The demise of an airline

[curious1]

I am just curious if anyone knows what actually did TWA in. At one time TWA was making money and was a big airline but somewhere along the way they got into big trouble and got acquired by American Airlines. Was it the ticket scam with Carl Icahn, Southwest Airlines in their STL hub, not having enough hubs, selling LHR routs or what. I am just curious to know what was the cause(s) of TWA getting into trouble and filing for BK
(PS I just want to hear about TWA and not the closing of their STL hub, or seniority issues, but only why TWA was having survival problems before being acquired by American Airlines).

Thanks

 

[MCI transplant]

I am just curious if anyone knows what actually did TWA in. At one time TWA was making money and was a big airline but somewhere along the way they got into big trouble and got acquired by American Airlines. Was it the ticket scam with Carl Icahn, Southwest Airlines in their STL hub, not having enough hubs, selling LHR routs or what. I am just curious to know what was the cause(s) of TWA getting into trouble and filing for BK
(PS I just want to hear about TWA and not the closing of their STL hub, or seniority issues, but only why TWA was having survival problems before being acquired by American Airlines).

Thanks

<_< ----- One man's opinion.----- It was all of the above, but I feel it started before any of that. There was a time when TWA bought up other companies, in other fields, as a hedge against bad times. The powers to be at TWA set up a parent Corp. to oversee the Airline and all it's other assets, that were bought and paid for with Airline (TWA) money. That Company was named "Trans World Corp." The Companies it over saw were: TWA, Hilton International, (the Hotel chain,) Century 21, (real estate) Spartan Foods, (Vending Machines, and catering) Hardies Hamburgers,----- and others.----- Well, to make a long, sad story short, when times got bad for the Airlines, instead of all of the above companies helping TWA with it's bottom line, a few greedy people decide to spin the Airline off, legally separating it from the company that paid for them to begin with!------ The rest is history!

 

[Winglet]

IMHO - Managers in the United States these days have zero loyalty or allegiance to anything but themselves. They see themselves as super-class above the petty concerns of an industry or nation-state. It's all about money (mostly money for THEM). Companies are "things" to make THEM money. There are no "airline guys" or "car guys" anymore. Only traders. To managers, it doesn't matter if they're selling washing machines, ponzi scheme securities, airline tickets, or popsickle sticks. If they can make a quick buck by killing a long-standing company, then so be it. It's not that they are immoral. It's that they are amoral.

 

[Barfbag]

In the airline abyss of the early eighties, that any airline could survive at all, was a miracle.

A better question is why did AMR survive, through those same years.

I can only think of one answer, Robert Crandall

 

[PHL]

TWA was having a hard time, financially, after the gulf war (Desert Storm 1991). The rise of all the low cost carriers certainly didn't help, either. And, the flight 800 disaster in 1996 came at a very bad time for them(not that any time is good for something like that). Then came the down turn after 9/11/01, which was more like pouring salt an a very bad wound that was already pretty deep.

There's so much nostalgia around TWA and I love reading anything I can find on the history. I'm glad to have gotten to traverse Terminal 5 at JFK when TWA had a full operation there, too. I'm a big fan of former TWA Captain Barry Schiff who has a monthly column in AOPA Pilot. He often writes about those golden days of aviation with excellent stories of his time at the airline.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< -----Another major turning point was when a curtain former TWA CEO enlisted Frank Lorenzo to make a run on TWA. He was Teed at the Unions for getting the better of him, and the Company, after a brief walk out by the IAM. He amused a $400 million Dollar war chest to deal with further Contract disputes, and had the smarts to brag about it, and how undervalued TWA stock was at that time, at a Bankers Convention in L.A.!------ And guess who was in the audience?----- You guess it! Uncle Carl Ichan!!!----- Ichan asked a few questions, and got on the phone to start buying up TWA stock! So now the Unions had one hell've a dilemma on their hands. ------Our CEO was handing over control of TWA to Frank Lorenzo on the one hand! And Carl Ichan buying up stock on the other!----- The Unions sided with Uncle Carl, who was more of an unknown at the time!------ As it turned out, we had jumped from the frying pan into the fire! :angry:

 

[kirkpatrick]

Then came the down turn after 9/11/01, which was more like pouring salt an a very bad wound that was already pretty deep.

