"The days of airlines being fun and lucrative, that's over," said aviation industry consultant Mike

[jimntx]

Should a company under the guise of bankruptcy panhandle corporate compensation in court, while suggesting dumpster diving as a means to surviving layoffs/termination to the workers they deem as "gum on their gucci loafers"? NO !!

I don't believe I ever said or implied anything like that.

As for the seniority issue at AA, I'm happy you don't have to experience what other legacy carrier employees are experiencing. However, if you see the Us Airways/ Northwest management "virus" heading your way, I suggest you urge your union to open your contract to address what might happen to you if AA decides to follow the lemming approach to survival.

Beside the point of what I was posting. And, if you look at the AA/TWA or AA/Reno acquisitions, as a nAAtive f/a, I have nothing to worry about. The f/as in the acquired company are the ones who need to worry. (And, I'm one of the people that thinks that the TWA f/as were badly treated. Reno was before my time so I can't really comment there.)

Also, the union has an obligation to represent it's members
so you as well as other employees are are not terminated at will. If the union is fighting to get your co-workers job re-instated perhaps there is more to situation than meets the eye. The union cannot protect an employee who violates the company's terms for termination.

I'm well aware of the DFR provision. However, if the f/a is fired twice for cause--and call me old-fashioned, but I think telling a passenger to go "f*** yourself" is a for cause action--the union can say, "We will represent you in your appeal, but you have to pay for the lawyer." In this case, the union is bearing all the costs. And, again, I would have no problem with her returning to the company in a non-flying status, but from what I've been told, she's dangerous. Runs up and down the aisles screaming, etc.

 

[PITbull]

Also, the union has an obligation to represent it's members
so you as well as other employees are are not terminated at will. If the union is fighting to get your co-workers job re-instated perhaps there is more to situation than meets the eye. The union cannot protect an employee who violates the company's terms for termination. I witnessed employees who were terminated for that reason, and the union could not get their jobs back. However, if one employee is terminated and another is not, for a violation, then its a different matter.

I experienced management who violated federal law, were sued, (settled out of court) and still kept their jobs. To add insult to injury, they continued to portray the same management style.

My experience as well.

 

[700UW]

Jim,

The union is bound by law to represent, they also dont have to take the case to arbitration.

But they cant make the member pay for it as that is what the dues money is for.

And it is a union rep's job to represent, not judge.

 

[kicked2curb]

so sorry for the multiple posts

 

[jimntx]

Jim,

The union is bound by law to represent, they also dont have to take the case to arbitration.

But they cant make the member pay for it as that is what the dues money is for.

And it is a union rep's job to represent, not judge.

According to what I was told by a union officer, on a 2nd termination for the same friggin reason with witnesses who were f/as on the same flight, yes they can make the member pay in our situation.

Union rep doesn't have to judge, but when other f/as and passengers involved show up to testify for the company, the union rep can try to get the fired employee to see reason. You have to understand that f/as are afraid to fly with her. She refuses to take medication or seek any sort of treatment. She is a danger to herself and others.

Would you be doing an employee a favor, or giving them the best representation, if that employee had an obsession to get chopped up in a jet engine and you were fighting to get his/her job as an engine mechanic restored?

 

[PITbull]

According to what I was told by a union officer, on a 2nd termination for the same friggin reason with witnesses who were f/as on the same flight, yes they can make the member pay in our situation.

I can see where this can occur.

At U, if a f/a was brought back to work on a "last chance agreement", and subsequentely was terminated during the effective date of that agreement, the union could file another grievance, but the f/a would have to pay for the legal representation for arbitration if the f/a wanted a grievance pursued.

Often times in this type of scenerio where overturning a second termination is extremely remote if not impossible, depending on the egregious nature for "just cause" terminations, the company will not contest unemployment if the f/a drops the grievance.

 

[nostradamus]

And, the company could just as easily require that you and I push a wheelchair while we are walking from one gate to our next connection. (And, given our current union's willingness to roll over for the company as long as the officers get their tummies scratched, that's probably going to be a concession in the near future. shock.gif )
QUOTE of jimntx

Jim you yourself quoted that management is going to do what they want with F/A’s if they are not stood up to by workers. In the same confusing posts you have been belittling the job requirements of your own profession, telling the same management that you are worried about, that anyone can do your job.

 

[N965VJ]

Interesting debate.

<SNIP> This is what I had been hammering for at least3 years. The disciplines are so harsh and draconian that it is terminating the employees very quickly.

IIRC the average numbers of FAs leaving for whatever reason was about 30 per month pre-9/11. I have no idea what the breakdown was as to why they were leaving, but to be honest, you didn’t hear a lot about people getting canned in those days.

What’s the guestimate of what how many are being terminated per month on average?

 

[nostradamus]

jmntx

Furthermore, why are you off on a weekend with your seniority.
Did you call in sick?

 

[PITbull]

Interesting debate.
IIRC the average numbers of FAs leaving for whatever reason was about 30 per month pre-9/11. I have no idea what the breakdown was as to why they were leaving, but to be honest, you didn’t hear a lot about people getting canned in those days.

What’s the guestimate of what how many are being terminated per month on average?

Actually, pre 9/11, received the monthly reports on attrtion, and it was on an average approx. 6 (includes terminations, retirements and resignations.

Post 9/11 and AFTER concession #2 ratification during 2003, and after the DCP disciplines changed in late Jan. of that year to terminate employees more quickly in the discipline process, the attrition noticably jumped between 30 and 60-70 per month, with no "recall of furloughees" (I kept track of those things as it was my job to do so). By Dec. 2004, there was a drastic shortage of f/a noticably in PHL(and that was just citing our group). Case in point, as the empirical evidence presented, "christmas PHL meltdown".

