are useless. The mangaements of the US have worked around it. Give or liquidate. You HAVE NO POWER OVER THAT!!. I will not support that stupid ideology that dictates full pay till the last day so there...if I am angry. you are damn right..WAKE UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is folks like you that weaken the union. You and folks like you are the reason why so many are on the street and those on the property have given so much.

The "bar" will be lowered. And you will get what you and those with your mind set believe you are worth. And those who are stakeholders and senior mangement will reap the rewards of your sacrifice, effort, and devotion. You will not.

Hope you really, really enjoy that jumpseat. Your asset will be sitting on for many many hours per day. But then again, you can then decide to quit!!!!

 

[cavalier]

What I disagree with is proclaiming how this time is going to be different without presenting any evidence to back that up. Especially if the proclamation is filled with superlatives about how great the "new plan" is.

Jim

All of your points are valid and this one being the very best reason to support the IAM in their no talk stance.

I am convinced that this management team is in over their heads and incapable of seeing us through the storm. So why oh why on that reason alone, "and their are many other valid reasons", would I vote to accept way less along with a job loss when I can have it status quo until the end? Hence being further ahead having been able to save even more until it's over.

There is so much anger on here, some of it even vented at me personally, and that particular poster is now in the cornfield to cooling off. Anger is wasted energy and anger is all this management teams stirs, they are not capable of something constructive making everyone work in harmony for the good of all, but the opposite of only creating an extremely divisive work force. This is surely going to result in absolute failure, so folks, hang on for the ride, it's been a rough choppy one for sure. Unless divine intervention comes forth soon, we all are going to be facing a career change soon.

 

[Groucho]

In reply to a post further up the board on this subject; I belive the poster wanted A320 Captain to explain how the company can abbrogate union contracts in bankruptcy.

For all those interested go to google and look up "Belidisco decision" + "bankruptcy reform". The Belidisco decision came from a law suit by the teamsters against a trucking firm that had abrogated a contract in bankruptcy. The Supreme Court held that the company had the right to this action and upheld the contract abrogation. This action, in 1984, occured while Contential Airlines was in Chapter 11. ALPA had filed an appeal on just the same matter and the Belidisco decision rendered the ALPA petition moot.

ALPA and other unions gained additional protection in chapter 11 filings in the future through congressional action and amendments to the bankruptcy law.

The actual wording of the statutes are vague and although "good faith" does appear in the language there are many other considerations.

From a law school library excerpt......
"The second circuit announced additional considerations for rejections...
The court holds that rejection of a contract would be permitted only after careful weighing of all factors and equities involved and a determination that the contract is so onerous and burdonesome that it would thwart efforts to save afailing carrrier in bankruptcy from collapse."

This is an interperatation of section 1113 filings.

This means the company will have to it's ducks in a row regarding costs and comparisions with other companies. This also means that the IAM better have it's ducks in a row on the proposed cost savings. They would need to be real and measureable, I don't see how adding radios and a work out room will cut it with the judge.

 

[MrAeroMan]

I do not know the exact breakdown of the numbers as I am not involved, so go ask the GCs involved.

Also I know the SOS, Ship or Shelf rotable parts is worth $500,000 a month alone.

So stop putting the onus on me, put it on the company and if you say you are not an employee, I don't owe anything to you, I have posted Facts of what I know, the things I don't, I don't post.

You are the one who comes on here spouting your so called facts yet you have nothing to back it up. You've mentioned on these boards countless times the $80-100 million figure and now all of a sudden you come out with the disclaimer that you're not involved. So much for your "facts". You preach about the IAM and back them up because according to you the union is the membership and you're only as strong as your weakest member. Well guess what. If you're active as a member then YOU are responsible for the decisions that are made on your behalf. Now when pressed for some of your "facts" you can't produce them and say you don't owe anything to any non-employee. What you've done is prove what I've suspected all along. You are a fraud. You are just like what you accuse 320 of being. You are no different in doing the same things you chastise him about. The difference is he posts his facts and you just beat your chest.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

You are the one who comes on here spouting your so called facts yet you have nothing to back it up. You've mentioned on these boards countless times the $80-100 million figure and now all of a sudden you come out with the disclaimer that you're not involved. So much for your "facts". You preach about the IAM and back them up because according to you the union is the membership and you're only as strong as your weakest member. Well guess what. If you're active as a member then YOU are responsible for the decisions that are made on your behalf. Now when pressed for some of your "facts" you can't produce them and say you don't owe anything to any non-employee. What you've done is prove what I've suspected all along. You are a fraud. You are just like what you accuse 320 of being. You are no different in doing the same things you chastise him about. The difference is he posts his facts and you just beat your chest.

