UAL Contract Proposal Info

[1AA]

 
Heard he is on med leave. Hurt his back lifting shrimp and smoking stogies.

Face it he is afraid of facing the guys on the floor.
He is scamming a medical leave until he decides what to do next.
I'm surprised Gless did not pull the same medical scam.

 

[Kev3188]

Face it he is afraid of facing the guys on the floor.
 

 
After what he's done to all of you, can you blame him?
 
Frankly, I'd be more surprised to read that one of you saw him back turning wrenches...

 

[1AA]

 
After what he's done to all of you, can you blame him?
 
Frankly, I'd be more surprised to read that one of you saw him back turning wrenches...

Yea but he hasn't turned a wrench for so many years he needs to go back to school.
Lets see now......... Ritey titey, lefty, loosy, I think?

 

[767 mechanic]

That's if the Union agrees to bring it back. Just enough votes to pass? That's a strategy based upon a company controlling a union, its wrong for a Union to bring a contract back that can only be passed by using fear tactics and having guys who are leaving the company be the deciding factor, it means that as soon as those folks leave the majority that remains voted against the deal. That's what "company Unions" do.
 
 
 
So what you are saying is that you favor the Union driving work away from the line and to the base? Show me the language that stops AA from doing C-checks at JFK or PS checks in Tulsa. I didn't say the Union was driving anything over there, the point is they are adding work despite what you claim is their inferior language and much better compensation, and the work they are adding will be at premium rates, not OSM rates.
 
 
 
Sure, because by the time that happened, AA, Delta, US, NWA and UAL had dumped thousands of mechanics on the unemployment lines and the AARs and TIMCO's had all the labor they needed, UA could do it then, what they couldn't do was establish an OSM program that made up 20% of the OH workforce like AA had without ever going BK, AA cant, they admitted during negotiations that capacity was tight with narrow-body OH. they could not have outsourced all of it even if they wanted to, but instead we not only gave concessions that brought our rates closer to the MRO,s but gave them the language to take advantage of any ramped up capacity down the road at their leisure.
 
 
That's your position not mine. 514 members have seniority and the right to bump, just like the members of 530 had, just like the guys in AFW had, just like the mechanics at BDL  had when they closed that station and scores of others through the years, were they all second class members since we didn't do whatever it took to keep those stations staffed? this is the airline industry, nobody ever said to expect to never get laid off . Why is it that you claim that everyone everywhere else has to live under a set of rules where Tulsa must be preserved at ANY cost to everybody else? Nobody anywhere else gets or expects such selfless sacrifices. If AA chooses to close Tulsa they will, no matter what we give up, but with people like you around all they have to do is threaten it and you will give them anything they want, except of course, IIRC, dues checkoff, that you would strike for.
 
 
 
Fact is you voted to increase the amount AA could outsource, and you voted away system protection as well.  Spin spin spin but the truth is plain to see, are the places where they send their 777s much different than the places we send ours? You voted to give AA everything they wanted, they didn't want more than they got, they got more than they even asked for, even Burdette looked puzzled when Don came out with his 35% total spend offer.  Don changed it from 45% billable man-hours to 35% total spend (subject to exclusions) which can easily be a lot more than 45% of hours if they ship it all overseas which our contract allows, and like you, he spun it as a gain for us.  How many times have you blasted the mechanics at SWA for allowing a limited number of planes to go overseas only to see you vote to allow all AA's outsourced work to go overseas? The fact is that the 'caps" gave AA more than what they felt they could exploit in the current market, winning language for even more would have been pointless because they would not be able to take advantage of it, if we had agreed to 90% of total spend our headcount today would be no different than it is now but throw out a number that looks lower, even though its measuring something differently and let people like you make the argument that other concessions were a worthwhile expense for that lower number. In other words pay for something that we would have kept anyway.
 
  The two hangars that UAL are building in EWR and IAD will be staffed with A&P mechanics, all line mechanics are A&Ps, but you want to drive work to the bases away from the line where they can do the work with unlicensed OSMs, and all the licensed A&Ps should be willing to give even more concessions to make that happen right? 
 
One thing I will give the guys at UAL credit for is that their language says they have to keep the larger narrow-body fleet in the US, unlike ours where when the Airbus fleet comes of age there is nothing stopping AA from sending AA narrow-body planes to the same places you are talking about, and as you yourself have admitted the mid term wage adjustment will allow them to ship a LOT more billable hours out, more than the 45% cap on hours would have allowed.
 
