"The days of airlines being fun and lucrative, that's over," said aviation industry consultant Mike

[jimntx]

Shedding senior employees for the sake of the bottom line IS a form of age discrimination, and should be addressed legally.

Well, if f/as are any example. AA is totally in the clear. I'm 61 and our #1 f/a started flying for American when I was in the 2nd grade.

There should be an obligation on a company to pay for retraining or schooling of workers who are sacrificed for the balance sheet.

Well, but if a company chooses not to shed extraneous workers and goes out of business instead and all employees lose their jobs, is this better?

Also, when the automobile was invented should all the buggy whip manufacturers have been required to retrain their workers as auto mechanics?

Pensions and benefits once promised to an employee should not be arbitrarily abrogated.

Absolutely! Can I have an AMEN from the choir? It is totally beyond reason that someone could work for a company for 30 or 40 years expecting a pension and then be denied it at the last minute. What happened to the pilots at US Air is beyond unfair. There are retired accountants from US Air that will get larger pensions from the PBGC than pilots because of the penalty for retiring prior to age 65. And, the fact that another law requires pilots to retire at 60 is of no consequence to the PBGC.

Also, companies can age discriminate by virtue of your resume or empoyment application. Today's work force is being brain washed into complacency, because the labor movement is systematically being destroyed by corporate America's ability to prevent meaningful labor legislation. People tend to forget that Labor Union members fought for the benefits both union & non-union workers deserve.

No argument here. However, acknowledging the fact that age discrimination is going on and proving that age discrimination is going on are two different things. There are any number of ways to not hire someone that are perfectly legal without documenting on the application that you are not hiring the person because they are black, or Catholic, or over 50.

I have a friend who was a topnotch manager at Texaco and an almost genius in the Information Technology field--earning in 6 figures annually. After Chevron bought Texaco she was forced out of her job through office politics. She went over two years unemployed because she is over 50, short and fat (very). She interviewed for some jobs that the job description sounded as if it were copied straight from her resume, but people younger, slimmer, and male were hired instead. She is the first to acknowledge that her age and her weight are handicaps in today's job market. She is also the first to acknowledge that there is no way for her to prove that in court. No company is dumb enough to put in writing "don't hire the fat older woman."

I don't deny that a lot of the benefits that most workers take for granted today--such as paid vacations and the 40-hr work week--are the direct result of union activism. However, the other side of that coin is a union spending membership dues to get the job back of a f/a who has been fired twice for telling passengers to go "f*** themselves"--in so many words and on the a/c during flight. Other f/as are afraid to fly with her because she does not have all her chairs pulled up to the table, but our union is fighting to get her reinstated as a flight attendant. I would have no problem with her having a job where safety was not an issue and she did not have direct public contact, but the union seems to think that seniority trumps customer service or safety.

 

[PITbull]

Today's work force is being brain washed into complacency, because the labor movement is systematically being destroyed by corporate America's ability to prevent meaningful labor legislation. People tend to forget that Labor Union members fought for the benefits both union & non-union workers deserve.

There has been no true-er words cited on any post than what you posted...this is intelligence.

Thank you!

Let me be the first to welcome you and your insightfulness to this forum.

Been waiting a long time for someone like you to show up on the scene.

 

[jimntx]

There has been no truer words cited on any post than what you posted...this is intelligence.

Thank you!

Let me be the first to welcome you and your insightfulness to this forum.

Been waiting a long time for someone like you to show up on the scene.

So, I take it that anyone who disagrees with you is neither intelligent nor insightful.

 

[PITbull]

So, I take it that anyone who disagrees with you is neither intelligent nor insightful.

ah, no. Just basically, complacency and lack of courage, frankly nauseates me.



[quote name='smorzando' date='Aug 26 2006, 12:14 PM' post='410129']Folks,

Hope you are preparing to get inconvenienced in the future with any carrier you fly...cause its going to get ugly out there.

Nothing will happen, absolutely nothing. Being a F/A is not the same as being a nurse or those other careers you pointed out, not even close. You can't accept what plain simple truth was just laid out for you. You can have a stroke with your famous emotional rants which solve nothing, you can call me sick, twisted whatever you choose because it really doesn't matter in the least but only makes you look old worn out and very bitter towards a world that has changed while you were screaming at it. Chaos, yes chaos in your spirit only.
[/quote

I've done both...have you? What's your point of reference, besides the same old tired rant..."I hate IAM????

