Trip Report/Comment--AA JFK-MIA-JFK

[737823]

Josh,

With all due respect, have you written to AA regading this. Your letter has very valid points, and nobody want's a strike, however a letter to AA urging them to negotiate
fairly, with viable improvemts would help. I like working at AA and don't take things from mg out on others, but one thing I know is they (AA) will not give an inch until forced to and that is when, passengers like yourself write with concern of being stranded somewhere, or it's the 11th hour.

I can not speak for my fellow flight attendants, but what I can do is give an honest days work and be pleasant to all around me.

I hope you will take the time to write Mr. Arpey and the BOD.

I have written in before on AA.com and only get the canned form response hogwash from customer service. Perhaps writing directly to Arpey et al would be a good idea. It's unfortunate but it seems AA as a company (management, organizational structure, company culture) is fairly out of touch with their customer needs and uninterested in changing that.

Josh is right about the hard product observations.

TLV? Read up on your history. Israel still wants to hold AA responsible for TWA's obligations when they pulled out of TLV prior to the acquisition closing in 2001. It's also a junk market. Lots of volume, huge security costs, and historically low margins. Not exactly a hot spot for travel from DFW or ORD. Maybe moreso from JFK or MIA, but those markets are pretty well covered by the incumbents.

As they should. I'm well aware of what went on with TWA/AA in Israel. Israeli severance law provides workers one months pay per year of service. Whether this a good law or not is debatable, but its the law of the land. AA obeys the laws and regulations for conducting business in every other county-i.e. in Argentina they are required to operate the flights with foreign based flight attendants. It really saddens me that AA is able to make Venezuela-run by Hugo Chavez work yet their management can't make Tel Aviv a go. I really don't appreciate you calling it a junk market, and must say that DL/CO/US have all been able to make it work profitably. If anyone in that market isn't doing well it's LY but that's a whole other topic. The privatization in 2007 has helped some, but they still have a ways to go. ORD-TLV failed miserably on LY, hopefully UA+CO will have more luck. MIA is aparently slated to come back, but unfortunately Shkedi cancelled the 787 orders which would be a great aircraft for MIA. The route was cancelled due to fuel price run up which made the 767-200ER uncompetitive on the cost side.

If EDI were profitable, you'd see more people flying there. CO makes it work from the oil business perspective, but even BA sees no reason to fly it, and they've got home court advantage... Likewise with OSL and VLC. That's like expecting nonstops to London to Tucson or Indianapolis.

ARN? Made sense in the telecom boom -- Ericsson shipped a lot of switching gear from ARN on AA before they imploded (along with Nortel), but now they've really retreated to mostly the handset market and sold off their switching/infrastructure segment. Doubtful if anyone could make it work today without the FQTV link to SK (Star Alliance).

I don't claim to be an expert, but I'm just making observations as an airline passenger about destinations I frequent. Continental for whatever reason is able to operate profitably to these destinations and continues to outperform AA financially. Clearly other carriers have superior management, strategic planning, cost structures, products and services.

Josh

 

[boston]

I have written in before on AA.com and only get the canned form response hogwash from customer service. Perhaps writing directly to Arpey et al would be a good idea. It's unfortunate but it seems AA as a company (management, organizational structure, company culture) is fairly out of touch with their customer needs and uninterested in changing that.



As they should. I'm well aware of what went on with TWA/AA in Israel. Israeli severance law provides workers one months pay per year of service. Whether this a good law or not is debatable, but its the law of the land. AA obeys the laws and regulations for conducting business in every other county-i.e. in Argentina they are required to operate the flights with foreign based flight attendants. It really saddens me that AA is able to make Venezuela-run by Hugo Chavez work yet their management can't make Tel Aviv a go. I really don't appreciate you calling it a junk market, and must say that DL/CO/US have all been able to make it work profitably. If anyone in that market isn't doing well it's LY but that's a whole other topic. The privatization in 2007 has helped some, but they still have a ways to go. ORD-TLV failed miserably on LY, hopefully UA+CO will have more luck. MIA is aparently slated to come back, but unfortunately Shkedi cancelled the 787 orders which would be a great aircraft for MIA. The route was cancelled due to fuel price run up which made the 767-200ER uncompetitive on the cost side.



