This explains it

[pilot]

Names erased for obvious reasons.

This is from an East pilot and may help you Westies figure out why the anger and outrage:

Dear XXXX,

There’s a story going around the East crew bases that goes something like this:

An East crew and a West crew found themselves sharing a van ride to the hotel. The West Captain looked at the East Captain and said, “what is it with you guys and date-of-hire?†The East Captain looked to the AWA First Officer and said, “Are you typed on the A320?†The West Pilot replied, “yeah, I am.†The East Captain asked, “well, why is he the Captain and not you?†The West F/O replied, “because he’s senior to me.†The East Captain asked, “why is he senior to you?†The West F/O replied, “he got hired before me.†The East Captain turned to the West Captain and said, “your First Officer gets it, why don’t you?â€

This story plays well in the East because there’s a serious truism here. You and the West Pilots you represent order your seniority by date-of-hire. The relationship between your Pilots was, is, and will always be; date-of-hire. You wouldn’t consider any other way of doing it because it is the way you have always done it.

Our two Pilot groups are destined to become one and spend years together. If this merger disaster stands, the morale problems in the East may very well put this airline out of business. Take a look around you and at your fellow pilots – what would the effect be on West operations if your list was arbitrarily re-ordered tomorrow? How would you feel if you were suddenly required to jerk gear for someone who was hired 3 years and 9 months ago? Put yourself in my shoes and the shoes of thousands of original US Airways Pilots.

Nicolau’s decision is a nice shiny toy that fell from the sky and I am aware that most AWA pilots somehow feel entitled to push ahead of me in the waiting line for a Captain’s bid. Losing the essence of something you’ve never had will be difficult. But I have held a Boeing Captain bid in Charlotte, our most senior crew base. My expectations were, and are, to recapture that Captain bid soon based on the attrition I know is coming from fellow East Pilots who are retiring.

I’m a First Officer and I get it. Why don’t you?

Fraternally,

XXXXXXXX

757/767 F/O


Former Army Helicopter Pilot, Maintenance Officer and Instructor Pilot

Hired in June 1987, 20 years longevity next month

Never furloughed -- Never scabbed -- Never in bad standing

ALPA experience includes: MEC Communications, Media Spokesman, Strike Prep Committee

I received my 2007 ALPA-PAC Capitol Club Member sticker in the mail yesterday

I am slotted one number junior to an AWA pilot who was a teenager when I was hired

I am slotted one number junior to an AWA pilot who has been here 3 years and nine months

 

[prechilill]

Names erased for obvious reasons.

This is from an East pilot and may help you Westies figure out why the anger and outrage:

Dear XXXX,

There’s a story going around the East crew bases that goes something like this:

An East crew and a West crew found themselves sharing a van ride to the hotel. The West Captain looked at the East Captain and said, “what is it with you guys and date-of-hire?†The East Captain looked to the AWA First Officer and said, “Are you typed on the A320?†The West Pilot replied, “yeah, I am.†The East Captain asked, “well, why is he the Captain and not you?†The West F/O replied, “because he’s senior to me.†The East Captain asked, “why is he senior to you?†The West F/O replied, “he got hired before me.†The East Captain turned to the West Captain and said, “your First Officer gets it, why don’t you?â€

This story plays well in the East because there’s a serious truism here. You and the West Pilots you represent order your seniority by date-of-hire. The relationship between your Pilots was, is, and will always be; date-of-hire. You wouldn’t consider any other way of doing it because it is the way you have always done it.

Our two Pilot groups are destined to become one and spend years together. If this merger disaster stands, the morale problems in the East may very well put this airline out of business. Take a look around you and at your fellow pilots – what would the effect be on West operations if your list was arbitrarily re-ordered tomorrow? How would you feel if you were suddenly required to jerk gear for someone who was hired 3 years and 9 months ago? Put yourself in my shoes and the shoes of thousands of original US Airways Pilots.

Nicolau’s decision is a nice shiny toy that fell from the sky and I am aware that most AWA pilots somehow feel entitled to push ahead of me in the waiting line for a Captain’s bid. Losing the essence of something you’ve never had will be difficult. But I have held a Boeing Captain bid in Charlotte, our most senior crew base. My expectations were, and are, to recapture that Captain bid soon based on the attrition I know is coming from fellow East Pilots who are retiring.

