Tulsa To The Rescue..... BUT WHY?

[Buck]

If what you say about Bob Owens is true (I will assume it is since I personally do not know the man) maybe he should be our NEW UNION president.

The problem with AMP is it's preexisting therefore not accountable to AMR employees specifically. I think we should consider a UNION of ONLY AMR employees. I am for a multi membership type UNION not just the mechanics. I understand why you as a mechanic might prefer this, however, it would be more strategic to control all the parts of the airline business we can. These multiple contracts are part of our problem.

I understand many Mechanics feel this would result in a robbing Peter to pay Paul scenario. I believe contract language can solve this problem. For instance we could do an across the board minimum percentage (as in we demand a 5 percent minimum cost of living raise per contract for instance), any percentage over that would reflect supply and demand (which would work to your favor more than FSC's because we do not require a license). Another way we could do it is a multiplier (Any job requiring a license makes 2X what unskilled labor makes example FSC 21.16 A&P 42.32 ). Another way to attack the problem is license premiums.

It would be difficult at best to flourish controlling only one part of the business. It would also make you more prone to being farmed out.

Bob may be the perfect choice to lead us in a NEW UNION. We need experienced people after all.

We need to get rid of these international clowns.

Another thing we should look at is title experience. I know someone that STARTED at AMR with an A&P as Title 3. He has less than one year Title 1 now after 11 years with the company. Unfortunately after a few years of "being stuck" it is very difficult to move anywhere and start your time all over. We should keep things as is for the old guard but any new guard should all have only ONE seniority date.

Could you clarify AMP's preexisting status.

On your example of a 2x mulltiplier, if the mechanics wage goes up due to supply and demand and there are to many FSC's, will the FSC get a raise to maintain the multiplier?

 

[Buck]

Buck what part do you disagree with specifically?

I disagree that this is a new situation. The company has been in this very situation several times and yet here we are wondering why TUL goes on the field trip's when it seems obvious that the company is killing us at the negotiations tablebut will ask for more. What happens at the next storm? The same thing.

 

[strikeforce]

I think we are getting a little of track. The purpose of the post was to show why we are in the trouble we are in. We have sent a message to management.

The message is:

"You can do whatever you want and we will still deliver. There is no consequence for cheating us."

You prove to the company that you have no self worth for your profession when you let them cheat you with little or no consequences.

They are robbing the bank and we fixed their getaway car.

You keep saying the government should fix this, the UNION should fix that. How about a little self help by not doing stupid?

Union members keep depending on others to fix things. How is that working out for us so far?

The TWU = Control. I am sure that is not how it started out but, that's what it is today. The TWU is there to keep you in this passive state your in. The TWU is there to keep you dependent on a UNION that will never deliver. You want to save your profession? Get the TWU out. Don't go with AMP or AMFA. It is the same trap. We need a union with OUR employees running it. Not some untouchables in international that are prone to payoffs.

I find it offensive that people attack Bob Owens because they are unhappy with the UNION then go bail AMR out with field trips to DFW.

You see how stupid this is right?

SELF HELP

I don't think we got off track. The problems we are currently encountering will continue with an independent union of employees. AMT's are not professional negotiators. WE should stick to repairing airplanes. I mean, why don't our guys play lawyer and go argue in the BK court.......who's knows our job better than WE do, right? It's not about knowing our job....it's about learning how to gain leverage against a $24B company that employs numerous lawyers, consultants, economists, and employee relations people that have bamboozled and raped us over 9 years and are looking to continue for the next 6 years. I pay the TWU to represent me at the table.....I didn't agree to pay them so they can keep me in the dark, provide me with lousy representation, allow members to undercut each other, allow our own members to act as supervisors and go fix AA airplanes in the enemies hangar and get away with it, and diminish my purchasing power.
the point of this thread is to expose our internal failures as a membership. There's NO internal controls. and, there's no internal controls because the people at the top of the INTL don't care, and at the local level, our leaders expect the same undercutting fools to police themselves. It's not going to happen.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Could you clarify AMP's preexisting status.

On your example of a 2x mulltiplier, if the mechanics wage goes up due to supply and demand and there are to many FSC's, will the FSC get a raise to maintain the multiplier?

AMP from my understanding is a multi airline mechanics only union. I would prefer a UNION that is AMR only.

No. Those were 2 separate scenarios (multiplier and minimum percentage plus a cost of living raise). Also, please note, that was not a suggestion just an idea. I was using the "throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks" method. I have no legal training in contracts but I am sure someone that is trained or has experience at such things could work out a solution. If there are too many FSC they should lay some off. That multiplier should work off of a minimum staffing of manpower per aircraft equation.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Buck I never said this was a new situation. I am a little confused by that statement. I only implied we need a new UNION. UNIONS by their very nature fail after a time. You have to throw out the trash (international) and reset the clock every once in a while.

Strikeforce I know the point of the thread. I started it remember?

