Ua Seeks 6 Month Extension For Reorg

[UAL_TECH]

ual747mech, The Ronin,

United Airlines

September 5, 2001

This was the last printed timetable United ever produced. 6 days after this was published, the Terrorist Attacks of 9/11 changed the world and the industry. United’s problems are well known but the most incredible example of the fall of this proud airline, that was once the beacon of stability in the industry was the $2 billion dollars it lost in 2002. Capacity has been diminished by 30% from it’s peak with significant cuts everywhere. United is now in Chapter 11 bankruptcy with it’s survival chances 50/50 at best. Even during this trying time, United’s valiant employees have returned it to excellent operational performance. Let’s hope United’s 75th Anniversary, isn’t its last and that the skies are friendly once again.

Let us not bicker amongst ourselves.
Keep your head's as we are going to need it in the not so distant future.

What is - 'IS'
What was -WAS (Can't change the past but we can 'LEARN' from it!!!)
What will be - 'IS AS WE MAKE IT!!!'

JMHO,

Take Care,
UAL_TECH

 

[Doc]

Comments like this show how little you really know about the airline business.

First of all, did it ever occur to you that the new labor contracts have the LCO cost structure built into them. It has nothing to do with LCO employees making the same as mainline. If anything, now mainline employees makes as little as the LCO employees. You've got it backwards. Not only are the LCO costs low, but the company now also has the same cost advantage on much of the mainline.

Secondly, it is the work rules that will make the LCO effective, not the pay rates of employees. Shuttle never had even close to the cost structure that the LCO will have. Plus it will be opeated much differently than before.

And by the way, Shuttle was successful competeing with SWA at first. It wasn't until our old management used Shuttle to feed the hub instead of compete on point to point that things started to go south.

LCO will be a completely different approach than Shuttle. Comparing them is apples and oranges.

The second most highest cost of and airline is the employee it's right behind fuel. If you haven't noticed U has screwed it's employees for the RJ express employees make slave wages and if I'm not mistaken LUV don't do well either their f/a's are fighting there contract because their company is making money and they see everybody else making more. A LCC cannot compete in this environment unless their bottom line is in line with everybody else etc…..JBLUE,LUV,U express …..I just hope it works but as I said before you have tried it before …..

By the way what are the LCO cost structures built in what are the pay rates mainline vs. LCO
I wonder what LUV JBLUE and other LCC start at and top out at I don’t claim to know all the cost structure but it would be interesting to compare to see how close they all are …..Remember pilots pay rates are the first on the list when trying to get a low cost operation then move down the line U has seemed to have squeezed every last drop from there pilots flying express go ask one of them ……….I’ll wait and see good luck…………..


:cold:

 

[The Ronin]

There's probabaly a tad more to it than just wages. Granted, our pilots as in the infamous words of Mr Dubinsky"wring the golden goose by the neck until we get every last egg out of it" or something to that effect, basically put a torpedo into the Titanic after she hit the iceberg. I don't know what they and the company are up to or what they've agreed to, nor does very many people. I will tell you this, as a mechanic, I earn roughly $30/hr. I talked to JetBlue and "based on experience" for my union loving brothers who hate that kind of talk, they offered $29/hr if you had Airbus experience. LUV tops their guys at around $37/hr. AMR slaughtered their people and they aren't even in BK with rates varing in the $20's/hr. Yes we have more mechanics, but we have more planes. Yes we are still paying top pay for unskilled work but that is being rectified as with the latest backshop closure's and layoff's. There are as probably as many factores in regards to cost in this business as there are stars and I surely don't understand any of it. But some are landing fees for where you operate, equipement costs and leases, equipement utilization (aircraft on the ground don't make any money), how many management types can you stuff in a phone booth, you know stuff like that. I don't know how sucessful or unsucessful this LCC is going to be. You are right, it didn't work that well before. My job is to keep them up, regardless of what paint scheme or great "plan" our management and glorious aviators have. I hope someone has one and I hope it works. I will do my best to make sure that they have the equipment ready when they need it.