Bitter towards the world???... Kettle meet Black.

 

[jimntx]

ah, no. Just basically, complacency and lack of courage, frankly nauseates me.

And, exactly how does acknowledging the facts of a situation translate into complacency or cowardice?

FYI, I tried to involve myself in union work and get some changes made for junior flight attendants. (For instance, were you aware that Frontier and SWA f/as can fly free in coach on American regardless of seniority, but I still have to pay service charges because I have less than 5 years?) My union, The Blessed Order of the Perpetually Trip-Removed (the BOPTR, but aka APFA), made it clear to me that my job as a junior flight attendant was to pay my dues and otherwise keep my mouth shut.

 

[PITbull]

And, exactly how does acknowledging the facts of a situation translate into complacency or cowardice?

Again, they are your facts from YOUR perspective of a full 6 years employment as a f/a.

I guess if I were 61 starting at a new job, I'd be happy to get hired...I understand the perspective.

I'm just glad they didn't hire you at U when I was starting out 25 years ago. I don't want to share a bunk with someone who is just so happy to be employed, let alone think they are not worthy of a decent pay for living out of a suitcase for a lifetime. But that's right...you wouldn't have kept the job for 20 years cause it wouldn't have been a career for you. Yea, I forgot. Silly me. Corporate never intended the job to be a career.

 

[jimntx]

Again, they are your facts from YOUR perspective of a full 6 years employment as a f/a.

I guess if I were 61 starting at a new job, I'd be happy to get hired...I understand the perspective.

I'm just glad they didn't hire you at U when I was starting out 25 years ago. I don't want to share a bunk with someone who is just so happy to be employed, let alone think they are not worthy of a decent pay for living out of a suitcase for a lifetime. But that's right...you wouldn't have kept the job for 20 years cause it wouldn't have been a career for you. Yea, I forgot. Silly me. Corporate never intended the job to be a career.

Right-o. B)

First off, you could not be more wrong about my thought processes. I am not "Just so happy to be employed." I work because I choose to. I don't have to. And, I notice you conveniently chose to ignore the rest of my post that suggests that my union might be less than truly representative of ALL the members.

The argument that you automatically know more than I do simply because you have been around longer does not wash with me. It reminds me of the senior f/a who pitched a fit about a PA I made regarding an FAR. To her mind, because she had never heard of the FAR, it didn't exist. And, even after I showed it to her in the manual (it's been in effect since before I started with AA), she still insisted that because she was senior to me, her opinion should prevail.

 

[PITbull]

I don't have to. And, I notice you conveniently chose to ignore the rest of my post that suggests that my union might be less than truly representative of ALL the members.

Let me make it more clear...

Like I said... I understand your perspective at your age, having very little years of service, being that most things in this profession is seniority driven...and by the time the folks with more years of service than you, and are younger than you, leave...you'll be what about 75?

So, what i think you are implying in your lengthy rants is that you want the union to give you some superseniority, or age preferential treatement to get off reserve? Otherwise you feel unrepresented because what...you are running out of time???

We'ren't you furloughed for awhile as well? I see clearly why you think this job should not be some kind of entitlement or "career-thinking", as how in the hell will you move up at your current age? Right? You need these longevity people to just frick'en leave already!!! The union sucks because you got hired late and they aren't representing YOU at your age in direct conflict with your lack of longevity... Am I'm I still confused... "jimntx" and thinking in terms of an unrealistic perspective?????

If you never posted your age, I would have thought more of your posts from a more unbiased perspective. But being you started 6 years ago at age 61 pretty much tells me what side of the "slant" you come from.

 

[jimntx]

Let me make it more clear...

Like I said... I understand your perspective at your age, having very little years of service, being that most things in this profession is seniority driven...and by the time the folks with more years of service than you, and are younger than you, leave...you'll be what about 75?

So, what i think you are implying in your lengthy rants is that you want the union to give you some superseniority, or age preferential treatement to get off reserve? Otherwise you feel unrepresented because what...you are running out of time???

We'ren't you furloughed for awhile as well? I see clearly why you think this job should not be some kind of entitlement or "career-thinking", as how in the hell will you move up at your current age? Right? You need these longevity people to just frick'en leave already!!! The union sucks because you got hired late and they aren't representing YOU at your age in direct conflict with your lack of longevity... Am I'm I still confused... "jimntx" and thinking in terms of an unrealistic perspective?????

