Those Silly Pilots

[Tim Nelson]

Over the past couple weeks, I'm sure all of us have read all the pilot 'threads of division'. It sounds as if there is a complete dichotomy within the pilot group. Who's right, who's wrong and where is your company going from here?

The way I see it, there are two huge unfair, unreasonable, and unjust situations regarding pilots at this point. Grossly unfair situations almost always result in the type of manifestations that you may now be seeing within the pilot group.

1. The Nic Award is completely unfair to the East siders who fly your planes.

2. Any East sider slowdown, fuel burnoff, or whatever is completely unjust, flat out wrong, and 'juvenile at best' if it is truly happening.

Where is your company going from here? NOWHERE but 'gone' if things continue in these divisions!

I agree with the fullness of USA320pilot's expressions about the Nic Award. 700 and others can say it is binding but in reality, the Nic award can't possibly have any 'teeth' until a joint seniority list is resolved. Bottom line is that one can't reasonably expect that east siders will ever come under the fullness of the Nic award unless they agree to screw themselves over in a mighty way. It isn't happening fellas.
To be sure, the Nic award is unfair, and wrong but not erroneous. The arbitrator is a recognized professional and 'justified' his discovery & judgement. Definately not in error, but still unfair. It will stand in the courts but will NEVER have teeth without a joint seniority list.

Further, it seems to me that the majority of US AIRWAYS east pilots only need a handful of years to retire and provided US AIRWAYS can stay afloat for another half dozen years then I doubt any new transition agreement will take effect if the 'westies' are doggedly determined to expect full recognition of the Nic Award.

The lack of any transition agreement will be costly to US AIRWAYS, and if there really is an effort by east siders to burn unneccesary fuel or use other 'unnecessary tools of manipulation', then I would think the westies and other US AIRWAYS workers [east siders & westies] will have the most to lose and will experience great 'pain' from lost profits or perhaps big losses. IMO, given the state of the industry and high fuel cost, any intentional inefficiencies and continued dichotomy within the pilot group will most likely deal a fatal blow to US AIRWAYS.

Regarding any alleged fuel burnoffs or even legal 'by the book' actions, they're all wrong and can't be justified one bit. Such actions, although unwarrented, would most likely devastate your company if things persisted with such divisions.

In conclusion, it makes absolutely no sense for the westies to fight for the full implementation of the nic award since in doing so they may make it irrelevant if there is no company. If they think for one second that the east siders do not have a hard heart and will see things to the end then they will be sorely mistaken. The east siders should be doing their jobs in the professional way they know how. Maybe they are, I dunno.

I think any resolution will have to come from both the westies and east siders stepping up to the plate and working things out fairly regarding seniority. Bring the two chiefs together.
Perhaps a mediator was and is needed instead of an arbitrator. At any rate, I haven't seen any evidence that you can count on your company to mediate or work things out.

regards,

 

[Freighterguynow]

Hey Tim - I really enjoy your posts! A voice of reason in the wilderness.

 

[exB717Flyer]

In conclusion, it makes absolutely no sense for the westies to fight for the full implementation of the nic award since in doing so they may make it irrelevant if there is no company.

Lemme get this straight: you think the Westies should give up what Nicolau awarded because if we don't the Easties will burn down the company out of spite -- and that'll be the Westie's fault? This is called extortion.

Bring the two chiefs together. Perhaps a mediator was and is needed instead of an arbitrator. At any rate, I haven't seen any evidence that you can

Perhaps you're unaware that we were, in fact, mediated by Nicolau in the Fall of 2006. An agreement wasn't reached and that's how it ended up in arbitration. I think it's safe to say that any talks between the East and West will not result in a negotiated settlement. Who is qualified and unbiased enough to settle this if not a professional arbitrator?

 

[missthe727]

Regarding any alleged fuel burnoffs or even legal 'by the book' actions, they're all wrong and can't be justified one bit.

First of all, the title of your pots "Those Silly Pilots" is totally insulting. Next I have to ask is if what you are saying is to not go by the book and to operate in an unsafe manner ????
That's ludicrous !
Safety is FIRST and UTMOST for the passengers and flight crews. Think about what you posted-----Your above statement is just plain out of line.

 

[Tim Nelson]

First of all, the title of your pots "Those Silly Pilots" is totally insulting. Next I have to ask is if what you are saying is to not go by the book and to operate in an unsafe manner ????
That's ludicrous !
Safety is FIRST and UTMOST for the passengers and flight crews. Think about what you posted-----Your above statement is just plain out of line.

I think it is silly that the two pilot groups couldn't get this done yet between themselves. Sorry. I think every pilot should be insulted by the silliness of the relationship between the two groups and its resulting dichotomy.

