I have read most of the posts for the vote no mind set, and it all comes down to hoping the judge will reach a favorable decision for the mechanics. When you look at the complete and very big picture, your vote no decision is simply based in fantasy. It is not based on actual facts, it can’t be. That is why there is going to be another vote, so people can clear their heads of fantasy. Read Chip’s posts on the facts that are all public record, but he posts here for your easy read and understanding. Dave is letting another vote happen, NOT because he is afraid of a no vote, but to simply avoid all the hardships it will cause. Dave is not a top of the cl*** Harvard graduate playing a Frank Lorenzo ploy, he is what he says he is, a straight shooter trying to save a failing airline and most of the jobs with it. Why would he want to be the a young and very much hated Frank Lorenzo all over again! I can understand some of this. It’s labeled The Steel Mill Mentality, a Pittsburgh first along with the labor unions. I have lived long enough to see what that mentality can accomplish, and here is what it “helpedâ€, not caused, to happen: All of the BIG steel mill plants that ran for miles along the rivers of Pittsburgh are gone, but that’s only the beginning. Westinghouse and all its plants, Rockwell International, Dravo, Mesta Machine, Wean United, Brauns Bakery, Babcox & Wilcox, Union Switch & Signal, most of the unionized food chains, such Kroger and A&P, Thorafare, and Duquesne Brewery, on and on and on equaling thousands of jobs. I remember a friend who worked at Dravo when they were in the same situation we find ourselves in. He said: I don’t care, I say VOTE no and let them shut it down, well we all know they did indeed shut it down. He lived the rest of his life working very hard at less than half the money and died last year at age 51. Many of the steel workers that lost their jobs and also many of their sons now work at U, because it is the best game in town without requiring undergraduate studies and a college degree to earn a very livable wage. Go to a tech school and get your A&P and you’re good to go. Unfortunately these same people bring with them the kind of attitude we are now seeing, which is, I DON’T CARE, SHUT IT DOWN. If you are too young to remember ask you parents what happened around here, and if you actually lived it and went through it all and still want to vote no, then don’t be surprised when U joins the ranks of the companies I mentioned.
THOUGHTS ON A NO VOTE
- Thread starter cavalier
- Start date
A320 Driver
Veteran
- Aug 24, 2002
- 3,358
- 2,319
Cav,
Your post was great but I'm afraid your wasting your time. There is a great confrontation brewing that has been coming on since October 1992. This is like reasoning with a drunk...just when you think your getting somewhere, you end up starting all over. These folks won't listen until this thing comes to a head. Let it happen and I think we will all be better off for it in the end. No one group of employees is the backbone of our company. We haul people in airplanes for money and EVERY employee is a support function of that. No one employee is any more or less important than the rest. But we are dealing with a group of people who consider themselves so important that the world will stop turning without them. WE WILL FIND A WAY TO SURVIVE! The REALITY CHECK takes place after the next NO vote. The guy at the top of this outfit is not as stupid as some folks think.
Looking forward to it!
A320 Driver
Your post was great but I'm afraid your wasting your time. There is a great confrontation brewing that has been coming on since October 1992. This is like reasoning with a drunk...just when you think your getting somewhere, you end up starting all over. These folks won't listen until this thing comes to a head. Let it happen and I think we will all be better off for it in the end. No one group of employees is the backbone of our company. We haul people in airplanes for money and EVERY employee is a support function of that. No one employee is any more or less important than the rest. But we are dealing with a group of people who consider themselves so important that the world will stop turning without them. WE WILL FIND A WAY TO SURVIVE! The REALITY CHECK takes place after the next NO vote. The guy at the top of this outfit is not as stupid as some folks think.
Looking forward to it!
A320 Driver
Cav,
I don't think it's steel mill mentality at all.
This is comeing from all of AMTs across the country who are working for airlines that are trying to take advantage
of the current so called hard times of the airline industry.
I don't believe that the airlines are hurting as bad as they claim to be.