Though I will not argue about what you say about 700UW I do take issue that USA320Pilot posts facts. He posts real articles and some things he says are true but for the most part he spins stories or untruths in his posts. He rarely defends anything he says and just says it over and over. Seems he thinks the more he says it the more people might start believing it.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

You are the one who comes on here spouting your so called facts yet you have nothing to back it up. You've mentioned on these boards countless times the $80-100 million figure and now all of a sudden you come out with the disclaimer that you're not involved. So much for your "facts". You preach about the IAM and back them up because according to you the union is the membership and you're only as strong as your weakest member. Well guess what. If you're active as a member then YOU are responsible for the decisions that are made on your behalf. Now when pressed for some of your "facts" you can't produce them and say you don't owe anything to any non-employee. What you've done is prove what I've suspected all along. You are a fraud. You are just like what you accuse 320 of being. You are no different in doing the same things you chastise him about. The difference is he posts his facts and you just beat your chest.

I was asked to post this ..


March 30, 2004

US Airways Update

To All IAM Members Employed by US Airways:

Dear Sisters and Brothers,

On March 24, 2004 US Airways CEO David Siegel addressed his employees, shareholders and passengers through an Internet video web cast. Siegel tried using fear, rewriting history and criticizing your union’s leadership to gain employee support for additional pay, benefit, and work rule concessions. He failed miserably, and looked like a CEO making a very public plea to save his job in the face of his own miserable failure.

Siegel claimed that the airline has been avoiding the issue of high employee costs. He apparently has forgotten that District 141 and 141-M members are already providing the carrier with $278 million in annual cost reductions as a result of the company’s bankruptcy.

Thousands of employees have been furloughed, and active employees are working harder, earning less and paying more for healthcare to ensure the future of US Airways.

Further demonstrating the IAM’s commitment to US Airways, District 141 and 141-M Representatives have been meeting separately with members of Siegel’s management team to ensure the airline operates in the most efficient manner possible. The $80-100 million the company could save by enacting the IAM’s recommendations would be achieved without necessitating changes to collective bargaining agreements.

Similarly, IAM officials have held constructive meetings with US Airways Chairman Dr. Bronner to develop a positive working relationship. The IAM’s commitment to a viable and competitive US Airways is without question.

Siegel’s tunnel vision, however, prevents him from acknowledging the substantial participation of IAM members in the airline’s recovery. He clearly appears to be out of touch with what is occurring within his own company.

Incredibly, Siegel also used the web cast as a platform to renegotiate his employment contract, offering to reduce his compensation to a level comparable to the CEO’s of low cost carriers. But those CEO’s and their company’s are successful, and similar compensation for David Siegel would still be too much and cannot be justified.

As graphs appearing in the March 1, 2004 issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology demonstrate, US Airways has lowered personnel costs by 12 percent since 2002. However, the company’s non-personnel costs actually increased by more than 4 percent. By comparison, all of US Airways' competitors were successful in reducing non-personnel costs during that same period.

It is painfully evident that David Siegel’s bankruptcy restructuring did nothing but reduce labor costs while failing to similarly reduce non-labor costs.

Siegel’s business plan seems to be centered on scaring employees. Unfortunately, he is 20 years too late to scare airline employees into believing that repeated concessions could save an airline. Airline after airline has demonstrated that no amount of employee concessions could save a company from its own incompetent management.

Siegel likes to blame the unions for US Airways’ problems, but it was he who a year ago claimed to the business community, the Air Transportation Stabilization Board, and his employees that he a had a business plan to make US Airways successful.

It was the employees that gave David Siegel the tools he said he needed to make the plan work. However, he has failed us all and it is now time for him to do the right thing. David Siegel must begin working with, not against, his most important asset, his employees. Otherwise, he should step aside and give the job to someone capable of handling

Sincerely and fraternally,

Randy Canale
President
IAM District 141

Scotty Ford
President
IAM District 141-M

 

[cavalier]

Just out of curiousity is A320 small in stature? I could swear he has a Napolean Complex but I could be wrong.