You say your mechanics not lawyers or negotiators. I agree. We don't have to have those skills. We only need to control the money that PAYS for those skills, and right now, we don't.

You did not agree to pay TWU for anything. It was a mandatory requirement for your employment.

You hit the nail on the head. International is expected to police themselves and they don't. Thats why we need people WE as employees can police. That is what I have been saying since this thread started. So we agree right?

 

[aapitbull]

AMP from my understanding is a multi airline mechanics only union. I would prefer a UNION that is AMR only. No. Those were 2 separate scenarios (multiplier and minimum percentage plus a cost of living raise). Also, please note, that was not a suggestion just an idea. I was using the "throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks" method. I have no legal training in contracts but I am sure someone that is trained or has experience at such things could work out a solution. If there are too many FSC they should lay some off. That multiplier should work off of a minimum staffing of manpower per aircraft equation.

As AMP is structured today it would be for AA only, as any democratc union it would be up to the members if we wanted to expand we could but only if the members changed the consttitution.

And to follow up right now we would not seek to represent the A/E guys.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Do you consider AE mechanics "brothers of the trade"? Talk about a loaded question. Do they deserve to make less? After all, they went to school, they are licensed? They have to process the same federal safety paperwork. Should they be brought up to AMR specs?

If they are there would be layoffs to be sure.

If they are not then AMR will alway try to engineer it to where they are working on AA aircraft.

Which is worse?

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Thank you for the clarification aapitbull.

 

[aapitbull]

Thank you for the clarification aapitbull.

I case anyone doesn't know the AMP constitution is borrowed from the APA {American Pilots} the thought was to use it as a guide to build our own independent union at AA for the Mechanics, we even hired the same law firm that helped the APA breakaway from ALPA back in 1963.

 

[Buck]

Do you consider AE mechanics "brothers of the trade"? Talk about a loaded question. Do they deserve to make less? After all, they went to school, they are licensed? They have to process the same federal safety paperwork. Should they be brought up to AMR specs?

If they are there would be layoffs to be sure.

If they are not then AMR will alway try to engineer it to where they are working on AA aircraft.

Which is worse?

AE Mechanics are brothers of the trade, but are not treated so by the TWU or the company. They have their own contract but TWU representation.

It is similar with the pilots in that they are brothers of the trade but are paid differently.

 

[Flying low]

AMP from my understanding is a multi airline mechanics only union. I would prefer a UNION that is AMR only.

No. Those were 2 separate scenarios (multiplier and minimum percentage plus a cost of living raise). Also, please note, that was not a suggestion just an idea. I was using the "throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks" method. I have no legal training in contracts but I am sure someone that is trained or has experience at such things could work out a solution. If there are too many FSC they should lay some off. That multiplier should work off of a minimum staffing of manpower per aircraft equation.

I do believe that AMP was started by several Tulsa based AMT's for AA mechanics and related only. I don't believe it was/is a multi-airline union.

 

[odie01]

I do believe that AMP was started by several Tulsa based AMT's for AA mechanics and related only. I don't believe it was/is a multi-airline union.

That's correct. This Dude should know this, he's been reading this forum since May 2010.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Why should I know that? I am a Fleet Service Clerk. I am sure AMP has been discussed on this forum, however, I don't read every single post. I only read the ones that catch my attention. As a FSC AMP does not really catch my attention.

 

[strikeforce]

Buck I never said this was a new situation. I am a little confused by that statement. I only implied we need a new UNION. UNIONS by their very nature fail after a time. You have to throw out the trash (international) and reset the clock every once in a while.

Strikeforce I know the point of the thread. I started it remember?

You say your mechanics not lawyers or negotiators. I agree. We don't have to have those skills. We only need to control the money that PAYS for those skills, and right now, we don't.

You did not agree to pay TWU for anything. It was a mandatory requirement for your employment.

You hit the nail on the head. International is expected to police themselves and they don't. Thats why we need people WE as employees can police. That is what I have been saying since this thread started. So we agree right?

I pay for representation, both at the field & in negotiartions. The membership should have a right to control the INTL, but unfortunately WE don't have that ability. There's too many contraints that prohibit our ability to control anything. The system protects the people at the top. They're immune to the concessions, so why should they put any effort in fighting on our behalf. If it personally affected Jim Little & his cronies, I could almost guarantee things would be different, but it doesn't. They have very little skin in the game.


The TWU has been a total waste of my money. And, it's getting old listening to Bob Owens and others tell me that I'm at the bottom of the barrel, but take my money anyway, and provide me very little.

 

[Buck]

Why should I know that? I am a Fleet Service Clerk. I am sure AMP has been discussed on this forum, however, I don't read every single post. I only read the ones that catch my attention. As a FSC AMP does not really catch my attention.

As a Fleet Service Clerk, would it not make sense to form your own union without the AFL-CIO?

Possibly a union made up of FSC's from all of the airlines?