If you never posted your age, I would have thought more of your posts from a more unbiased perspective. But being you started 6 years ago at age 61 pretty much tells me what side of the "slant" you come from.

Typical senior flight attendant thinking. I must be after your seniority because I am junior. Not even close, but then you prefer to read what you THINK I meant instead of what I actually said.

As I said before I took the job knowing that I would never clear reserve completely, get the best lines, or be able to have all weekends/holdays off. I have no expectations of the job other than what it is and what it pays.

However, since I pay $41/month in union dues, I do expect my union to consider my needs and, at least, return my calls. At AA, if you have less than 20 years you do not exist to the APFA except when your dues need to be paid. A friend of mine who has 15 years said recently that she could hardly wait until she had 20 years and became real to the union. Of course, by that time, the cutoff date will probably be 25 years.

And, if you can't address what I actually write, don't bother. You don't have a clue what I think or want.

 

[PITbull]

Typical senior flight attendant thinking. I must be after your seniority because I am junior. Not even close, but then you prefer to read what you THINK I meant instead of what I actually said.

As I said before I took the job knowing that I would never clear reserve completely, get the best lines, or be able to have all weekends/holdays off. I have no expectations of the job other than what it is and what it pays.

However, since I pay $41/month in union dues, I do expect my union to consider my needs and, at least, return my calls. At AA, if you have less than 20 years you do not exist to the APFA except when your dues need to be paid. A friend of mine who has 15 years said recently that she could hardly wait until she had 20 years and became real to the union. Of course, by that time, the cutoff date will probably be 25 years.

And, if you can't address what I actually write, don't bother. You don't have a clue what I think or want.

Typical "junior" thinking.

I did address all your issues; you just don't like what I gandered from your posts.

The reality is that you took a job that you knew damn well you wouldn't have enough years to hold a decent line or be off reserve. So, you now focus on the union and find your $41 a total waste since everything is driven by seniority, which you don't have.

I don't think you're after my seniority; I think you "lust" for it.

You should have thought of applying for the job when you were 25. I would BET you would be singing a completely different tune with an entirely different perspective.

I am sure, just as you knew what the f/a job expectation would be for you; you must have known, you would be paying $41 of dues to a union.

If AA is by majority mostly senior folks with over 20 years seniority, the union would have a more difficult time passing a provision that would give you a line of flying at your seniority. However, in AA case, don't they have rotating reserve?

That wouldn't pass at U. Always depends on the voting members of the union, who the provisions effect and how many will be impacted.

The unions have some what the same kind of element with a Republican Administration, Republican House and Senate...(depending on who runs for election and what their perspective is). I'm no Conservative, republican in today's defining platform,(didn't even vote for any of them), but I still pay taxes and have to abide by what these guys turn into law, whether I agree or not; like it, or lump it.

 

[kicked2curb]

Well, if f/as are any example. AA is totally in the clear. I'm 61 and our #1 f/a started flying for American when I was in the 2nd grade.
Well, but if a company chooses not to shed extraneous workers and goes out of business instead and all employees lose their jobs, is this better?

Also, when the automobile was invented should all the buggy whip manufacturers have been required to retrain their workers as auto mechanics?
Absolutely! Can I have an AMEN from the choir? It is totally beyond reason that someone could work for a company for 30 or 40 years expecting a pension and then be denied it at the last minute. What happened to the pilots at US Air is beyond unfair. There are retired accountants from US Air that will get larger pensions from the PBGC than pilots because of the penalty for retiring prior to age 65. And, the fact that another law requires pilots to retire at 60 is of no consequence to the PBGC.
No argument here. However, acknowledging the fact that age discrimination is going on and proving that age discrimination is going on are two different things. There are any number of ways to not hire someone that are perfectly legal without documenting on the application that you are not hiring the person because they are black, or Catholic, or over 50.

I have a friend who was a topnotch manager at Texaco and an almost genius in the Information Technology field--earning in 6 figures annually. After Chevron bought Texaco she was forced out of her job through office politics. She went over two years unemployed because she is over 50, short and fat (very). She interviewed for some jobs that the job description sounded as if it were copied straight from her resume, but people younger, slimmer, and male were hired instead. She is the first to acknowledge that her age and her weight are handicaps in today's job market. She is also the first to acknowledge that there is no way for her to prove that in court. No company is dumb enough to put in writing "don't hire the fat older woman."