Speaking of Don, is he back to work? One would think that he would be eager to dive right back in there and work under the deal he crafted right?

He was at DWH a couple of months ago with his flunky Vanderloo.He had informed some people that he had a knee replacement. Shortly after that he got his ass booted from the int and went out on long term disability. My question is he getting his LTD on his int salary or mechanics salary?

 

[767 mechanic]

I stated what management is looking for. Yes unions should look to get the majority to pass a contract. Passing by a wide margin would mean the union got a good deal. 
 
No that's not what I am saying. I said new aircraft like the 787 do not follow the traditional split in what is base or line work. I am doing a simple comparison of how many AO lines we have compared to AA. Under the TWU CBA we have almost ten times as much AO work in-house even after BK. (AA over 30 lines of AO and MOD compared to UA 3 lines at SFO)


Capacity was tight in TUL? I heard that was due to the lines running over on span time.
 
I get vilified for standing up for OH. Many people on this blog advocate outsourcing overhaul because that's what all the other airlines do. You know, the airlines represented by the IBT and AMFA.
 
I did state the SWA allowed work to go to El Salvador. I was pointing out how a supposedly strong union - AMFA - was unable to prevent work from being outsourced to a foreign country when the company was making money hand over fist. Where was the strike?
 
I don't want to push work the base or the line. I want it kept in-house. The work UA will be doing in IAD and EWR would not be done in a TUL environment. The 787 won't hit the base for 12 years at any airline. So no I am not advocating line give up concessions to drive that work to the base because it would never be done at the base.
 
Well under the 35% spend rule you could get a 30% raise and reduce outsourcing if you can do the work more efficiently in-house. Lower cost labor can be achieved with higher wages if those people are more productive.
 
I haven't seen him at work either. I'm sure Peterson can find out since he is based here to.

You are such a liar. One time you say that AA has over 30 lines of heavy maintenance and the next you say AA has over 30 lines of AO and mod lines and neither one is true. Remember when you were trying to tell people that DWH had 6 lines of heavy maintenance?????? That was a lie also DWH has no AO work. Even if it were true the mechanics there would have to be considered super mechanics considering that there is onlyabout 215 mechanics there. You and 700 should get together you are exactly the same industrial liars.

 

[Deleted member 14439]

173 AMTs at good old DWH. It`s far from being AO despite whatever twu clown agreed to. DWH is just and extension of the DFW hangars with the exception that we are paid less.

 

[2ndGENAMT]

I stated what management is looking for. Yes unions should look to get the majority to pass a contract. Passing by a wide margin would mean the union got a good deal. 
 
No that's not what I am saying. I said new aircraft like the 787 do not follow the traditional split in what is base or line work. I am doing a simple comparison of how many AO lines we have compared to AA. Under the TWU CBA we have almost ten times as much AO work in-house even after BK. (AA over 30 lines of AO and MOD compared to UA 3 lines at SFO)
 
Capacity was tight in TUL? I heard that was due to the lines running over on span time.
 
I get vilified for standing up for OH. Many people on this blog advocate outsourcing overhaul because that's what all the other airlines do. You know, the airlines represented by the IBT and AMFA.
 
I did state the SWA allowed work to go to El Salvador. I was pointing out how a supposedly strong union - AMFA - was unable to prevent work from being outsourced to a foreign country when the company was making money hand over fist. Where was the strike?
 
I don't want to push work the base or the line. I want it kept in-house. The work UA will be doing in IAD and EWR would not be done in a TUL environment. The 787 won't hit the base for 12 years at any airline. So no I am not advocating line give up concessions to drive that work to the base because it would never be done at the base.
 
Well under the 35% spend rule you could get a 30% raise and reduce outsourcing if you can do the work more efficiently in-house. Lower cost labor can be achieved with higher wages if those people are more productive.
 
I haven't seen him at work either. I'm sure Peterson can find out since he is based here to.

Capacity was tight in TUL? I heard that was due to the lines running over on span time.

I believe Bob was referring to MRO capacity being tight which was our way of possibly getting a better deal in BK, he tried to get this info out to everyone, but the TWU Fear Machine was to strong and the International shoved another contract down our throats and a lot of the Yes voters in TULE will see the results in the next few years.....

 

[OldGuy@AA]

173 AMTs at good old DWH. It`s far from being AO despite whatever twu clown agreed to. DWH is just and extension of the DFW hangars with the exception that we are paid less.