I'd be more than willing to take concessions as long as it's done fairly.
Give me my big parity raise and then take the percentage out that you need just like some of the labor groups got.
When the company shows profit, pay all the labor groups industry standards.
The company doesn't need change our benifits to get the amount of savings they want.
If dave was as sincere as some people think he is he'd be renegotiating our proposal instead of saying like he did at the last meeting,thats the way it is.
There's nothing promissing that they won't take these loans and put the money in their pockets and say we goofed, sorry now we have to file chapt.7
This airline has done this in the past thats why this airline is in this condition now.
I agree that 9-11 put a hurting to the airline industry but the problem isn't the labor pool as a whole it has alot to do with the way the management does things and thats why I'm voting NO!
I don't think it's steel mill mentality at all.
This is comeing from all of AMTs across the country who are working for airlines that are trying to take advantage
of the current so called hard times of the airline industry.
I don't believe that the airlines are hurting as bad as they claim to be.
I'd be more than willing to take concessions as long as it's done fairly.
Give me my big parity raise and then take the percentage out that you need just like some of the labor groups got.
When the company shows profit, pay all the labor groups industry standards.
The company doesn't need change our benifits to get the amount of savings they want.
If dave was as sincere as some people think he is he'd be renegotiating our proposal instead of saying like he did at the last meeting,thats the way it is.
There's nothing promissing that they won't take these loans and put the money in their pockets and say we goofed, sorry now we have to file chapt.7
This airline has done this in the past thats why this airline is in this condition now.
I agree that 9-11 put a hurting to the airline industry but the problem isn't the labor pool as a whole it has alot to do with the way the management does things and thats why I'm voting NO!
[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/8/2002 6
33 PM t-man wrote:
Cav,
I don't think it's steel mill mentality at all.
This is comeing from all of AMTs across the country who are working for airlines that are trying to take advantage
of the current "so called" hard times of the airline industry.
I don't believe that the airlines are hurting as bad as they claim to be.
I'd be more than willing to take concessions as long as it's done fairly.
Give me my big parity raise and then take the percentage out that you need just like some of the labor groups got.
When the company shows profit, pay all the labor groups industry standards.
The company doesn't need change our benifits to get the amount of savings they want.
If dave was as sincere as some people think he is he'd be renegotiating our proposal instead of saying like he did at the last meeting,"thats the way it is".
There's nothing promissing that they won't take these loans and put the money in their pockets and say "we goofed, sorry now we have to file chapt.7"
This airline has done this in the past thats why this airline is in this condition now.
I agree that 9-11 put a hurting to the airline industry but the problem isn't the labor pool as a whole it has alot to do with the way the management does things and thats why I'm voting NO!
----------------
[/blockquote]
Don't vote no to show the company. They are the good guys this time. The I.A.M. is out to use your pay to subsidize unskilled groups. This will allow the I.A.M. to maintain membership. They could care less about your cuts as long as it doesn't cut their rolls. Have you heard anything about dues reduction?
----------------
On 9/8/2002 6
33 PM t-man wrote: Cav,
I don't think it's steel mill mentality at all.
This is comeing from all of AMTs across the country who are working for airlines that are trying to take advantage
of the current "so called" hard times of the airline industry.
I don't believe that the airlines are hurting as bad as they claim to be.
I'd be more than willing to take concessions as long as it's done fairly.
Give me my big parity raise and then take the percentage out that you need just like some of the labor groups got.
When the company shows profit, pay all the labor groups industry standards.
The company doesn't need change our benifits to get the amount of savings they want.
If dave was as sincere as some people think he is he'd be renegotiating our proposal instead of saying like he did at the last meeting,"thats the way it is".
There's nothing promissing that they won't take these loans and put the money in their pockets and say "we goofed, sorry now we have to file chapt.7"
This airline has done this in the past thats why this airline is in this condition now.
