The Second Coming.......
- Thread starter delldude
- Start date
gilbertguy
Senior
- Aug 29, 2002
- 368
- 0
This war may end sooner than later.....will US defer those 5% paycuts or will it be dragged out for infinity? Like temporary tax increases, will it live on and on and be absorbed into our lives? What excuse will be used after the war and it no longer can be used for US woes.....will US file once again?
gilbertguy
Senior
- Aug 29, 2002
- 368
- 0
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On 4/3/2003 10
40 AM DCAflyer wrote:
First, they aren''t paycuts, they are pay deferrals. The company can continue charging the deferals against your pay for 18 months, or until the first month the company books a profit, whichever occurs first. At that point, the company must begin repaying all sums they deferred. I don''t believe the comapny will again file C-11 unless they are in really big trouble, because companies are limited to the number of reoganizations they can apply for ( believe it''s three) at which time they must liquidate.
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When an employer cuts your pay, it''s a paycut....but we get back to the basic question, after the war we will have troops over there for at least the 18 months, will the 5% stay in affect? Fuel prices, low pax loads and mis-management can(will) still exist, so profit will remain elusive....how does the company define wartime conditions?On 4/3/2003 10
40 AM DCAflyer wrote: First, they aren''t paycuts, they are pay deferrals. The company can continue charging the deferals against your pay for 18 months, or until the first month the company books a profit, whichever occurs first. At that point, the company must begin repaying all sums they deferred. I don''t believe the comapny will again file C-11 unless they are in really big trouble, because companies are limited to the number of reoganizations they can apply for ( believe it''s three) at which time they must liquidate.
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First, they aren't paycuts, they are pay deferrals. The company can continue charging the deferals against your pay for 18 months, or until the first month the company books a profit, whichever occurs first. At that point, the company must begin repaying all sums they deferred. I don't believe the comapny will again file C-11 unless they are in really big trouble, because companies are limited to the number of reoganizations they can apply for ( believe it's three) at which time they must liquidate.
nycbusdriver
Veteran
Even though the 5% reductions are pay DEFERRALS, and they are contractually limited to 18 months maximum, is anyone still delusional enough to think those contractual stipulations mean ANYTHING?
If Dave want''s the 5% longer than 18 months, he will put the liquidation gun to our heads once again. (If the economy doesn''t start to turn really quickly, Dave will probably be back within 6 months demanding more than 5%.) If Dave wants to keep the 5% "deferrals," he will simply say the company can''t afford to pay it back.
Union negotiated labor contracts are meaningless for the foreseeable future.
If Dave want''s the 5% longer than 18 months, he will put the liquidation gun to our heads once again. (If the economy doesn''t start to turn really quickly, Dave will probably be back within 6 months demanding more than 5%.) If Dave wants to keep the 5% "deferrals," he will simply say the company can''t afford to pay it back.
Union negotiated labor contracts are meaningless for the foreseeable future.
ExitPointer
Member
- Aug 20, 2002
- 31
- 0
Per the AFA Restructuring Agreement:
WAR CONTINGENCY: In the event that (a) the U.S. invades Iraq (meaning that the U.S. initiates a sustained aerial bombardment of those parts of Iraq that are not within the current no fly zone or introduces substantial numbers of ground troops into the territory of Iraq), or (B) there is an act of terrorism which in either event has a material adverse impact on commercial aviation, there will be an immediate 5% pay deferral for up to 18 months. The deferral will begin to be repaid starting in the first month following the end of the deferral and will continue to be repaid in as many monthly installments as were covered by the deferral. In the event that US Airways Group reports a pretax profit with respect to any quarter during which the pay deferral is in effect, the deferral will immediately stop and repayment will begin in the next month to continue for the same number of months as were included in the deferral. Management employees will participate in this provision on the same terms as other employee groups.
NOTE! The profit clause states "quarter" not "month".
Best to all.
WAR CONTINGENCY: In the event that (a) the U.S. invades Iraq (meaning that the U.S. initiates a sustained aerial bombardment of those parts of Iraq that are not within the current no fly zone or introduces substantial numbers of ground troops into the territory of Iraq), or (B) there is an act of terrorism which in either event has a material adverse impact on commercial aviation, there will be an immediate 5% pay deferral for up to 18 months. The deferral will begin to be repaid starting in the first month following the end of the deferral and will continue to be repaid in as many monthly installments as were covered by the deferral. In the event that US Airways Group reports a pretax profit with respect to any quarter during which the pay deferral is in effect, the deferral will immediately stop and repayment will begin in the next month to continue for the same number of months as were included in the deferral. Management employees will participate in this provision on the same terms as other employee groups.
NOTE! The profit clause states "quarter" not "month".
Best to all.
fatherabraham
Veteran
- Sep 27, 2002
- 814
- 354
Gilbertguy,
With the pay cuts I like all am barely getting by.