I don't claim to be an expert, but I'm just making observations as an airline passenger about destinations I frequent. Continental for whatever reason is able to operate profitably to these destinations and continues to outperform AA financially. Clearly other carriers have superior management, strategic planning, cost structures, products and services.

Josh

Unfortunatly your right about AA not paying attention to their customers, as well as the work force. I have heard the same thing from other people recieving a canned response. I'm sure it's someones job to read these various forums, and you would think they would take into account what is being said. It wasn't until lot's of articles were in the paper yrs back after 2003, about us the flight attendants at AA, did management make an attempt to do something. I don't advocate airing our dirty laundry, but sometimes that's what gets Mr.Arpey et al to budge.

 

[eolesen]

As they should. I'm well aware of what went on with TWA/AA in Israel. Israeli severance law provides workers one months pay per year of service.

Great. AA didn't buy TWA. They bought pieces of the carcass, and offered employment to the remaining employees as of April 2001. TLV wasn't on that list. AA didn't pay any other bills for pre-April 2001 expenses, so explain how AA is liable...

I really don't appreciate you calling it a junk market, and must say that DL/CO/US have all been able to make it work profitably.

Then explain how it isn't a crappy market, Josh. Israel isn't exactly the center of regional banking or commerce in the region, and it's certainly not a connecting hub... Most of the people flying there are tourists or traveling to see family at one end or the other, and that equates to junk yields.

And how do you know it's profitable? Have you worked at all three carriers and have insights into market profitability, or are you just assuming that because they fly there and a few flights are full, it must be profitable?... How much of those full flights are simply frequent flyer redemptions? Airlines have been known to maintain some markets simply to burn mileage liability, and it wouldn't surprise me if that were the case with at least one of those carriers.

 

[jersey777]

I have written in before on AA.com and only get the canned form response hogwash from customer service. Perhaps writing directly to Arpey et al would be a good idea. It's unfortunate but it seems AA as a company (management, organizational structure, company culture) is fairly out of touch with their customer needs and uninterested in changing that.



As they should. I'm well aware of what went on with TWA/AA in Israel. Israeli severance law provides workers one months pay per year of service. Whether this a good law or not is debatable, but its the law of the land. AA obeys the laws and regulations for conducting business in every other county-i.e. in Argentina they are required to operate the flights with foreign based flight attendants. It really saddens me that AA is able to make Venezuela-run by Hugo Chavez work yet their management can't make Tel Aviv a go. I really don't appreciate you calling it a junk market, and must say that DL/CO/US have all been able to make it work profitably. If anyone in that market isn't doing well it's LY but that's a whole other topic. The privatization in 2007 has helped some, but they still have a ways to go. ORD-TLV failed miserably on LY, hopefully UA+CO will have more luck. MIA is aparently slated to come back, but unfortunately Shkedi cancelled the 787 orders which would be a great aircraft for MIA. The route was cancelled due to fuel price run up which made the 767-200ER uncompetitive on the cost side.



I don't claim to be an expert, but I'm just making observations as an airline passenger about destinations I frequent. Continental for whatever reason is able to operate profitably to these destinations and continues to outperform AA financially. Clearly other carriers have superior management, strategic planning, cost structures, products and services.

Josh

What are you talking about as far as Argentina law regarding flight attendant crews? EZE-JFK-EZE is operated by US based JFK crews.
EZE-DFW-EZE is operated by US based DFW crews.
EZE-MIA-MIA -one flight is foreign nationals based at EZE
and the other is US based MIA crews.