I don't deny that a lot of the benefits that most workers take for granted today--such as paid vacations and the 40-hr work week--are the direct result of union activism. However, the other side of that coin is a union spending membership dues to get the job back of a f/a who has been fired twice for telling passengers to go "f*** themselves"--in so many words and on the a/c during flight. Other f/as are afraid to fly with her because she does not have all her chairs pulled up to the table, but our union is fighting to get her reinstated as a flight attendant. I would have no problem with her having a job where safety was not an issue and she did not have direct public contact, but the union seems to think that seniority trumps customer service or safety.

 

[jimntx]

Typical "junior" thinking.

I did address all your issues; you just don't like what I gandered from your posts.

No, you addressed nothing. I can't believe you put that statement at the end when you are using the typical Karl Rove-Republican tactic of attacking the person when you can't argue their facts.

The reality is that you took a job that you knew damn well you wouldn't have enough years to hold a decent line or be off reserve. So, you now focus on the union and find your $41 a total waste since everything is driven by seniority, which you don't have.

I don't think you're after my seniority; I think you "lust" for it.

Well, now that your mind is made up, don't let facts confuse you. I'm neither stupid nor deluded. I took the job simply because I was bored with retirement--though I'm not sure you can call it retirement when you just quit doing what you didn't want to do anymore.

My union dues are a waste because the union does nothing for junior flight attendants. I can't even get my base rep to return my call I made last Monday because I needed representation in a meeting with management. Any time anyone at my seniority objects to the lack of representation, they get the "Well, were you here for the strike of '93..." (or '91 or whenever it was. It lasted all of 3 days.)

If AA is by majority mostly senior folks with over 20 years seniority, the union would have a more difficult time passing a provision that would give you a line of flying at your seniority. However, in AA case, don't they have rotating reserve?

This is what I mean by typical senior f/a thinking. For your information, Miss I Know Because I Am Senior, I am holding my 8th choice line this month. And, I got my 30th choice for next month. This is out of 103 lines total on the bidsheet, and I didn't bid all of them. And, I am the 19th most junior f/a in the base out of almost 500 f/as. What I can or can not hold is not nor has it ever been an issue. That's what I like about reserve months...I get to fly the trips that my seniority prevents me from holding, but that I would get bored with if I had to fly them all the time.

 

[kicked2curb]

Well, if f/as are any example. AA is totally in the clear. I'm 61 and our #1 f/a started flying for American when I was in the 2nd grade.
Well, but if a company chooses not to shed extraneous workers and goes out of business instead and all employees lose their jobs, is this better?

Also, when the automobile was invented should all the buggy whip manufacturers have been required to retrain their workers as auto mechanics?
Absolutely! Can I have an AMEN from the choir? It is totally beyond reason that someone could work for a company for 30 or 40 years expecting a pension and then be denied it at the last minute. What happened to the pilots at US Air is beyond unfair. There are retired accountants from US Air that will get larger pensions from the PBGC than pilots because of the penalty for retiring prior to age 65. And, the fact that another law requires pilots to retire at 60 is of no consequence to the PBGC.
No argument here. However, acknowledging the fact that age discrimination is going on and proving that age discrimination is going on are two different things. There are any number of ways to not hire someone that are perfectly legal without documenting on the application that you are not hiring the person because they are black, or Catholic, or over 50.

I have a friend who was a topnotch manager at Texaco and an almost genius in the Information Technology field--earning in 6 figures annually. After Chevron bought Texaco she was forced out of her job through office politics. She went over two years unemployed because she is over 50, short and fat (very). She interviewed for some jobs that the job description sounded as if it were copied straight from her resume, but people younger, slimmer, and male were hired instead. She is the first to acknowledge that her age and her weight are handicaps in today's job market. She is also the first to acknowledge that there is no way for her to prove that in court. No company is dumb enough to put in writing "don't hire the fat older woman."

I don't deny that a lot of the benefits that most workers take for granted today--such as paid vacations and the 40-hr work week--are the direct result of union activism. However, the other side of that coin is a union spending membership dues to get the job back of a f/a who has been fired twice for telling passengers to go "f*** themselves"--in so many words and on the a/c during flight. Other f/as are afraid to fly with her because she does not have all her chairs pulled up to the table, but our union is fighting to get her reinstated as a flight attendant. I would have no problem with her having a job where safety was not an issue and she did not have direct public contact, but the union seems to think that seniority trumps customer service or safety.