History indicates spouse and I have been negligent in cash savings during better times. So I am looking at the optimistic side of "forced" saving 5% over the next 18 months, with the associated risk of U BK going forward. Maybe it will work out better than the small fortune I lost on U stock.
Btw, how does the title " The second coming..." apply?
With the pay cuts I like all am barely getting by.
History indicates spouse and I have been negligent in cash savings during better times. So I am looking at the optimistic side of "forced" saving 5% over the next 18 months, with the associated risk of U BK going forward. Maybe it will work out better than the small fortune I lost on U stock.
Btw, how does the title " The second coming..." apply?
genejockey
Advanced
- Aug 22, 2002
- 157
- 0
Yes, it is a pay defferal, but to each employee, it certainly is felt as a pay cut. There is no getting around it. Moreover, this defferal, in essence, is a no interest loan...more debt on top of a mountain of debt. My only hope is that Dave uses this money very wisely.
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
NOTE!! In Siegel''s letter...Dear collegue, it states that the state of the company will be assessed monthly. I am percieving this with regard to the 5%, since the purpose of that mailing was to explain the 5% "trigger". Most sentiment out there believes that this war will last one more month at best. I will find it hightly disingenuous of this mangement to continue to keep this deferral and have it turn into a "wind fall" for the company in light of the suffering of its employees who were "under the gun" when they signed those winter agreements.
Time will tell if this mangement, indeed, cares about the morale of its employees.
Time will tell if this mangement, indeed, cares about the morale of its employees.
gilbertguy
Senior
- Aug 29, 2002
- 368
- 0
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On 4/3/2003 11:30:33 AM fatherabraham wrote:
Gilbertguy,
With the pay cuts I like all am barely getting by.
History indicates spouse and I have been negligent in cash savings during better times. So I am looking at the optimistic side of "forced" saving 5% over the next 18 months, with the associated risk of U BK going forward. Maybe it will work out better than the small fortune I lost on U stock.
Btw, how does the title " The second coming..." apply?
No biblical connotations here father......just an observation about the return of management for more out-of-pocket dipping......my best to you and your family.....but keep the faith...at some point it has to go up....
On 4/3/2003 11:30:33 AM fatherabraham wrote:
Gilbertguy,
With the pay cuts I like all am barely getting by.
History indicates spouse and I have been negligent in cash savings during better times. So I am looking at the optimistic side of "forced" saving 5% over the next 18 months, with the associated risk of U BK going forward. Maybe it will work out better than the small fortune I lost on U stock.
Btw, how does the title " The second coming..." apply?
No biblical connotations here father......just an observation about the return of management for more out-of-pocket dipping......my best to you and your family.....but keep the faith...at some point it has to go up....
Tim Nelson
Veteran
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On 4/3/2003 9:30:30 AM delldude wrote:
there are contractual provisions i think with all the labor groups spelling out what when and how its dealt with.
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On 4/3/2003 9:30:30 AM delldude wrote:
there are contractual provisions i think with all the labor groups spelling out what when and how its dealt with.
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Yes, there are contractual provisions but don''t bank on getting your 5% back. It''s not guaranteed.
What I mean is this; in 18 months, US AIRWAYS will have to shell out deferral pay in the hundreds of millions. I haven''t done the math but at any rate let''s just say a substantial bit of change.
Now, grant you, the following opinion is just assumed but I think it is a reasonable one and at least as valid as any other forward looking opinion, i.e.; that US AIRWAYS may still be hemorraging in or out of Bankruptcy at that time and tell its employees it simply doesn''t have the money without tanking the airline. Would you agree that it is certainly a possible bargaining position. Some might even go further and say it is the ''design'' of the deferral to do such a thing.
Now the question is, do you trust that your union [after their rhetoric of course] will enter a new bargaining room without employee consent to do so?
And lastly, where have we seen this before?
At any rate, we all hope to receive our 5% deferral payback in full but I am cautious to accept it as something guaranteed just because it is in contract form.
gilbertguy
Senior
- Aug 29, 2002
- 368
- 0
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On 4/3/2003 11:55:25 AM genejockey wrote:
Yes, it is a pay defferal, but to each employee, it certainly is felt as a pay cut. There is no getting around it. Moreover, this defferal, in essence, is a no interest loan...more debt on top of a mountain of debt. My only hope is that Dave uses this money very wisely.
What''s really scary is these same folks at CCY have just been handed a check for $1.4 BILLION and STILL they will take more.....
On 4/3/2003 11:55:25 AM genejockey wrote:
Yes, it is a pay defferal, but to each employee, it certainly is felt as a pay cut. There is no getting around it. Moreover, this defferal, in essence, is a no interest loan...more debt on top of a mountain of debt. My only hope is that Dave uses this money very wisely.
What''s really scary is these same folks at CCY have just been handed a check for $1.4 BILLION and STILL they will take more.....