I also think it is silly if Pilots are purposely and intentionally doing things because of anger or resentment to 'prove a point'. I am not using the term 'going by the book' to suggest normal and customary safety precautions. Even though "going by the book' hides under the veil of safety, I think we all know that the term "Going by the Book" usually involves a 'change of heart' attitude to prove a point, with intentions to disrupt or make a point.

regards,

 

[USA320Pilot]

Tim,

Great post, I see your humor in the title of this thread, and I believe your post is 100% accurate.

There is no question the West pilots have more to lose than the East because the majority of active US Airways pilots would retire before a corporate failure.

I continue to believe the best option is to let the Nicolau Award stand, create fences of maybe 12 to 15 years, share growth, and create Section 1 scope protections in the event of downsizing.

However, a number of Executive Council EVP's endorse throwing the award out (which they have the authority to do), create a new consensual list with new ratios, or creating a new list with fences.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Walmartgreeter]

"create fences of maybe 12 to 15 years,..."

320...Fences don't do it for me, it is just dressing up a pig that will come back to haunt us in the next merger. Having seen some of the latest traffic and data, I think this thing is toast. We will be back to square one in about 3-4 weeks.

Best,

Greeter.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Lemme get this straight: you think the Westies should give up what Nicolau awarded because if we don't the Easties will burn down the company out of spite -- and that'll be the Westie's fault? This is called extortion.Perhaps you're unaware that we were, in fact, mediated by Nicolau in the Fall of 2006. An agreement wasn't reached and that's how it ended up in arbitration. I think it's safe to say that any talks between the East and West will not result in a negotiated settlement. Who is qualified and unbiased enough to settle this if not a professional arbitrator?

No you are inaccurate in your interpretation.
I never said the westies should give up the Nic award. The Nic award is unfair but it is a 'product' of an agreement between the pilot groups, in which case, the east siders should expect to pay a price in any seniority resolution. But keeping it 'as is' is inequitable and unfair and shouldn't be paraded around to make the east siders have even harder hearts.
Also, the westies can't be responsible for what the east siders do. If the East siders are resentful and do harm by 'going by the book' then the westies should not fear the harm or feelings of extortment.

Regarding your comment on mediation. Who says your mediator/arbitrator was acting in a professional way from the beginning? His 'action', with his award is strong indication to me that he was only 'acting under the auspices of professionalism' but in fact was biased from the beginning and may have been the variable that was actually hindering progress. I use his award as my witness to this. Although I can't say his award was in error, it was unfair and IMO lacked the character associated with professionalism. Perhaps a full investigation of the matter should be pursued to see if the rabbit hole goes any deeper. To be sure, I have no idea where ALPA is coming from, and IMO ALPA itself can throw out the award altogether based on its constitution. I see this unlikely but USA320 does in fact have extremely valid points about this. It would make a court case that would be hotly contested by the westies but also drag things further in bitterness IMO.

Perhaps, Nic had to be 'rooted out' of mediation and you need a fresh mediator who isn't biased and maintains his professional integrity. At any rate, something gotta give.

Regarding USA320 idea of 12-15 years out. I'm not sure I follow it but I'm not convinced this thing can fly under such an idea. But it is an initial idea of compromise which I understand. If such an idea was presented in mediation then it would mark a starting point IMO.

regards,

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Regarding your comment on mediation. Who says your mediator/arbitrator was acting in a professional way from the beginning?


Bingo. There's the rub.

Greeter.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Lemme get this straight: you think the Westies should give up what Nicolau awarded because if we don't the Easties will burn down the company out of spite -- and that'll be the Westie's fault? This is called extortion.

And extortion is against the law. Then again, rules don't mean much to some people.

 

[retiresoon]

In conclusion, it makes absolutely no sense for the westies to fight for the full implementation of the nic award since in doing so they may make it irrelevant if there is no company.

That makes lot of sense!!!.... After writing a few paragraphs about the east pilots slowing the company down, burning down the house etc., you think that the solution is for the west pilots to give something up to appease them?

BOTH sides tried to work this out in mediation. After that failed, BOTH sides agreed to BINDING arbitration. BOTH sides agreed to abide by the decision of the arbitrator. Now, that the East side doesn't like the award, and that the viability of the company may be in jeopardy because of east side shenanigans, you hold the west pilots responsible! Unbelievable!

What did the West pilots do to deserve this blame?? I know that there are a few Westies on this board that talk a lot, but a majority of the pilot group here has a lot of campassion for the East side's trials and tribulations. Shoot, there are a lot of us on the West that have been through lamentation with furloughs, Chapter 7's, etc. This business is OUT OF OUR HANDS. We just fly the planes. Sure, we might have a little pull with contract negotiations, etc, but for the most part, we are all along for the ride.

The east side has to do what they have to do. But remember, this is not the fault of the west Side, so don't blame us.