And the DFW hangars do less invasive work than the hangars in Tulsa but we are considered inferior mechanics. I would like to know if the DWH guys have to take the line test to go to DFW? Does anyone know? If you don't then you are considered line qualified and you should not be paid less.

 

[Deleted member 14439]

DWH is considered "base maintenance". So yes if we were to transfer, somehow, to DFW we would have to have a A-25 test. I took my A-25 test as AFW was shutting down.

 

[Overspeed]

You are such a liar. One time you say that AA has over 30 lines of heavy maintenance and the next you say AA has over 30 lines of AO and mod lines and neither one is true. Remember when you were trying to tell people that DWH had 6 lines of heavy maintenance?????? That was a lie also DWH has no AO work. Even if it were true the mechanics there would have to be considered super mechanics considering that there is onlyabout 215 mechanics there. You and 700 should get together you are exactly the same industrial liars.

 
Arguing semantics. Mods are considered part of overhaul.
 
They do special visits and drop ins which are also considered overhaul.

 

[dfw gen]

 
Arguing semantics. Mods are considered part of overhaul.your ab idiot.
 
They do special visits and drop ins which are also considered overhaul.

 

[Bob Owens]

 
 
No that's not what I am saying. I said new aircraft like the 787 do not follow the traditional split in what is base or line work. I am doing a simple comparison of how many AO lines we have compared to AA. Under the TWU CBA we have almost ten times as much AO work in-house even after BK. (AA over 30 lines of AO and MOD compared to UA 3 lines at SFO)

Isnt it true that at other carriers that even old aircraft dont follow what you call a "traditional split in what is base or line work"? Dont Delta, UAL and SWA all do some Overhaul and some Mod work? You just admitted to at least 3 lines in SFO after you have repreatedly calimed they dont do any Overhaul.
 
 

Capacity was tight in TUL?
 

Spin away, never said that, siad that the company claimed that capacity was tight in Narrowbody overhaul in the MRO market. It would have been difficult for AA to outsource their MD-80 fleet.
 

I get vilified for standing up for OH. Many people on this blog advocate outsourcing overhaul because that's what all the other airlines do.
 

Wrong, you get vilified for parroting the company and advocating for concessions. Very few here have advocated for Outsourcing. You have claimed that we have no choice we have to accept one or the other of the terms the company proposes and we cant fight against both. AA would not have been able to outsource the Narrowbody fleet even if they wanted to, but what other threats did they have? NOTHING, so you have done everything you can to get them what they really wanted, what every unscrupoloys employer really wanted-the lowest wages in the industry. Thats why you are vilified, and desrevedly so because you claim you are one of us yet you help the company screw us.
 
 

I did state the SWA allowed work to go to El Salvador. I was pointing out how a supposedly strong union - AMFA - was unable to prevent work from being outsourced to a foreign country when the company was making money hand over fist. Where was the strike?

So let me ask tou this, you expected them to strike over work that they never did? You voted for a deal that would allow AA to send an unlimited amount of outsourced work overseas, along with the lowest wages in the industry. the worst work rules in the industry, the least vacation, Holidays, Sick time, worst 401k, and no retiree medical but you want to know why the mechanics at SWA accepted the highest wages in the Industry, with the most Vaction, Holidays, a generous sick time alowance where less than 10 years perfect attendance would cover retiree medical from age 55 in exchange for limited overseas outsourcing and you want to know why they didnt strike to prevent that limited portion of the work that was always outsourced anyway from going overseas? Are you for real?
 
 
 

I don't want to push work the base or the line. I want it kept in-house. The work UA will be doing in IAD and EWR would not be done in a TUL environment.
 

So now you are admitting that building hangars in EWR and IAD is good news for A&Ps?
 

Well under the 35% spend rule you could get a 30% raise and reduce outsourcing if you can do the work more efficiently in-house. Lower cost labor can be achieved with higher wages if those people are more productive.
 

Sure, but the fact remains that the "30% raise" you speak of  would allow the company to outsource even more jobs.
 
Your supposition regarding doing work efficiently would be true even if we had not given up System Protection and the language we had before along with accepting the lowest wage, the least Vacation, sick time,  Holidays and the only ones who work the few holidays they do recognize for half pay. In fact our arguement has been that higher wages at AA are offset by higher productivity and savings in the operation as a whole. You, and FWAAA, E and others on the Pro-concessions side never supported that position, and would cite that the numbers do not support it, leaving out the fact that the numbers dont tell the whole story because the age and hours of our aircraft where not taken into account. You have repeatedly insisted that concessions were the only option available to save jobs and continue with that platform to the present.