Bob

We are in total agreement here!

The captain is not a bad looking fellow and what I call a average build, not muscular nor scrawny. He looks and this is just my opinion, he looks like a high school kid who hangs out with the nerds, sort of nerdish looking. He is just a guy who thinks in a narrow straight line and it's about impossible for him to look outside of that barrier he lives in. Be it his up bringing or the military training or a combination of his whole life's experience, whatever, but this equals our good captain.

He could never be a political candidate because of his unconscious proclivity to be ostentatiously over bearing at times. He also can't stand people who he doesn't understand and feels they need more discipline in their life.

This is my short version of the captain’s psychological profile at no charge....

Cav

 

[MrAeroMan]

Though I will not argue about what you say about 700UW I do take issue that USA320Pilot posts facts. He posts real articles and some things he says are true but for the most part he spins stories or untruths in his posts. He rarely defends anything he says and just says it over and over. Seems he thinks the more he says it the more people might start believing it.

What I said was they were his facts as he sees them. Like Piney has said that doesn't mean it's true and correct and neither does it mean he is incorrect. I'm not agreeing with 320 nor am I disagreeing. All I am saying is he usually has supporting information in his posts supporting his point of view and then you can determine for yourself if you want to believe him or not. I agree with what you're saying here and he does spin the story as well as beats a repetitive drum ad nauseum but his spin is no different than the spin supplied by 700UW. That's what I was trying to point out.

One more thing. If the IAM members think for one minute that the national union would not throw the ENTIRE represented membership under the bus to prove to the other airlines unionized workers that they fought the good fight at UAIR then I've got a fine bridge in Brooklyn that is for sale. That would happen in a NY minute and would instantly become their organizing drum beat as they march forward saying how strong a union they are...look at how strong we were with UAIR.

 

[cavalier]

One more thing. If the IAM members think for one minute that the national union would not throw the ENTIRE represented membership under the bus to prove to the other airlines unionized workers that they fought the good fight at UAIR then I've got a fine bridge in Brooklyn that is for sale. That would happen in a NY minute and would instantly become their organizing drum beat as they march forward saying how strong a union they are...look at how strong we were with UAIR.

Call it thrown under the bus or run over by the BUS which is the focal point of this entire matter.

Caterpillar shows us some IAM history which isn't pretty, but short of an overthrow or massive picket crossing which IMO will never happen, the IAM will have its way for the better or for the worse of us all, and I mean ALL Employees.

Unlike the captain likes to say, there is no WITHOUT the unions and still be an airline unless history is about to change.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

What I said was they were his facts as he sees them. Like Piney has said that doesn't mean it's true and correct and neither does it mean he is incorrect. I'm not agreeing with 320 nor am I disagreeing. All I am saying is he usually has supporting information in his posts supporting his point of view and then you can determine for yourself if you want to believe him or not. I agree with what you're saying here and he does spin the story as well as beats a repetitive drum ad nauseum but his spin is no different than the spin supplied by 700UW. That's what I was trying to point out.

One more thing. If the IAM members think for one minute that the national union would not throw the ENTIRE represented membership under the bus to prove to the other airlines unionized workers that they fought the good fight at UAIR then I've got a fine bridge in Brooklyn that is for sale. That would happen in a NY minute and would instantly become their organizing drum beat as they march forward saying how strong a union they are...look at how strong we were with UAIR.

First off a definition of a fact:

[n] a piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred; "first you must collect all the facts of the case"
[n] a concept whose truth can be proved; "scientific hypotheses are not facts"
[n] a statement or assertion of verified information about something that is the case or has happened; "he supported his argument with an impressive array of facts"
[n] an event known to have happened or something known to have existed; "your fears have no basis in fact"; "how much of the story is fact and how much fiction is hard to tell

Now when someone conjures up something he thinks will happen, unless you are a mental case, how can you believe it as fact in your head or otherwise?

You talk about supporting information. I would love to see his supporting information regarding what will happen as fact in the future. Can you point it out to me? Especially the part that about the exact course of events that will happen if the IAM votes no. But I don't want to here what the company or union SAYS will happen (or USA320Pilot for that matter) I want to see facts that support his spin.

Though I never said I was an employee of USAirways I would care less about any trains. It is not about the union its about the company and how it is run.