 

[The Ronin]

Pardon my spelling and poor grammar skills, I am just a mechanic afterall

 

[767jetz]

Once again doc, you are taking on an over simplified view of the airline business.

As I and several others have tried to point out to you, there are MANY, MANY, MANY variables that affect the cost of an operation. Employee costs are just one of them, and pilot costs are just a percentage of that. You seem to like to zero in on pilot wages, while you don't seem to understand the big picture.

Let me try to put this in over simplified terms that you might understand. If you compare 50 cost items of 2 companies, some of those items will be more expensive at one airline, some will be more expensive at the other. If you average them out, the company who pays their employees more could very well still have the lower total cost. Try to think of economy of scale. People save money by shopping at a Costco for example because they are buying in bulk. There are advantages to being as big as UA. Lease costs in BK can be DRAMATICALLY reduced compared to deals made outside of BK. etc. etc. etc...

I will repeat this once again for those that just aren't getting it. There is no difference in employee pay from mainline and LCO. For example, pilots flying the 737 or the Airbus make "x" dollars. It doesn't matter what name is on the side of the airplane or how many seats are in the plane. In other words the pay is just as low for mainline as LCO.

The new LCO will be nothing like Shuttle. Period. The end. And here's a little hint for you... Don't be suprised if you find out one day down the road that the LCO cost (CASM) is LOWER than Frontier.

 

[atabuy]

The Ronin Posted on Sep 20 2003, 08:20 PM Pretty theatrical but you get the point. All aside, you've gotta have an out. I'm about as positioned as I'll ever be if this boat sinks...and I gotta admit...that's a good feeling.

You see Ronin,
That statement says way too much about your attitude and the way you see Ual.
You really don't care about your union brothers surviving in the industry, because you already have your lifeboat in the water with one foot in it.

You really should jump in the boat and give the ones that are left a chance to save themselves by trying to turn the attittudes and Ual around. If you are this outspoken on a website how are you at work? Do you instill a work ethic and high morale, or just beat the war drum against the company all day, and bring the morale down.

It takes every one rowing in the same direction to keep from going in circles..

Just an observation from your posts.

 

[The Ronin]

Jim, what is it? Won't anybody else talk to you on this site? I'm am sure we are pretty boring to the rest of the group here going back and forth with who is better than who, who knows more than who, etc. We are totally different people with different ideologies. I work for a bankrupt company that has laid of more that 40% of my rank and file. We have no exit financing as of yet nor have any idea what the future holds. Any pension I had is probably gone and my future here is uncertain at best. Would it not be prudent to prepare myself in the event things happen beyond my control? Is it not my responsiblilty to my family to try and provide some other means of future security for them. And yes Jim, right now I am making about as much money on the "outside" as here. I feel good though a little tired, and my family feels good, about ourselves and our future. Why should I regret that? I have worked all night and now after a little breakfest I'm heading to my shop. We are booked solid again this week. Have a good day Jim

 

[ual747mech]

Jim, what is it? Won't anybody else talk to you on this site? I'm am sure we are pretty boring to the rest of the group here going back and forth with who is better than who, who knows more than who, etc. We are totally different people with different ideologies. I work for a bankrupt company that has laid of more that 40% of my rank and file. We have no exit financing as of yet nor have any idea what the future holds. Any pension I had is probably gone and my future here is uncertain at best. Would it not be prudent to prepare myself in the event things happen beyond my control? Is it not my responsiblilty to my family to try and provide some other means of future security for them. And yes Jim, right now I am making about as much money on the "outside" as here. I feel good though a little tired, and my family feels good, about ourselves and our future. Why should I regret that? I have worked all night and now after a little breakfest I'm heading to my shop. We are booked solid again this week. Have a good day Jim

Ronin,

With all due respect you need to change your attitude. I agree with Jim, you have a selfish attitude. You slam the back shop folks, calling them unskilled. You don't like the idea that they can bump your so called skilled friends just because they have less seniority. You don't like the new guys because they don't know what they are doing, it's funny. I bet you didn't know what you were doing when you first got there, you had to learn the rope just like the new guy. Or is it because you just don't like teaching what you know to the new guy? That's called egotism Ronin and I ran into a lot of those in my time here at UA.