I’m a First Officer and I get it. Why don’t you?

Fraternally,

XXXXXXXX

757/767 F/O


Former Army Helicopter Pilot, Maintenance Officer and Instructor Pilot

Hired in June 1987, 20 years longevity next month

Never furloughed -- Never scabbed -- Never in bad standing

ALPA experience includes: MEC Communications, Media Spokesman, Strike Prep Committee

I received my 2007 ALPA-PAC Capitol Club Member sticker in the mail yesterday

I am slotted one number junior to an AWA pilot who was a teenager when I was hired

I am slotted one number junior to an AWA pilot who has been here 3 years and nine months

Nice resume, but unfortunately it means nothing for integrating two seniority lists from two airlines with different histories. I do not think you will find a west pilot who thinks the USAir pilots have never suffered. Again, suffering isn't a yardstick ALPA recommends for integrating two diverse work groups. Nicolau understood the significance of your argument and ruled accordingly.

 

[michael707767]

The East Captain looked to the AWA First Officer and said, “Are you typed on the A320?†The West Pilot replied, “yeah, I am.†The East Captain asked, “well, why is he the Captain and not you?†The West F/O replied, “because he’s senior to me.†The East Captain asked, “why is he senior to you?†The West F/O replied, “he got hired before me.†The East Captain turned to the West Captain and said, “your First Officer gets it, why don’t you?â€

You know, in your story had I been the AWA captain I would have asked the USAir FO why he was not a captain and I was.

Seniority in terms of DOH only really applies as long as you stay at the company you were hired at, and that company does not merge with someone else. If it does all bets are off. My humble opinion, an 18 year USAir FO is the same relative seniority as a 3 year AWA FO if they are both on the bottom.

Having said that, I recognize that USAir was going to experiance some attrition well beyond what AWA was going to experiance, and that should be accounted for. But I think it is partially covered by putting all the "widebody" pilots at the top of the list. Whether or not AWA had widebodies, a narrowbody captain is usually senior to a widebody FO. A fence from the widebodies, yes. Putting a widebody FO ahead of a narrowbody captain, no. So I do think some of the retirements were covered by this aspect.

I think the USAir guys got a raw deal. But, grossly unfair.....no. I would not have changed it by much had it been my call.

 

[N905TW]

I am slotted one number junior to an AWA pilot who was a teenager when I was hired

I am slotted one number junior to an AWA pilot who has been here 3 years and nine months

And that is exactly where the job you brought to the merger places you - no more, no less.

 

[Bud8EE]

And that is exactly where the job you brought to the merger places you - no more, no less.

The fact this his companies list(East only) will produce 1500 retirements in the next 5 years and the upgrades and movement it creates is also what East brought to the merger, the benefit should be his. No more, no less.

 

[prechilill]

You know, in your story had I been the AWA captain I would have asked the USAir FO why he was not a captain and I was.

How about substituting the AWA crew with a MESA crew where the RJ captain has been around for twenty years. How would DOH work then? There are so many fun permutations to this *supposed* van conversation.

 

[73320]

The fact this his companies list(East only) will produce 1500 retirements in the next 5 years and the upgrades and movement it creates is also what East brought to the merger, the benefit should be his. No more, no less.

Bud,

They should be able to capture the attrition they bring with them. The problem is that they are probably the only carrier in the world that has currently furloughed this deep into the list. Most carriers with this type of cutback are out of business.

One cant extrapolate attrition into oblivion. Seven 737's are going back to the lessors. Who is going to capture the attrition those planes were bringing? Can they capture it where the new planes will reside? The facts prior to the merger date is that AWA was hiring and had confirmed A/C deliveries, while US had no recalls and was continually downsizing. AWA pilots were also paid more than US pilots. That is likely the main reasoning that went into the award. Sadly, the new US will likely continue cutting capacity until they can merge with someone else and further reduce capacity. Rinse and repeat.

In theory I believe east should be able to capture the attrition they bring, but it appears some of that attrition may not exist.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The fact this his companies list(East only) will produce 1500 retirements in the next 5 years and the upgrades and movement it creates is also what East brought to the merger, the benefit should be his. No more, no less.