9/11 was not a factor, as the AA/TWA sale was consumated on 4/9/01, almost six months earlier.

MK

 

[PHL]

9/11 was not a factor, as the AA/TWA sale was consumated on 4/9/01, almost six months earlier.

MK

Thanks for the clarification. I somehow thought that transaction was announced after 9/11.

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

Flight 800 which was brought down by an errant government missile.

Sad.

 

[Barfbag]

Don't forget a major chapter, TWA sells all 5 LHR routes to AMR.

With that sale to Crandal's AMR ( for a pittance, $ 700M. ). Icahn basically castrated TWA, and the bleeding never stopped.

There was alot of broken airline chum in the water, and the sharks were waiting.

 

[MCI transplant]

Don't forget a major chapter, TWA sells all 5 LHR routes to AMR.

With that sale to Crandal's AMR ( for a pittance, $ 700M. ). Icahn basically castrated TWA, and the bleeding never stopped.

There was alot of broken airline chum in the water, and the sharks were waiting.

<_< ----- And not a dime of that went back into the Airline!-----Oh! And let's not forget about Ichan's "Caribou"! :down:

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ----- All of a sudden, this line is starting to depress me!!! :down:

 

[eolesen]

TW's demise was ultimately STL. Everyone saw it as the perfect mid-continent hub, but it had been a declining local market for years. Hubs don't work without a local market to sustain it. My guess is it has to generate at least 40% of the overall traffic. Place like ORD support 50% local traffic for AA and UA. MIA's somewhat of an anomaly at 30%.

When you have a good international mix like JFK, LAX, MIA, you can offset some of the local market deficit, but STL had lots of competition to Europe, and not a lot else to offer...

That was the case before Icahn got there, and it didn't get any better.

 

[PHL]

Flight 800 which was brought down by an errant government missile.

I thought the NTSB was pretty conclusive in its finding of the faulty fuel tank wiring. I also know there are more conspiracy theorists on this accident than 9/11 and JFK's assassination combined, but the missile theory is based on no hard evidence whatsoever. I knew people on that flight, and I know a former TW captain who knew the crew. He and I would both love to point the fingers in the right place, and as of now we are still satisfied with the official findings.

 

[MCI transplant]

I thought the NTSB was pretty conclusive in its finding of the faulty fuel tank wiring. I also know there are more conspiracy theorists on this accident than 9/11 and JFK's assassination combined, but the missile theory is based on no hard evidence whatsoever. I knew people on that flight, and I know a former TW captain who knew the crew. He and I would both love to point the fingers in the right place, and as of now we are still satisfied with the official findings.

<_< ----- PHL, It's sounds like you've made up your mind on this. But 40 plus years of Aircraft experience, and having worked on that, and other 747's, tells me that what the Government is telling us is a lie, from beginning to end!----- What I'm not sure about is if flt.800 was downed by stray U.S. missiles, or if it was really downed by terrorists, and was really the first shot of the war on terror, and not 9/11!---- What I do know is that a short in the center fuel tank was not the cause of that tragedy!------ If your open minded enough to take some time and click on the links I'm giving you, and watch the evidance that the Government don't want you to see,------ than come back and tell me I'm wrong!!!

Never forget!
part 1-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6BUXu0AEpg...feature=related
part 2-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUhKDRfX3Po...feature=related
part 3-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y79B5UQXAA...feature=related
part 4-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRm8zqK1sVc...feature=related
part 5-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em6hZ-ZKsRc...feature=related
part 6-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7Nm2Ql1-qk...feature=related