I agree that 9-11 put a hurting to the airline industry but the problem isn't the labor pool as a whole it has alot to do with the way the management does things and thats why I'm voting NO!
----------------
[/blockquote]
Don't vote no to show the company. They are the good guys this time. The I.A.M. is out to use your pay to subsidize unskilled groups. This will allow the I.A.M. to maintain membership. They could care less about your cuts as long as it doesn't cut their rolls. Have you heard anything about dues reduction?
[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/8/2002 5:22:18 PM cavalier wrote:
I have read most of the posts for the vote no mind set, and it all comes down to hoping the judge will reach a favorable decision for the mechanics. When you look at the complete and very big picture, your vote no decision is simply based in fantasy. It is not based on actual facts, it can’t be. That is why there is going to be another vote, so people can clear their heads of fantasy. Read Chip’s posts on the facts that are all public record, but he posts here for your easy read and understanding. Dave is letting another vote happen, NOT because he is afraid of a no vote, but to simply avoid all the hardships it will cause. Dave is not a top of the cl*** Harvard graduate playing a Frank Lorenzo ploy, he is what he says he is, a straight shooter trying to save a failing airline and most of the jobs with it. Why would he want to be the a young and very much hated Frank Lorenzo all over again! I can understand some of this. It’s labeled The Steel Mill Mentality, a Pittsburgh first along with the labor unions. I have lived long enough to see what that mentality can accomplish, and here is what it “helped”, not caused, to happen: All of the BIG steel mill plants that ran for miles along the rivers of Pittsburgh are gone, but that’s only the beginning. Westinghouse and all its plants, Rockwell International, Dravo, Mesta Machine, Wean United, Brauns Bakery, Babcox & Wilcox, Union Switch & Signal, most of the unionized food chains, such Kroger and A&P, Thorafare, and Duquesne Brewery, on and on and on equaling thousands of jobs. I remember a friend who worked at Dravo when they were in the same situation we find ourselves in. He said: I don’t care, I say VOTE no and let them shut it down, well we all know they did indeed shut it down. He lived the rest of his life working very hard at less than half the money and died last year at age 51. Many of the steel workers that lost their jobs and also many of their sons now work at U, because it is the best game in town without requiring undergraduate studies and a college degree to earn a very livable wage. Go to a tech school and get your A&P and you’re good to go. Unfortunately these same people bring with them the kind of attitude we are now seeing, which is, I DON’T CARE, SHUT IT DOWN. If you are too young to remember ask you parents what happened around here, and if you actually lived it and went through it all and still want to vote no, then don’t be surprised when U joins the ranks of the companies I mentioned.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Voting no will not shut it down. It will just temporarily ***imilate us into the 88%of the country without a union contract.
Allow the company to finally decide who they need to maintain and fly a fleet of aircraft, not the union unskilled protectionists
----------------
On 9/8/2002 5:22:18 PM cavalier wrote:
I have read most of the posts for the vote no mind set, and it all comes down to hoping the judge will reach a favorable decision for the mechanics. When you look at the complete and very big picture, your vote no decision is simply based in fantasy. It is not based on actual facts, it can’t be. That is why there is going to be another vote, so people can clear their heads of fantasy. Read Chip’s posts on the facts that are all public record, but he posts here for your easy read and understanding. Dave is letting another vote happen, NOT because he is afraid of a no vote, but to simply avoid all the hardships it will cause. Dave is not a top of the cl*** Harvard graduate playing a Frank Lorenzo ploy, he is what he says he is, a straight shooter trying to save a failing airline and most of the jobs with it. Why would he want to be the a young and very much hated Frank Lorenzo all over again! I can understand some of this. It’s labeled The Steel Mill Mentality, a Pittsburgh first along with the labor unions. I have lived long enough to see what that mentality can accomplish, and here is what it “helped”, not caused, to happen: All of the BIG steel mill plants that ran for miles along the rivers of Pittsburgh are gone, but that’s only the beginning. Westinghouse and all its plants, Rockwell International, Dravo, Mesta Machine, Wean United, Brauns Bakery, Babcox & Wilcox, Union Switch & Signal, most of the unionized food chains, such Kroger and A&P, Thorafare, and Duquesne Brewery, on and on and on equaling thousands of jobs. I remember a friend who worked at Dravo when they were in the same situation we find ourselves in. He said: I don’t care, I say VOTE no and let them shut it down, well we all know they did indeed shut it down. He lived the rest of his life working very hard at less than half the money and died last year at age 51. Many of the steel workers that lost their jobs and also many of their sons now work at U, because it is the best game in town without requiring undergraduate studies and a college degree to earn a very livable wage. Go to a tech school and get your A&P and you’re good to go. Unfortunately these same people bring with them the kind of attitude we are now seeing, which is, I DON’T CARE, SHUT IT DOWN. If you are too young to remember ask you parents what happened around here, and if you actually lived it and went through it all and still want to vote no, then don’t be surprised when U joins the ranks of the companies I mentioned.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Voting no will not shut it down. It will just temporarily ***imilate us into the 88%of the country without a union contract.