Your number's off by quite a bit, but the total number is really not that important. You see - most people throw around these attrition numbers as though they mean something. I guess they've heard or seen those numbers somewhere, so everybody assumes that there they'll move up that much (except those already higher than that, obviously). But the retirement of a pilot already out on medical, for example, means nothing - it won't make a single reserve a blockholder or a single F/O a Captain. The retirement of a 737 F/O means nothing to any pilot senior to him.

So here's the important questions:

- How many vacant positions will be made available by retirements in the next 5 years? After all, a retirement that doesn't leave a vacancy behind creates no movement.

- How many meaningful retirements in the top 1000 East pilots during the next 5 years? These will let everyone below them advance.

- How many in the next 1000 East pilots? They'll mean nothing to the top 1000.

- How many in the 3rd 1000? They'll mean nothing to the top 2000.

- And so on - you get the idea.

Of course, there's the big unknown - the effect if the retirement age is raised.....

Jim

 

[Bud8EE]

Your number's off by quite a bit, but the total number is really not that important. You see - most people throw around these attrition numbers as though they mean something. I guess they've heard or seen those numbers somewhere, so everybody assumes that there they'll move up that much (except those already higher than that, obviously). But the retirement of a pilot already out on medical, for example, means nothing - it won't make a single reserve a blockholder or a single F/O a Captain. The retirement of a 737 F/O means nothing to any pilot senior to him.

So here's the important questions:

- How many vacant positions will be made available by retirements in the next 5 years? After all, a retirement that doesn't leave a vacancy behind creates no movement.

- How many meaningful retirements in the top 1000 East pilots during the next 5 years? These will let everyone below them advance.

- How many in the next 1000 East pilots? They'll mean nothing to the top 1000.

- How many in the 3rd 1000? They'll mean nothing to the top 2000.

- And so on - you get the idea.

Of course, there's the big unknown - the effect if the retirement age is raised.....

Jim

Lets use a thousand as the number. The guy at the bottom of the EAST list (1987 hire) or the 16+ year furlough will benefit from the vacancies created unless they themselves retire in the next five years. Unless the airline parks 100 aircraft to compensate, there will be hundreds of upgrades, hundreds of line positions open, hundreds of vacancies in a larger aircraft, or hundreds of opportunities in a more preferable base. Ten years from now, with the average age of the EAST pilot group, a pilot at the bottom of the list who still has 15 years to go would find himself a wide body captain. That is what East brought to the merger and if the so called pre merger "expectations" were to be met, the integration would need to be in such a way to provide a clear path for that. Unless you want to argue there are no such thing as "expectations", then DOH should rule the day, since that is the single instrument by which pilots at any ALPA carrier are aligned on their own list. Either there is expectation or there isn't. I for one don't believe there is and an objective policy is the only way to go. The argument of who is entitled, whether it the active pilot who was three months at a carrier or the 20 year veteran at the bottom can only lead to disunity and destruction. Well, everyone is witnessing it, and all pilots and ALPA are to blame. Take a look at your paycheck 10 years from now, and see if these policies have helped anything get better. I'd be willing to bet the pension(I have for now anyway), on whether real wages will be better or worse. I know which bet I would take.

 

[john john]

Seniority in terms of DOH only really applies as long as you stay at the company you were hired at,

BINGO!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Lets use a thousand as the number.

Closer, and a little low this time.

The guy at the bottom of the EAST list (1987 hire) or the 16+ year furlough will benefit from the vacancies created unless they themselves retire in the next five years.

Nope - but you probably don't realize that US has pilots retiring from furlough. So that 1987 hire or 16+ year furloughee will get no benefit from more junior pilots retiring.

Then there's the non-active above them on the list. If a pilot who isn't working (disability, etc) retires, what advancement does it result in for the pilots below him on the list? The non-working don't vacate a job when they retire.

You see, US also has a pretty high percentage of non-active pilots who will leave no vacancy behind when they retire. So, nobody will see movement equal to the total amount of attrition. Even the most junior furloughee will only see his actual number change that much, but there won't be recalls above him equal to that change solely due to attrition.

Ten years from now, with the average age of the EAST pilot group, a pilot at the bottom of the list who still has 15 years to go would find himself a wide body captain.

