Us Air Outlines Case For Additional Concessions

[PITbull]

Why do you people not understand how compensation for upper management works.

It may look like the common worker is taking pay and benefit cuts while the CEO is rewarding himself and others on his team. Because that's the way it works. They whip the workers into shape and for accomplishing that, they get rewarded. Dave will never take a pay cut because the common worker did. Now I'm not saying that his compensation is in line for his title, just that because you had to, he doesn't.

flyin2low,

Guess WHAT? Yes he does.

 

[robbedagain]

well according to that article in the nytimes, the sale tatic worked to get them together. we'll see soon that of course it will be the folks in the small-to-medium
stations such as ABE AVP or ILM or CLE get axed a lot more than the mainline hubs!

 

[Bear96]

Sorry Bear96,


Life does not begin and end with USAirways. There are 250,000,000 Americans who have lives outside of any existence with USAirways, and I am sure they don't have "dismal" jobs.

Perhaps in your world; not in ours.

PITbull,

I was alluding to the poster's own words-- s/he said, "The job market bites." So I guess in this person's world, job prospects are pretty dismal. And for a significant proportion of your members, the F/A job is probably the best they will do. I am not saying that is a bad thing, but it is silly to pretend otherwise.

By the way, we ALL live in the same world. It is just that some of us have a better grasp of its realities, while others of us live in a fantasy world of denial and mindless, knee-jerk labor union rhetoric.

 

[youngblood]

Sorry Bear96,


Life does not begin and end with USAirways. There are 250,000,000 Americans who have lives outside of any existence with USAirways, and I am sure they don't have "dismal" jobs.

Perhaps in your world; not in ours.

PITbull,

I was alluding to the poster's own words-- s/he said, "The job market bites." So I guess in this person's world, job prospects are pretty dismal. And for a significant proportion of your members, the F/A job is probably the best they will do. I am not saying that is a bad thing, but it is silly to pretend otherwise.

By the way, we ALL live in the same world. It is just that some of us have a better grasp of its realities, while others of us live in a fantasy world of denial and mindless, knee-jerk labor union rhetoric.

Bear96,

FYI my job prospects are pretty dismal for my area of expertise - teaching; however, I continue to place my resume in every school district within a fifty mile radius - yearly. Unfortunately at approx. 1000 applicants per position it's kind of hard to find a job doing what I really want to do. Not to mention politics is the name of the game in afore mentioned field. U Air offered me the best opportunity to support my family on one income. ( A meager one at best. At approx $12 an hour, I can barely make ends meet.) So can I afford more cuts? That is a big fat NO!!!!! So before you make assumptions about ANYONE's particular situation, ask for the particulars first. There are a lot of people in this company that have similar situations. A lot of us are not sitting on our butts doing nothing but endulging in union rhetoric. We're going to school, searching for other positions, and supporting a family as well. So ........ before you suggest I give more or am doing nothing but whining let me lay it all on the table for you. I have three young children, a spouse that's disabled, and DO NOT have the option to relocate until I can find a position that accounts for cost of living and relocation expenses. It's not for lack of trying. Simply put, it's because the job market stinks for ME!!!!!!!

 

[usfliboi]

Because, should the unions play hardball and Dave & Dave tire of the game, they will just pull the plug and then go on to rape & pillage another airline at a six-figure salary.

Meantime you will still be left with your bils and tuition and much dimmer job prospects.

I am not saying it is right, but it is what it is.

Sorry Bear96,


Life does not begin and end with USAirways. There are 250,000,000 Americans who have lives outside of any existence with USAirways, and I am sure they don't have "dismal" jobs.

Perhaps in your world; not in ours.

Sounds like some of us my get to find out !

 

[usfliboi]

Sorry Bear96,


Life does not begin and end with USAirways. There are 250,000,000 Americans who have lives outside of any existence with USAirways, and I am sure they don't have "dismal" jobs.

Perhaps in your world; not in ours.

PITbull,

I was alluding to the poster's own words-- s/he said, "The job market bites." So I guess in this person's world, job prospects are pretty dismal. And for a significant proportion of your members, the F/A job is probably the best they will do. I am not saying that is a bad thing, but it is silly to pretend otherwise.

By the way, we ALL live in the same world. It is just that some of us have a better grasp of its realities, while others of us live in a fantasy world of denial and mindless, knee-jerk labor union rhetoric.