The company was alerted via e-mails late NOV that the company may have a major problem with staffing due to retirements and the increase in overall attrition. They did not respond.

 

[Bear96]

. . . The short version of the Federal Age Discrmination Law is that you can not refuse to hire or promote an employee on the basis of age alone if that employee is between the ages of 40 and 65. . . .

Not quite.

The federal age discrimination law (the Age Discrimination in Employment Act, or ADEA, 29 U.S.C. S 621 et seq.) applies to employees age 40 and over (assuming the employer falls under the Act as well). There is no maximum age limit.

 

[willyloman]

Jimntx: Flawless logic on your part, and one that reflects true economic reality since the days of Adam Smith. It's a pity F/As do not seem to want to believe that their job has been in the past and still is today, considered a temporary, one year to 18 month entry level job where they would "see the world", catch a husband, or continue their education in preparation for a lucrative, permanent job. It's been that way ever since FA positions were established early on in the airline industry. If many have fallen into the trap of making it a "career choice," I'm sorry, but that's life, and they have to take what happens when the airline industry undergoes dramatic changes.

 

[PITbull]

Jimntx: If many have fallen into the trap of making it a "career choice," I'm sorry, but that's life, and they have to take what happens when the airline industry undergoes dramatic changes.

Flawless logic you say...a "Career trap"... how so?

Thousands of f/as have retired on this career with a pension. As a 25 year f/a with a pension coming, I think that I am much better off today (even though the defined pension was terminated), will receive a define benefit, V.S. not staying with the employment for 25 years and not having a define benefit that I did not have to contribute to other than years of service.

The f/as before me and those that stayed as I did, have a benefit that Jimntx will not receive.

And obviously, your post shows that the wage for the last 30-40 year CAREER offered much to the profession and the f/as who stayed. I was able to receive a second degree with the job flexibilty and raise a family as a single person. Even worked a second job to improve my condition as the contracts amendablility were 3-5 years apart.

Far from a "trap", my friend. I don't regret not one year of my service to U. I believe that the entire 25 years increased my ability and skill to engage the customer and the business world. And the contracts I worked under offered me great opportunities to go to school, raise of family, hold the job, and improve my marketability.

Nope. No regrets. No pity needed. I owe gratitude to those f/as who fought to improve the work place, make it enjoyable profession and rewarding. And in return, the Company became a huge franchise and profitable for not only the investors, execs, but employees. Synergy; its about synergy. Well worth 25 years, indeed. However, bet you can't say the same if you were hopping around job to job for the past 25 years.

History has a way of repeating. And what you see today or the past 3 years doesn't mean the decline in the profession is forever. Its just over for those who share your mentality.
If I thought that, I wouldn't be on here almost daily even after my exit.

 

[nostradamus]

Jimntx: Flawless logic on your part, and one that reflects true economic reality since the days of Adam Smith. It's a pity F/As do not seem to want to believe that their job has been in the past and still is today, considered a temporary, one year to 18 month entry level job where they would "see the world", catch a husband, or continue their education in preparation for a lucrative, permanent job. It's been that way ever since FA positions were established early on in the airline industry. If many have fallen into the trap of making it a "career choice," I'm sorry, but that's life, and they have to take what happens when the airline industry undergoes dramatic changes.

Next time you fly, I suggest you do not inform your F/A of this logic untill after you receive your beverage.

Some of jmntx’s flawless logic.



“Don't get me wrong. I am not denigrating the job of f/a in any way. “

Yes you are, big time.



“For that matter, there's no benefit to the company to pay me $27/hr if they can get someone to do it for $15/hr.â€￾

You are going to end up paying the company so you can work there.



“However, the other side of that coin is a union spending membership dues to get the job back of a f/a who has been fired twice for telling passengers to go "f*** themselves"--in so many words and on the a/c during flight.â€￾


Even murderers are given a lawyer to defend them in this country.

 

[jimntx]

Jim you yourself quoted that management is going to do what they want with F/A’s if they are not stood up to by workers. In the same confusing posts you have been belittling the job requirements of your own profession, telling the same management that you are worried about, that anyone can do your job.

And, the truth of the matter is that my union at AA is a company puppy dog. As long as there are enough f/a dues coming in to pay the bills, the company can do whatever they want with us--See also the horrid bid lines for SEP.

And, I have made it clear for a long time that this is not a hard job--a tiring job, yes, but not hard. Our newhire training--which is longer than most airlines--last 6.5 weeks. The basic requirements are a HS diploma (college preferred), age 20 or older, good physical health including hearing and vision within certain ranges, and be able to pass a Federal background check. You can even have a felony on your record as long as it doesn't fall in certain categories--such as air piracy, terrorist acts.

jmntx

Furthermore, why are you off on a weekend with your seniority.
Did you call in sick?

No, I have used exactly 3 sick days in the past 2 years. As far as how am I holding weekends off--beats me.

Other than...
1. There are f/as senior to me who are either not bidding or don't know how to bid correctly.
2. A lot of f/as look at the line I am holding and go "EWWW. It's a 14-day line. No way am I bidding that."
Actually it's a 10.5 day line. Yes, there are 7 2-day trips on my line. But, the second day ends at 10:45am, and I am on the 12 noon flight back to Dallas. I am gone from my Dallas condo less than 44 hours to work a 2 day trip and that includes spending the night before the trip at my STL crashpad.
3. To be totally honest, I did have one weekend trip on my line, but I traded it with another trip in Open time on a Thurs-Friday that ended at 9:00AM on Friday!