Should a company under the guise of bankruptcy panhandle corporate compensation in court, while suggesting dumpster diving as a means to surviving layoffs/termination to the workers they deem as "gum on their gucci loafers"? NO !!

As for the seniority issue at AA, I'm happy you don't have to experience what other legacy carrier employees are experiencing. However, if you see the Us Airways/ Northwest management "virus" heading your way, I suggest you urge your union to open your contract to address what might happen to you if AA decides to follow the lemming approach to survival.


Also, the union has an obligation to represent it's members
so you as well as other employees are are not terminated at will. If the union is fighting to get your co-workers job re-instated perhaps there is more to situation than meets the eye. The union cannot protect an employee who violates the company's terms for termination. I witnessed employees who were terminated for that reason, and the union could not get their jobs back. However, if one employee is terminated and another is not, for a violation, then its a different matter.

I experienced management who violated federal law, were sued, (settled out of court) and still kept their jobs. To add insult to injury, they continued to portray the same management style.

Should a company under the guise of bankruptcy panhandle corporate compensation in court, while suggesting dumpster diving as a means to surviving layoffs/termination to the workers they deem as "gum on their gucci loafers"? NO !!

As for the seniority issue at AA, I'm happy you don't have to experience what other legacy carrier employees are experiencing. However, if you see the Us Airways/ Northwest management "virus" heading your way, I suggest you urge your union to open your contract to address what might happen to you if AA decides to follow the lemming approach to survival.
Also, the union has an obligation to represent it's members
so you as well as other employees are are not terminated at will. If the union is fighting to get your co-workers job re-instated perhaps there is more to situation than meets the eye. The union cannot protect an employee who violates the company's terms for termination. I witnessed employees who were terminated for that reason, and the union could not get their jobs back. However, if one employee is terminated and another is not, for a violation, then its a different matter.

I experienced management who violated federal law, were sued, (settled out of court) and still kept their jobs. To add insult to injury, they continued to portray the same management style. Management waged a smear campaign against the employees who sued the company.Instead of the majority of my co-workers recognizing the injustice, they bought managements tripe.

Should a company under the guise of bankruptcy panhandle corporate compensation in court, while suggesting dumpster diving as a means to surviving layoffs/termination to the workers they deem as "gum on their gucci loafers"? NO !!

As for the seniority issue at AA, I'm happy you don't have to experience what other legacy carrier employees are experiencing. However, if you see the Us Airways/ Northwest management "virus" heading your way, I suggest you urge your union to open your contract to address what might happen to you if AA decides to follow the lemming approach to survival.
Also, the union has an obligation to represent it's members
so you as well as other employees are are not terminated at will. If the union is fighting to get your co-workers job re-instated perhaps there is more to situation than meets the eye. The union cannot protect an employee who violates the company's terms for termination. I witnessed employees who were terminated for that reason, and the union could not get their jobs back. However, if one employee is terminated and another is not, for a violation, then its a different matter.

I experienced management who violated federal law, were sued, (settled out of court) and still kept their jobs. To add insult to injury, they continued to portray the same management style.

 

[kicked2curb]

There has been no true-er words cited on any post than what you posted...this is intelligence.

Thank you!

Let me be the first to welcome you and your insightfulness to this forum.

Been waiting a long time for someone like you to show up on the scene.

Thank you Pit Bull, I have been lurking for awhile actually. I haven't posted in the past because your posts convey exactly what I have wanted to say.

 

[PITbull]

I can hear your frustration...

However, you convey on here that you are holding you 8th choice, but yet you were hired 6 years ago. What's the complaint with your union if you are holding your choice? How are your interests not being served?

If you feel that your dues are wasted, either gather up the support from folks who share your view point and make change and/or run for office, instead of complaining.

There are many union reps I have worked with that IMO, were a waste of space. So, I decided to gather support and make change happen in my arena.

You don't need a lecture on life, and I surely don't want to come across as giving advice. Venting your disqust with your union's lack of representing your interests, and placing some blame on senior folks who stayed the course because of the years THEY fought to make the job a profession and career is no way to accomplish change in your representation. It will only make enemies and create distance between you and your co-workers. You knowing my background, You'll not get any empathy from me.

Muster the confidence to meet the challenge.