Allow the company to finally decide who they need to maintain and fly a fleet of aircraft, not the union unskilled protectionists
airknocker
Member
- Aug 21, 2002
- 52
- 0
This may come as a surprize to you, but not all of us were native 'burgers. The attitude expressed by U mechs is the culmination of the past decade of mgt&union neglect and misreading of our motives. The responsibility of keeping an aircraft safe and reliable weighs heavy on mechanics and one is reminded at the sound of every takeoff. The experience level of the mechs at U range from engine overhaul, component repair to those who have maintained aircraft from every commercial model made to military a/c from F-16 to the SR-71. So when the executive mgt decides to make us some of the LEAST compensated AMTs in the industry for the next six years or more, the NO vote resulted. Most of us have never worked in the steel industry, but we have respect for those who did, for they supplied the material to build this nation in which we are proud to live. This whole debacle is not just for money, but for principle and personal dignity. Unforunately, it seems these factors are scarce when dealing with U mgt.
Steel mill mentality is how the company ended up with some of the ridiculous work rules we enjoy today. Do we enjoy them? Yes. Should they be revisited? Most definitely. Please allow the skilled workers the dignity of not subsidizing unskilled groups any longer. In some cities, the unskilled group that will not receive a cut outnumber those who will. This must stop.
ClueByFour
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,566
- 37
Just out of curiosity:
Where do you expect them to come up with the cash for all of this personal dignity and whatnot?
Where do you expect them to come up with the cash for all of this personal dignity and whatnot?
[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/8/2002 6:03:54 PM airknocker wrote:
This may come as a surprize to you, but not all of us were native 'burgers. The attitude expressed by U mechs is the culmination of the past decade of mgt&union neglect and misreading of our motives. The responsibility of keeping an aircraft safe and reliable weighs heavy on mechanics and one is reminded at the sound of every takeoff. The experience level of the mechs at U range from engine overhaul, component repair to those who have maintained aircraft from every commercial model made to military a/c from F-16 to the SR-71. So when the executive mgt decides to make us some of the LEAST compensated AMTs in the industry for the next six years or more, the NO vote resulted. Most of us have never worked in the steel industry, but we have respect for those who did, for they supplied the material to build this nation in which we are proud to live. This whole debacle is not just for money, but for principle and personal dignity. Unforunately, it seems these factors are scarce when dealing with U mgt.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Here Here
We can no longer afford to subsidize groups who's job descriptions are antiquated at best. We are not in a regulated industry any longer. We need look no further than the latest Southwest or UPS contracts. These people have enough to do the job but not enouh to have time to complain.