And btw, I just don't go with the flow. I like to work smart and I thought trying to save the company from bankruptcy was the smart thing to do because it was going to be worse in bankruptcy for the employees and the company which you're finding out by now. You see, the deal was to have every employee group ratify the recovery plan in order for us to have a shot at the ATSB loan but like you said you just vote "no" on everything so what's the point of telling you. Did you know that Or is it because you don't give a s**t about the consequencies. Anyway, that's all moot now because the ATSB wasn't going to approve the loan guarantees but the fact that weren't going to try tells me a lot about how much you know. Btw, do you have any friends or know someone that has filed for bankruptcy? They're getting a lot of their debts excused from the creditors aren't they? Well that's what United is doing to their creditors and their employees now that they are in bankruptcy aren't they? So don't tell me I don't like to rock the boat because I'll be the first one to do it but let's look at the consequencies before we do it!. So work safe(smart) because I don't want you getting injured(suffer more wage cuts) on the job, if you know what I mean..

 

[The Ronin]

I'll tell you what I don't like. I don't like a person who takes the easy road. Sits on their butt doing some mundane job for a full tech wage, takes no pride nor initative in their trade or skill. Has neither learned anything nor attempted to do so and now because this "fine union brother" has been here contributing for oh so long, he stumbles out 15yrs later and knocks out a guy who worked hard getting into the trenches, fought hard in the trenches, and this is his reward. Yes, it is obvious, I DO NOT LIKE SYSTEM. To me, your EARN your stripes, they are not given. And BTW, its not about knowing everything, because if you know anything about our trade, it's the fact of how much you don't know. Thats where the drive comes from each and everyday, to be better than you were the day before. I'm sorry, but this company has been about having your cake and eating it too for as long as I've been here. That isn't reality on the outside, and yes, there is a part of me who would like to see everyone cast into the sea. Now sink or swim buddy....can you make it....I know guys who can and more, and I know a whole lot more that don't have a lords prayer. Call it a hard, bitter attitude...but I learned that too...here at the lazy U!!!

 

[atabuy]

Call it a hard, bitter attitude...but I learned that too...here at the lazy U!!!

This is the answer why Ual wants to outsource work.
If you think you don't like the system, how do you think management does?
If they don't get a full day of quality work out of every employee, they are losing money.

Don't forget, the same system that you don't like made you a lead. Are there others with less seniority more qualified to do your job. Will you step down and let the more qualified person have the job. I think not.

Maybe there are changes needed to make all employees accountable. You need to do that within the union. Get envolved in changing the rules.

Maybe recurrent training and testing are needed to make sure every employee can accomplish the work with skills they have learned. Pass on your knowledge to others who have never seen certain problems.

I worked with a group that thought knowledge was power. They would never reveal how they fixed certain problems. That was their little power game. It would have helped the whole group out, but human nature is a tricky thing.
It is really funny how little minds work sometimes. :blink:
I am not saying you do. I think your attitude is from frustration.

 

[The Ronin]

Sorry for the distraction I have caused on this post. I will not post any further items under this thread.

 

[UAL_TECH]

This is the answer why Ual wants to outsource work.
If you think you don't like the system, how do you think management does?
If they don't get a full day of quality work out of every employee, they are losing money.

Don't forget, the same system that you don't like made you a lead. Are there others with less seniority more qualified to do your job. Will you step down and let the more qualified person have the job. I think not.

Maybe there are changes needed to make all employees accountable. You need to do that within the union. Get envolved in changing the rules.

Maybe recurrent training and testing are needed to make sure every employee can accomplish the work with skills they have learned. Pass on your knowledge to others who have never seen certain problems.

I worked with a group that thought knowledge was power. They would never reveal how they fixed certain problems. That was their little power game. It would have helped the whole group out, but human nature is a tricky thing.
It is really funny how little minds work sometimes. :blink:
I am not saying you do. I think your attitude is from frustration.