Bear hopefully your a union person but i will say this. I am an afa member and dont appreciate the name calling misunderstanding rhet torrr ic your saying either. Although i greatly disagree with many of my fellow posters on here, I am proud to be a part of some very smart hard working union members. What is happening today at USAIR is not one persons fault ! There are multiple problems that have attacked us from within and out side. The difference I see it as we have to work with out prejudice to solve these problems.

 

[700UW]

Kinda of funny how you say you are an AFA member and F/A, you always seem to be on here everyday.

Something does not seem right.

 

[Bear96]

Bear96,

FYI my job prospects are pretty dismal for my area of expertise - teaching; however, I continue to place my resume in every school district within a fifty mile radius - yearly. Unfortunately at approx. 1000 applicants per position it's kind of hard to find a job doing what I really want to do. Not to mention politics is the name of the game in afore mentioned field. U Air offered me the best opportunity to support my family on one income. ( A meager one at best. At approx $12 an hour, I can barely make ends meet.) So can I afford more cuts? That is a big fat NO!!!!! So before you make assumptions about ANYONE's particular situation, ask for the particulars first. There are a lot of people in this company that have similar situations. A lot of us are not sitting on our butts doing nothing but endulging in union rhetoric. We're going to school, searching for other positions, and supporting a family as well. So ........ before you suggest I give more or am doing nothing but whining let me lay it all on the table for you. I have three young children, a spouse that's disabled, and DO NOT have the option to relocate until I can find a position that accounts for cost of living and relocation expenses. It's not for lack of trying. Simply put, it's because the job market stinks for ME!!!!!!!

Whoa there youngblood... I think you have completely misinterpreted what I am saying.

I never suggested you should take more cuts. That is for you to decide after considering both life after more cuts, and the potential consequences of refusing more cuts. I would not suggest what U employees should or should not do. You all have very difficult choices to make in the months ahead and only you can make them for yourselves. It is easier for outsiders to give advice, but they don't have to live with the consequences of the choices, so I wouldn't dream of telling someone what to do in terms of more concessions.

I was not saying you are indulging in union rhetoric. I was referring to PITbull. Perhaps I was too subtle.

You say U offered you the best opportunity to support your family, you have limited opportunities to relocat or make other major changes in your life, your job prospects outside of U are dismal, and many others at U are in a similar situation. THAT WAS EXACTLY MY POINT.

It is some of the union-rhetoric spewers mindlessly chanting things like "We don't need this job-- I could all go out and get a better job than this tomorrow if I had to" that I have problems with. This is not true for the vast majority of F/As, and you and I both seem to know it. Others either don't want to admit it, or have not taken a serious look at what is out there right now without a graduate degree or equivalent in certain fields. (If it were true, what is the big deal about furloughs? If you are furloughed but can get another job tomorrow paying at least as much as what you are making now, why worry about it? I am speaking hypothetically youngblood, not asking you a direct question I hope you understand.)

If you are going to school and searching for other positions, you are doing the right thing and will come out of this OK in the end. That is what I am doing too since I don't see a very bright future at UA either where I am a F/A-- we may survive but this is no longer a job I want anymore with all the cutbacks and changes.

 

[PITbull]

Bear ,

Again, you make these assumptions on your own beliefs of what individuals' backgrounds are who hold a f/as position. I AM NOT SPEWING ANY UNION MINDLESS RETORHIC, BUT RATHER WHAT I ACTUALLY KNOW FROM MY PERCH, SIR.

And I have posted before what our group in particular other skills are and what they are capable of doing and jobs they can hold. Many of our workers have other jobs and private businesses. They only took this job because of the "flexibility", that is fast evaporating. And we will all see the votes from the majority of labor. And I will exclude the mainline pilots, as their standard of living is still above average, while the rest of the rank and file is living below standards bordering on "poor" for many others if they only have THIS job as their sole income.

Take your distain for me and my retorhic out of the equation. AND THINK just what many of our f/as backgrounds are. You must have missed that past post.

 

[Bear96]

Of course many F/As have "marketable" skills and have chosen to fly for various reasons. (Surprise! As a F/A myself believe it or not I too have come into contact with many F/As!)

The question comes down to, What can they get for those skills in today's job market? And PineyBob I hope you don't think that very many F/As have the Wall Street investment banker background your friend has. While there are F/As who are lawyers and who have Ivy League educations, they are the exception.

So PITbull, back to my question...