 

[MustangSally]

I believe that the order that the seniority list was done is lidicrous. NO ONE WHO HAS JUST RESENTLY BEEN HIRED SHOULD EVER AND I REPEAT EVER GO AHEAD OF ONE WHO HAS BEEN WORKING FOR 18 YEARS!!!!!! I truly believe that he was tired at the end and just started throwing numbers out. Never in a seniority based system should this ever occur. The westies should realize that the easties will all be retiring within the next 10 years and should go with a merged seniority based intergration system. I am proud of the east for taking a stand no matter the cost. The east coast employees have given and given and given and have not shared on the rewards. It is about time for them to stand up and take a stance!!!!!!

 

[LCC_#1]

BOTH sides tried to work this out in mediation. After that failed, BOTH sides agreed to BINDING arbitration. BOTH sides agreed to abide by the decision of the arbitrator. Now, that the East side doesn't like the award, and that the viability of the company may be in jeopardy because of east side shenanigans, you hold the west pilots responsible! Unbelievable!

Perhaps you ignored the 14-1 decision by ALPA to take this to another arbitrator as the last arbitrator did NOT follow the ALPA merger guidelines? That's 14 and West little ole ONE vote! Oh, must be a conspiracy. No matter if you agree or disagree, an arbitrator MUST follow specific guidelines about any windfall. ALPA decided this decision created a windfall so it WILL go to another arbitrator and if not settled will NOT be valid. So you guys can holler binding all you want but when it comes to ALPA, IT AIN'T BINDING!!

 

[Tim Nelson]

That makes lot of sense!!!.... After writing a few paragraphs about the east pilots slowing the company down, burning down the house etc., you think that the solution is for the west pilots to give something up to appease them?

BOTH sides tried to work this out in mediation. After that failed, BOTH sides agreed to BINDING arbitration. BOTH sides agreed to abide by the decision of the arbitrator. Now, that the East side doesn't like the award, and that the viability of the company may be in jeopardy because of east side shenanigans, you hold the west pilots responsible! Unbelievable!

What did the West pilots do to deserve this blame?? I know that there are a few Westies on this board that talk a lot, but a majority of the pilot group here has a lot of campassion for the East side's trials and tribulations. Shoot, there are a lot of us on the West that have been through lamentation with furloughs, Chapter 7's, etc. This business is OUT OF OUR HANDS. We just fly the planes. Sure, we might have a little pull with contract negotiations, etc, but for the most part, we are all along for the ride.

The east side has to do what they have to do. But remember, this is not the fault of the west Side, so don't blame us.

I believe you wrote this at the same time I was clarifying my statements. Refer to post #8 under this thread where I recognize the 'agreement' to arbitrate by both parties. The resulting award will have to be recognized 'in some fair fashion' by the east siders IMO. But face value, the award is wrong.
Here's a thought, the award was so biased IMO that it appears to me that Nic had a dance partner and this thing was foregone from the get go.

Question: Was anyone puling for the westies and discreetly dancing with Nic?

regards,

Tim,

Great post, I see your humor in the title of this thread, and I believe your post is 100% accurate.

There is no question the West pilots have more to lose than the East because the majority of active US Airways pilots would retire before a corporate failure.

I continue to believe the best option is to let the Nicolau Award stand, create fences of maybe 12 to 15 years, share growth, and create Section 1 scope protections in the event of downsizing.

However, a number of Executive Council EVP's endorse throwing the award out (which they have the authority to do), create a new consensual list with new ratios, or creating a new list with fences.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Yes it was humor indeed. Catchy title I thought with a bit of a sidebar of humor.

Anyways, interesting discussion although difficult.

regards,

 

[retiresoon]

Perhaps you ignored the 14-1 decision by ALPA to take this to another arbitrator as the last arbitrator did NOT follow the ALPA merger guidelines? That's 14 and West little ole ONE vote! Oh, must be a conspiracy. No matter if you agree or disagree, an arbitrator MUST follow specific guidelines about any windfall. ALPA decided this decision created a windfall so it WILL go to another arbitrator and if not settled will NOT be valid. So you guys can holler binding all you want but when it comes to ALPA, IT AIN'T BINDING!!

Hey, I'm just giving you the facts, not an opinion of what the award SHOULD have been. All of that stuff was hashed out over a few weeks and a decision was made by a NEUTRAL arbitrator. Even the pilot neutral, chosen by the east, agreed to the award (except for 300 or so pilots that he thought should have been integrated into the list).

I haven't heard of a 14-1 decision by ALPA to take this to another arbitrator. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that. Your statement of ALPA deciding that this was a windfall is also news to me, so If you have any documentation of those statements from ALPA (not your interpretation), please post it.

Again, I am not saying that the East side has not been through some tough times, only that the attacks on the West Pilots are unjustified. In fact, we never wanted this merger to happen to begin with.... especially now, after our "windfall".