Jim,

JMHO, your are detached from the current situation and thinking.

I have not debated ‘The Ronin’ on this point as (IMHO) his point has merit, and it is valid.

Your ideology is flawed in thinking that people that post on this BB are posting out of fear and/or frustration.

JMHO, the people who take the time, thought, and effort to continuously post/refute ideas, and frustrations are the very heart of our intellectual work force.

If we did not care (as you incessantly propose) then what the hell do you think we are doing?

The last I looked, I did not receive a check for ‘Good Post’ from internet BB’s.


UT

 

[atabuy]

Jim,
JMHO, your are detached from the current situation and thinking.
I have not debated ‘The Ronin’ on this point as (IMHO) his point has merit, and it is valid.
Your ideology is flawed in thinking that people that post on this BB are posting out of fear and/or frustration.
JMHO, the people who take the time, thought, and effort to continuously post/refute ideas, and frustrations are the very heart of our intellectual work force.
If we did not care (as you incessantly propose) then what the hell do you think we are doing?
The last I looked, I did not receive a check for ‘Good Post’ from internet BB’s.
shock.gif UT

UT,
Many things have happened at Ual which we had no part in, and in some things we did.
I refute some of the posts here because, from my point of view, they are flawed.
We all have opinions, and my opinion is:
#### happens; the important thing is to get over it and try to make the airline work.

Pilots had a wake up call. They realized if the company went out of business, they would be starting from scratch. A 777 pilot, to young to retire, might be flying a 737 for another carrier, at 1/4 of his wage. If he was lucky enough to get the job.

I heard many mechanics who said they wanted to see Ual go out of business. They could always get a job on the outside making the same money. They never got the same wake up call as the pilots. Thought the company was hiding money and were not in financial problems. All stupid and not realistic reasons.

Some posted full pay until the last day. Are these the intellects you speak of? And the ones who care.

I know many employees care about the company and their jobs there. I question attitudes sometimes with some of the posters here.

I have always stressed co-operation with the company. I don't believe they always know what their doing, but we have to work with them to change.
This is where I think frustration comes in.
The airline business is a tough market. We compete with leaner airlines who can adapt quickly to change. Ual is a big ship that is hard to steer.
IMHO, Ual will never compete in a slow market. Even with all the changes.
They will do good when the economy is good. I just don't think they have the ideas to change.

Even with all the cost reductions, lay-offs are still happening. The only way they can increase profits is to change the labor costs. Outsourcing, lay-offs, ect.

We just have to wait for better times, if they cannot adapt.
Good luck to you all.
We need it bad.

 

[UAL_TECH]

Jim,

Not being a ‘youngster’ here at the ‘Lazy U’, I respect and appreciate your posts. However (JMHO) you do not have insight into what the ‘real’ problem is. Our biggest hurdle is to overcome our ‘internal politics’ and ‘lack of accountability’. Having worked some years in management positions, I can attest to this on a first hand basis.

No one is accountable!!!
Our processes are so diffused and scattered amongst ‘groups’ that deflection of individual accountability is the ‘norm’. However ‘WE’ are the fodder for the deflection. Mainly, because ‘WE’ are an ‘easy’ target (not being included in the decision making process but being the major factor in the “theoretical†outcome makes us easy prey for decision makers to deflect blame for ‘THEIR FAILURE’ and are therefore not accountable for their actions).

When a ‘Manager’ writes a review exclusively on the information provided from the individual being reviewed based on their ‘one liners’ (from the individual under review). The ‘Manager’ has ‘NO CLUE’ as to the substance of the verbose but articulate self pomposity of their acclamations.

Management verification is not required (nor appreciated).

So, when you interject your discontent with your fellow workers, keep these truths in your heart.

Been There, Done That………

UT

BTW:
My Midwestern work ethic has worked against me here at the 'Lazy U'.
Being asked what I think, I always tell them the truth rather than what they want to hear.