Teamster Representation Questions

[ThirdSeatHero]

You also questioned the merging of the seniority list and got a bogus answer from Third Seat Hero. I say it is bogus and he knows why. As I have explained many times before: the seniority issue at UAL is not an issue for the Teamsters or any union representing mechanics. TSH knows this. It does not matter what the unions say on the subject of mechanic seniority at UAL. UAL was sued in federal court years ago and the result of that suit dictates our seniority, not the union or management. Our list will be merged according to court order. This court order happens to be in line with the philosophies of the IBT which is hire date for lay off and recall, craft date for everything else. For most of us mechanics the two dates are one in the same but for some there is an adjustment.

The Teamsters did not come right out and take a hard line stand on this which upset many of us but I am now gaining a decent understanding of why. Although our seniority is a court order, the contract is clear that negotiations for an amalgamated agreement between two merged carriers can NOT continue until an agreement in seniority is met. The Teamsters were rightly concerned that taking a hard stance would force any mechanic groups in opposition to call for a legal challenge of the law and hold up the process of a new contract for possibly years. Two independent law firms reported that such a challenge would be pointless. A legal firm hired by a group of mechanics who were against hire date in favor of rank ratio also issued the opinion that a civil suit would be a great waste of time and money. Some of us incorrectly believed that the Teamsters were involved in some type of political or organizing stunt in order to hold off any embarrassment, but it is becoming more and more clear that they simply were allowing those who opposed hire date seniority the chance to see for themselves the problems and expense of fighting this lost cause. It is vary apparent to all of us at UA including TSH that date of hire is the most fair basis for merging the seniority list. Some at CO did not see that at first but they are coming to understand that a rank ratio, or crediting years of seniority would not be the right thing to do. The Teamsters allowed the time needed for those groups who opposed it at first to realize the legal walls in place rather than acting like tyrants and telling them what to do. I for one am OK with this now that I know see more of the big picture.

I'm curious just what part of my post on concent decree was bogus?

From my original response...

The last news we received on seniority integration was that due to UALs concent decree language (language put into our CBA by the courts decades ago) that seniority will be ordered by Date of Hire. The problem is, we've heard nothing on the implementation and we've heard alot about legal challenges by CAL AMTs who do not want to be integrated by DOH. Thus we're still waiting on a final determination.

You'll notice the date on my post was back in September of last year and at that time, we still had no word on implementation. You yourself mentioned the legal challenges by the CAL side, so how was my post "bogus"?

 

[swamt]

If there was a card drive at UA, it would surely be on the amfa web site. There is none to be found.

Anomaly; There has been a card drive at UAL enlisted on the AMFA National web site for months now. Let me help you. Goto amfanational.org, click onto "organizing" at left hand column, then just scroll down and you will see the following that I copied and pasted for you:\

There are grassroots organizing campaigns underway at the companies listed below.
AMFA CERTIFIED AIRLINES

• 
  
  Alaska Airlines​
• 
  
  Southwest Airlines​

AMFA ORGANIZING CAMPAIGNS

• United and Continental Airlines
• American Airlines
  

This has been posted for months. It's not as big as the AA drive, yet, but here soon there will be a representational election at AA for AMFA to represent the mechanics. After this election is done at AA with AMFA prevailing, then the card drive will pick up speed over at UAL, then it will flow over into the Delta guys, then JetBlue ect ect...

 

[xUT]

No, xUT, I will post here and respond to questions, but do not wish to be baited in to a #### session with a deaf audience. AMFA in Miami, as well as all of you who have responded to his original question (only one of you a UAL mechanic, by the way) have provided significant history on this site that you are simply against the Teamsters no matter what I or others may answer. You or others will undoubtedly pick apart and try to dismiss as lies anything I say in a poor attempt to spread your anger and distrust.

Lighten up Francis,
I gave no opinion either way as I am not an active employee.
I still don't like the way the IBT lied to get voted in, but that's my opinion (much like yours).
But you already know that.

Take Care,
B) xUT

 

[swamt]

No, xUT, I will post here and respond to questions, but do not wish to be baited in to a #### session with a deaf audience. AMFA in Miami, as well as all of you who have responded to his original question (only one of you a UAL mechanic, by the way) have provided significant history on this site that you are simply against the Teamsters no matter what I or others may answer. You or others will undoubtedly pick apart and try to dismiss as lies anything I say in a poor attempt to spread your anger and distrust.

However, for any of the others who may come across this thread, here you go.

First, the hangar. There are two new hangars planned on the East coast to facilitate both new aircraft purchase orders and work formerly sent to outside contractors. The Teamsters are working to bring back formerly contracted out maintenance such as MOD work on various aircraft models. Work on UA aircraft formerly done by Timco on the East Coast is now being done by CO stations also on the East Coast who are now UA mechanics.