Nope - the last East pilot on the list is #4691 if you extract the West pilots from the award. With under 2500 retirements in the next 10 years, that would make the last pilot #2200+ - a junior Group II Captain. [Edit - I shouldn't say that since the last bid result I have is Jan or Feb. So you tell me, Bud - which "widebody" job will a 2200 seniority number hold?]

That is what East brought to the merger and if the so called pre merger "expectations" were to be met, the integration would need to be in such a way to provide a clear path for that.

As you can see, if the pre-merger expectation was that the most junior East pilot would be a widebody Captain in 10 years because of attrition, the expectation was wrong.

Of course, if you think the arbitrator should have granted everyone's wildest dreams instead of realistic expectations, that's a different story.....

Unfortunately, I don't have a West seniority with DOB and DOH so let's assume for a moment that USA320Pilot was right about West attrition averaging 50/year for the next 10 years - 500 total.

On the arbitrator's list, the junior (East) pilot is #6520. That pilot will benefit from both East and West attrition, or a little under 3000 retirements. So in 10 years (if he hasn't retired) the most junior (East) pilot will be #3500+/-. I can hear it now - see, I told you I was robbed!!!

However, assuming no changes other than attrition, the combined fleet is about 65% bigger than just the East fleet. Which means about 65% more Captains. That means that the current junior East pilot will be - amazing isn't it - a junior Group II captain. [Edit again - You tell me, Bud - with a combined fleet of almost 360 airplanes instead of only the 220 plane East fleet, what will a 3500 seniority number hold?]

Now what's all this about expectations not being being met.....

Jim

[Edit #3]
I finally got out the calculator. The combined fleet is 64% bigger than the East fleet. If that means even 60% more captains, that junior (East) pilot is ever so slightly better off than he would have been staying separate - there are only 59% more people in front of him.

 

[qwerty]

"If this merger disaster stands, the morale problems in the East may very well put this airline out of business."

And how is this better than keeping your seniority (even if it's "valued" at only 3 years and 9 months) and staying in CLT until retirement?

Starting over at WN can't be a better deal, even if hell freezes over and they open a crew base in the Queen City.

 

[hulagirl]

Names erased for obvious reasons.

This is from an East pilot and may help you Westies figure out why the anger and outrage:

Dear XXXX,

There’s a story going around the East crew bases that goes something like this:

An East crew and a West crew found themselves sharing a van ride to the hotel. The West Captain looked at the East Captain and said, “what is it with you guys and date-of-hire?†The East Captain looked to the AWA First Officer and said, “Are you typed on the A320?†The West Pilot replied, “yeah, I am.†The East Captain asked, “well, why is he the Captain and not you?†The West F/O replied, “because he’s senior to me.†The East Captain asked, “why is he senior to you?†The West F/O replied, “he got hired before me.†The East Captain turned to the West Captain and said, “your First Officer gets it, why don’t you?â€

This story plays well in the East because there’s a serious truism here. You and the West Pilots you represent order your seniority by date-of-hire. The relationship between your Pilots was, is, and will always be; date-of-hire. You wouldn’t consider any other way of doing it because it is the way you have always done it.

Our two Pilot groups are destined to become one and spend years together. If this merger disaster stands, the morale problems in the East may very well put this airline out of business. Take a look around you and at your fellow pilots – what would the effect be on West operations if your list was arbitrarily re-ordered tomorrow? How would you feel if you were suddenly required to jerk gear for someone who was hired 3 years and 9 months ago? Put yourself in my shoes and the shoes of thousands of original US Airways Pilots.

Nicolau’s decision is a nice shiny toy that fell from the sky and I am aware that most AWA pilots somehow feel entitled to push ahead of me in the waiting line for a Captain’s bid. Losing the essence of something you’ve never had will be difficult. But I have held a Boeing Captain bid in Charlotte, our most senior crew base. My expectations were, and are, to recapture that Captain bid soon based on the attrition I know is coming from fellow East Pilots who are retiring.

I’m a First Officer and I get it. Why don’t you?