The only reason that one of the flight to/from MIA is operated using foreign nationals is because the APFA president Cheryl Leon gave that to AA when AA bought Eastern Airlines routes. The foreign nationals are still a bone to pick with MIA based flight attendants and has nothing to do with Argentina law but everything to do with saving money and outsourcing jobs.

 

[NYGiantsFan90]

AA bought ALL of TWA, not pieces. And its a lousy thing AA did to the TLV based employees.

US' flight is profitable and we are thinking of adding a second daily flight, DL and CO upgraded their A/C DL now flies 747-400s and CO flies 777, I seriously doubt they would be flying their and those types of planes if they didnt make money.

US has cut all of the International unprofitable flights, as did DL.

 

[737823]

Great. AA didn't buy TWA. They bought pieces of the carcass, and offered employment to the remaining employees as of April 2001. TLV wasn't on that list. AA didn't pay any other bills for pre-April 2001 expenses, so explain how AA is liable...



Then explain how it isn't a crappy market, Josh. Israel isn't exactly the center of regional banking or commerce in the region, and it's certainly not a connecting hub... Most of the people flying there are tourists or traveling to see family at one end or the other, and that equates to junk yields.

And how do you know it's profitable? Have you worked at all three carriers and have insights into market profitability, or are you just assuming that because they fly there and a few flights are full, it must be profitable?... How much of those full flights are simply frequent flyer redemptions? Airlines have been known to maintain some markets simply to burn mileage liability, and it wouldn't surprise me if that were the case with at least one of those carriers.

Have you ever been to Israel? It's an awesome place and people of all faiths should be interested in visiting. Israel actually has a very strong corporate presence, specifically in finance, pharmaceuticals and high technology. Almost every major multinational corporation has a presence in Tel Aviv, Tel Aviv university brings in traffic, many American Jews visit regularly, so I wouldn't call it a crappy market. Before you take a such an adamant (and uninformed) position about a place or market, you really should research it more to develop a greater understanding. You are correct though about it not being a connecting hub. Having been to Ben Gurion I agree the airport layout is awful for connections especially given the additional security screenings.

I don't work for the airlines, but I take these flights regularly and know others who do as well. Take a look at the fares on Delta or Continental.
Larry Kellner (previous CEO until 01/2010) has stated the route is highly profitable, hence why CO has considered adding CLE-TLV, IAH-TLV, and a third EWR-TLV. CLE will NEVER happen, but I could see 4-5x/weekly IAH-TLV on 787 Dreamliner.
http://www.allbusiness.com/middle-east/israel/3992277-1.html

Further, its near impossible redeeming either Business or Economy awards on DL & CO on this route as they hold the inventory very, very tight. I've had better luck doing AA+LY, AA+BA, and IB for award availability so that's not really a concern. As others have said, if these routes weren't profitable the airlines wouldn't be devoting multiple wide bodies on the route.

AA bought ALL of TWA, not pieces. And its a lousy thing AA did to the TLV based employees.

US' flight is profitable and we are thinking of adding a second daily flight, DL and CO upgraded their A/C DL now flies 747-400s and CO flies 777, I seriously doubt they would be flying their and those types of planes if they didnt make money.

US has cut all of the International unprofitable flights, as did DL.

Agreed. I haven't tried the US Envoy suites but CO is great especially if you get the new flat bed seats. If I recall correctly, AA purchased TW out of bankruptcy but the pullout from TLV was after the merger closed so they could be held responsible. IAA has said they will seize an AA aircraft as collateral if one is ever diverted to TLV. It seems AA management doesn't see it that way. Everywhere else they have no problem following the laws. While it would be nice to have additional seats and AA service to TLV, ultimately AA is the one losing out here while the competition wins.

http://www.jewishsightseeing.com/travel_providers/airlines/american_airlines/sd3-16american_airlines.htm

Josh

 

[Ralph]

No longer about a passenger's trip report. Thread closed.