----------------
On 9/8/2002 6:03:54 PM airknocker wrote:
This may come as a surprize to you, but not all of us were native 'burgers. The attitude expressed by U mechs is the culmination of the past decade of mgt&union neglect and misreading of our motives. The responsibility of keeping an aircraft safe and reliable weighs heavy on mechanics and one is reminded at the sound of every takeoff. The experience level of the mechs at U range from engine overhaul, component repair to those who have maintained aircraft from every commercial model made to military a/c from F-16 to the SR-71. So when the executive mgt decides to make us some of the LEAST compensated AMTs in the industry for the next six years or more, the NO vote resulted. Most of us have never worked in the steel industry, but we have respect for those who did, for they supplied the material to build this nation in which we are proud to live. This whole debacle is not just for money, but for principle and personal dignity. Unforunately, it seems these factors are scarce when dealing with U mgt.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Here Here
We can no longer afford to subsidize groups who's job descriptions are antiquated at best. We are not in a regulated industry any longer. We need look no further than the latest Southwest or UPS contracts. These people have enough to do the job but not enouh to have time to complain.
OldGuyinPA
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 700
- 8
Crystal Palace...
Keep on voting...Maybe in 7 years from now you'll get the results your looking for. As for me...I'll vote No for the CWA amendments. It is a matter of principle and dignity. I'm tired of moving. I've got one last move in me. Go West ,young man. Go West...
Keep on voting...Maybe in 7 years from now you'll get the results your looking for. As for me...I'll vote No for the CWA amendments. It is a matter of principle and dignity. I'm tired of moving. I've got one last move in me. Go West ,young man. Go West...
A320 Driver
Veteran
- Aug 24, 2002
- 3,358
- 2,319
IAM-M has some truly wonderful and talented people in it. When all this hits the fan the cream will come to the top...trust me. Those with integety and vision will not leave U holding the bag. Remember, 43% voted YES. Let the nay-sayers have their day, then we can move forward as a company again.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/8/2002 7
20 PM t-man wrote:
jettec,
If the company are the good guys then why aren't they asking us what they need to change on the proposal instead of trying to force it down our throat?
----------------
[/blockquote]
The awnser is simple. They have always been able to manipulate the IAM. Again...in this process , The IAM is the bad element. Sure the company is going to go for all they can take us for!! Rest a-s-s-ured of that. The IAM is also going to take the company...and our continued dues , form all it's worth too!! We need to stabalize the airline first....then rid ourselves of the IAM. This will break-up the cozy nest the two have shared at our expense. This is not the time to fight both ends of the spectrum at once. Win a battle first....then attempt to win the war. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/1.gif']
----------------
On 9/8/2002 7
20 PM t-man wrote: jettec,
If the company are the good guys then why aren't they asking us what they need to change on the proposal instead of trying to force it down our throat?
----------------
[/blockquote]
The awnser is simple. They have always been able to manipulate the IAM. Again...in this process , The IAM is the bad element. Sure the company is going to go for all they can take us for!! Rest a-s-s-ured of that. The IAM is also going to take the company...and our continued dues , form all it's worth too!! We need to stabalize the airline first....then rid ourselves of the IAM. This will break-up the cozy nest the two have shared at our expense. This is not the time to fight both ends of the spectrum at once. Win a battle first....then attempt to win the war. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/1.gif']
[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/8/2002 6:27:48 PM ClueByFour wrote:
Just out of curiosity:
Where do you expect them to come up with the cash for all of this "personal dignity" and whatnot?
----------------
[/blockquote]
A clue for you
10 minutes prior to arrival the F/A picks up the cabin with the help of Pax. 10 minutes later if she tries she is named in a grievance procedure by a utility person who finds the time occasionally to get there in time to see it.
----------------
On 9/8/2002 6:27:48 PM ClueByFour wrote:
Just out of curiosity:
Where do you expect them to come up with the cash for all of this "personal dignity" and whatnot?
----------------
[/blockquote]
A clue for you
10 minutes prior to arrival the F/A picks up the cabin with the help of Pax. 10 minutes later if she tries she is named in a grievance procedure by a utility person who finds the time occasionally to get there in time to see it.