Fraternally,

XXXXXXXX

757/767 F/O


Former Army Helicopter Pilot, Maintenance Officer and Instructor Pilot

Hired in June 1987, 20 years longevity next month

Never furloughed -- Never scabbed -- Never in bad standing

ALPA experience includes: MEC Communications, Media Spokesman, Strike Prep Committee

I received my 2007 ALPA-PAC Capitol Club Member sticker in the mail yesterday

I am slotted one number junior to an AWA pilot who was a teenager when I was hired

I am slotted one number junior to an AWA pilot who has been here 3 years and nine months

Why did your ALPA rep's agree on the arbitrator?

 

[Pi brat]

Closer, and a little low this time.
Nope - but you probably don't realize that US has pilots retiring from furlough. So that 1987 hire or 16+ year furloughee will get no benefit from more junior pilots retiring.

Then there's the non-active above them on the list. If a pilot who isn't working (disability, etc) retires, what advancement does it result in for the pilots below him on the list? The non-working don't vacate a job when they retire.

You see, US also has a pretty high percentage of non-active pilots who will leave no vacancy behind when they retire. So, nobody will see movement equal to the total amount of attrition. Even the most junior furloughee will only see his actual number change that much, but there won't be recalls above him equal to that change solely due to attrition.
Nope - the last East pilot on the list is #4691 if you extract the West pilots from the award. With under 2500 retirements in the next 10 years, that would make the last pilot #2200+ - a junior Group II Captain. [Edit - I shouldn't say that since the last bid result I have is Jan or Feb. So you tell me, Bud - which "widebody" job will a 2200 seniority number hold?]
As you can see, if the pre-merger expectation was that the most junior East pilot would be a widebody Captain in 10 years because of attrition, the expectation was wrong.

Of course, if you think the arbitrator should have granted everyone's wildest dreams instead of realistic expectations, that's a different story.....

Unfortunately, I don't have a West seniority with DOB and DOH so let's assume for a moment that USA320Pilot was right about West attrition averaging 50/year for the next 10 years - 500 total.

On the arbitrator's list, the junior (East) pilot is #6520. That pilot will benefit from both East and West attrition, or a little under 3000 retirements. So in 10 years (if he hasn't retired) the most junior (East) pilot will be #3500+/-. I can hear it now - see, I told you I was robbed!!!

However, assuming no changes other than attrition, the combined fleet is about 65% bigger than just the East fleet. Which means about 65% more Captains. That means that the current junior East pilot will be - amazing isn't it - a junior Group II captain. [Edit again - You tell me, Bud - with a combined fleet of almost 360 airplanes instead of only the 220 plane East fleet, what will a 3500 seniority number hold?]

Now what's all this about expectations not being being met.....

Jim

[Edit #3]
I finally got out the calculator. The combined fleet is 64% bigger than the East fleet. If that means even 60% more captains, that junior (East) pilot is ever so slightly better off than he would have been staying separate - there are only 59% more people in front of him.

Jim,

I figured with your experience on the bid closing committe you would have a pretty good grasp on the effect of attrition and the seniority list. After looking at the info for a while I came to the conclusion that I couldn't really figure out how this would affect me without a side by side comparison of pre merger and post merger of progression , taking into account the non active pilots.

But, here the rub with me, and it's all about me, now . I'm around 1900 on the US list. I would like to hold a capt bid on the A320 in CLT til my last 5-10 years then bid capt on the 330. I would have been, lets just say, less than number 3 on the list at 60, now I have around 120 AWA guys senior and younger than me. I have about 900 net AWA guys now senior to me. So, as the attrition comes those 900 guys can bid the CLT capt postions before me if they want(the I don't want to go east doesn't make feel better-lots of USAir and PSA guys came to CLT, didn't they), and they can all bid the widebody capt before me(same with that I don't want to fly to Europe claim). They had no expectation of that, now they can have it before me. I see that as a windfall, just as the ability of USAir guys that want to go west got. I guess it's not the list construction that gets me, it's the lack of fences for anyone but the top.

On another thread you said that USAir guys wanted their attrition and the west's. That's painting us all with a pretty big brush. I would have expected that from an AWA guy that didn't ever work with us, but I have a hard time believing that everyone you worked with over here was like that. I'm not.

 

[CO738]

A friend of mine is a lead FA for US/West since Day 1. Her words regarding the merger - "So, when I wake up tomorrow, if I have a job, the merger was worth it." ... US/East was sinking like the Titanic, and the union wanted to rearrange the deck chairs. Now that it's treading water, they're fighting over the life boats...