If there are just SO many better job opportunities out there and we are SO highly qualified for them, why all the fuss and worry about being furloughed?

I think many F/As are more like usfliboi, terrified for their future and cowering in fear that U will shut its doors and they know they will be flipping burgers somewhere and so are willing to give anything-- ANYTHING-- in the way of more concessions in the desperate hope it will somehow save their company...

 

[PITbull]

Bob,

Just to augment what you stated above, f/as love the job, because it had flexibility, and a decent income for the time put in. Once the profession no longer has the flexibility and the wage, and it takes up most of your time so that you can't even make a living doing something else to subsidize it and it starts to cost you money to keep, it turns into a job in a tube for 13 hours a day.


Bear96,

You imply above that f/as can't take their skills they have from this present profession and take them out into the open market. What skills are you referring to? Pouring cokes and sprites?

Flight attendants have many skills in this profession. Taking care of the safety and comfort of all kinds of passengers with many different personalities all day long is no small feat.
Skills to diffuse anger, and react quckly to medical and flight emergencies and perform proficiently takes practice. Able to time manage job duties and responsibilities takes experience. I wouldn't say that f/as can't take their skills out to the open market, along with their education backgrounds.

And Usfliboi is the "exception" rather than the rule, if you believe he is even a f/a.

 

[Bear96]

Flight attendants have many skills at this profession. Taking care of the safety and comfort of all kinds of passengers with many different personalities all day long is no small feat.
Skills to diffuse anger, and react quckly to medical and flight emergencies and perform proficiently takes practice. Able to time manage job duties and responsibilities takes experience. I wouldn't say that f/as can't take their skills out to the open market, along with their education backgrounds.

I agree these are skills that F/As have.

I disagree that they are worth very much in today's job market.

It would be nice if they were worth a lot. But unfortunately, they are not.

 

[PITbull]

Well Bear,

I guess in your world, employers don't value employees who can "time manage", present and communicate with customers effectively and provide excellent customer care from their experience working with the public with all kinds of different cultures and personality types day in and day out; I guess that would be deemed worthless. I suppose in your universe, if employers had a choice, they would rather hire folks that have no experience with the public and can't "time manage" worth a ####. LOL...

My sister runs a "call center" of over 500 employees, and she only hires folks with the skills and experience similar to what flight attendants possess.

I know I surely wouldn't want to apply with a company that sees no value in the above.

 

[Bear96]

Well Bear,

I guess in your world, employers don't value employees who can "time manage", present and communicate with customers effectively and provide excellent customer care from their experience working with the public with all kinds of different cultures and personality types day in and day out; I guess that would be deemed worthless. I suppose in your universe, if employers had a choice, they would rather hire folks that have no experience with the public and can't "time mange" worth a ####. LOL...

BINGO!

"Time manage" ... manage WHAT exactly?

If you are measuring it in terms of compensation, it is correct that employers don't pay a lot for ("value") employees with no advanced degrees and who have only some vague, amorphous skills such as "time mangement" and "can provide excellent customer care."

Again, I wish it weren't so and we were actually "valued" for these skills. But IT JUST AIN'T SO.

And... You "guess in [my] world" this is how it is-- as if your world is different? Well, maybe you should get out of the AFA office more... but the local newspaper want ads in "my world" are pretty grim.

Tell ya what... prove me wrong... post a link to a job (from "your world") that pays more than a F/A salary, with paid sick leave, vacation, a pension, and cheap health insurance (believe it or not, unionized airline workers still pay relatively low health insurance premiums compared to many other jobs)... and that only requires "good time management skills" and a requirement that I "play well with others" and can "communicate effectively."

Time to wake up PITbull... "if employers had a choice" (and they do), they would rather hire folks willing to work for minimum wage and no benefits for many unskilled jobs. "Experience with the public" and "time management" skills are worth, oh I'd say... maybe... 30 cents more an hour than bottom minimum wage.

But again... prove me wrong.

 

[Bear96]

My sister runs a "call center" of over 500 employees, and she only hires folks with the skills and experience similar to what flight attendants possess.

Great! Good for her!

And she pays...

> How much per hour?

> What are the health insurance benefits (how much do the employees pay per month per family)?

> How much paid vacation do the employees get?

> What is the paid sick leave policy?

> What is their defined benefit pension like?

> What union do they belong to?

> If your sister's work place is a worker's paradise on Earth, why aren't furloughed F/As just heading on over there in droves and not caring about their furloughs or recalls?