 

[Bob Owens]

 
Arguing semantics. Mods are considered part of overhaul.
 
They do special visits and drop ins which are also considered overhaul.

So Mods, Special Visits and drop ins are considered overhaul when they do them at other carriers as well?

 

[Overspeed]

Isnt it true that at other carriers that even old aircraft dont follow what you call a "traditional split in what is base or line work"? Dont Delta, UAL and SWA all do some Overhaul and some Mod work? You just admitted to at least 3 lines in SFO after you have repreatedly calimed they dont do any Overhaul.
 
 

Spin away, never said that, siad that the company claimed that capacity was tight in Narrowbody overhaul in the MRO market. It would have been difficult for AA to outsource their MD-80 fleet.
 

Wrong, you get vilified for parroting the company and advocating for concessions. Very few here have advocated for Outsourcing. You have claimed that we have no choice we have to accept one or the other of the terms the company proposes and we cant fight against both. AA would not have been able to outsource the Narrowbody fleet even if they wanted to, but what other threats did they have? NOTHING, so you have done everything you can to get them what they really wanted, what every unscrupoloys employer really wanted-the lowest wages in the industry. Thats why you are vilified, and desrevedly so because you claim you are one of us yet you help the company screw us.
 
 

So let me ask tou this, you expected them to strike over work that they never did? You voted for a deal that would allow AA to send an unlimited amount of outsourced work overseas, along with the lowest wages in the industry. the worst work rules in the industry, the least vacation, Holidays, Sick time, worst 401k, and no retiree medical but you want to know why the mechanics at SWA accepted the highest wages in the Industry, with the most Vaction, Holidays, a generous sick time alowance where less than 10 years perfect attendance would cover retiree medical from age 55 in exchange for limited overseas outsourcing and you want to know why they didnt strike to prevent that limited portion of the work that was always outsourced anyway from going overseas? Are you for real?
 
 
 

So now you are admitting that building hangars in EWR and IAD is good news for A&Ps?
 

Sure, but the fact remains that the "30% raise" you speak of  would allow the company to outsource even more jobs.
 
Your supposition regarding doing work efficiently would be true even if we had not given up System Protection and the language we had before along with accepting the lowest wage, the least Vacation, sick time,  Holidays and the only ones who work the few holidays they do recognize for half pay. In fact our arguement has been that higher wages at AA are offset by higher productivity and savings in the operation as a whole. You, and FWAAA, E and others on the Pro-concessions side never supported that position, and would cite that the numbers do not support it, leaving out the fact that the numbers dont tell the whole story because the age and hours of our aircraft where not taken into account. You have repeatedly insisted that concessions were the only option available to save jobs and continue with that platform to the present.

Re-read my posts. I said UA does engines, components, and three lines of overhaul per their contract.

Maintenance programs are driven by the certificate holder in how they comply with OEMs MPD

AA wasn't looking to outsource their NBs, it was the WBs.

Bob if the TWU calls a strike I'll walk. Let me know when that is going to happen.

I'm not asking AMFA to strike. I'm asking them to show us how powerful they are and stop any further work from being outsourced. They didn't stop it at AS or NWA did they?

Anytime work is done by Domestic mechanics that's good. But keep in mind Bob, the work they will be doing is 50% fewer man hours than the aircraft it replaces. UA needs to add two times the number of 787s to maintain current head count. It's not new work, it's 50% less work.

No it would not unless you do the work slower less efficiently. If we turn aircraft faster with fewer labor hours and less material waste in house we lower internal costs. So if the in house cost goes down, then AA can outsource less work. Do the job slower and less efficient in house than AA does have justification to outsource more. It's math.

All the good items you talk about want as well. The TWU was at the bargaining table with basically the same presidents talking since 2008. I dont have faith in you or any other of your cohorts to make the situation better. Your plan is to strike and bring the company to its knees, we are now too big to strike. I doubt the NMB will ever let an airline walk again. We need a better plan than the one you are offering.

 

[Overspeed]

So Mods, Special Visits and drop ins are considered overhaul when they do them at other carriers as well?

A winglet mod yes, pulling and collaring a CB and placing a deactivated sticker no.

Drop ins to fix a hole where a belt loader punched through yes.

Special visits where they do stacks of ECOs yes.