On your lay off question; there are no lay offs under the terms of the agreement in place until we reach a single contract. There is no bumping.

Your scenario for seniority in regards to lay off does not exist because LAX has recalled all of the formerly furloughed mechanics at UAL including those that may have been commuting from ORD. Many stations in fact have exhausted their recall lists. There are still many furloughed mechanics out there and some from closed stations such as Indy but the new contract is designed to recall in order of seniority. If you are the most senior and displaced from your station, you will be recalled before any one junior is allowed to accept any vacancy. In fact, per Article 5, there are NO VACANCIES while an active recall list exists.

You also questioned the merging of the seniority list and got a bogus answer from Third Seat Hero. I say it is bogus and he knows why. As I have explained many times before: the seniority issue at UAL is not an issue for the Teamsters or any union representing mechanics. TSH knows this. It does not matter what the unions say on the subject of mechanic seniority at UAL. UAL was sued in federal court years ago and the result of that suit dictates our seniority, not the union or management. Our list will be merged according to court order. This court order happens to be in line with the philosophies of the IBT which is hire date for lay off and recall, craft date for everything else. For most of us mechanics the two dates are one in the same but for some there is an adjustment.

The Teamsters did not come right out and take a hard line stand on this which upset many of us but I am now gaining a decent understanding of why. Although our seniority is a court order, the contract is clear that negotiations for an amalgamated agreement between two merged carriers can NOT continue until an agreement in seniority is met. The Teamsters were rightly concerned that taking a hard stance would force any mechanic groups in opposition to call for a legal challenge of the law and hold up the process of a new contract for possibly years. Two independent law firms reported that such a challenge would be pointless. A legal firm hired by a group of mechanics who were against hire date in favor of rank ratio also issued the opinion that a civil suit would be a great waste of time and money. Some of us incorrectly believed that the Teamsters were involved in some type of political or organizing stunt in order to hold off any embarrassment, but it is becoming more and more clear that they simply were allowing those who opposed hire date seniority the chance to see for themselves the problems and expense of fighting this lost cause. It is vary apparent to all of us at UA including TSH that date of hire is the most fair basis for merging the seniority list. Some at CO did not see that at first but they are coming to understand that a rank ratio, or crediting years of seniority would not be the right thing to do. The Teamsters allowed the time needed for those groups who opposed it at first to realize the legal walls in place rather than acting like tyrants and telling them what to do. I for one am OK with this now that I know see more of the big picture.

As for the card drive; I have never known a time when amfa has begun a card drive after a contract has been agreed other than a concessionary bankruptcy agreement such as the one we had at UA in the mid 2000's. UA mechanics are earning more money and are better off than we have been in years. There are some issues with payroll and a few management problems, but our new Teamster contract is by far better than anything we have seen from the other two unions which represented us. I expect even more progress from the next agreement which is currently being negotiated. If there was a card drive at UA, it would surely be on the amfa web site. There is none to be found.

We are here to bring to light how much of a liar you are. We pretty much know they all already know, but, as you always keep repeating yourself on other threads with the lies, we will continue to correct you as we go and as we see fit, comprendo?? Now, are you still spilling the untruths about WHO farmed out all the work at UAL? I bet you are Anomaly. Well, as most all these guys at UAL already know it was in fact the IAM prior to AMFA arriving on the property as the representational union. Now, the teamsters are at UAL, well, Ive got some questions for the membership that voted for the teamsters; Did they follow thru with their promice or garrentee to re-open your contract? No. They did not. Did they follow thru with the promice or garrentee to get you guys pensions back?? No. They did not. Did they follow thru with the promice or garrentee to get you guys industry leading wages and bennies??? No. They did not. Well, that's the teamsters for you, promice, promice, promice and never deliver (especially after they won your representational votes). They also promiced you guys to pay more for your monthly dues, guess they followed thru with that one didn't they?? Trust me, it's more than 2.5 X's your base hourly rate. Try 2.5X's all in rate. We told you guys what to exspect when you guys voted them in, and it has happend, hasn't it gentlemen?? I really do hope you all have seen the light now. After AMFA gets voted in at AA, then hopefully you guys will come back to AMFA, then it will be time to get AMFA thru-out the industry, and protect our class and craft with a democratic union, just like all the pilots and F/A's do thru-out the industry. Good luck gentlemen, your going to need it with the teamsters!!

 

[swamt]

Anomaly; There has been a card drive at UAL enlisted on the AMFA National web site for months now. Let me help you. Goto amfanational.org, click onto "organizing" at left hand column, then just scroll down and you will see the following that I copied and pasted for you:\

There are grassroots organizing campaigns underway at the companies listed below.
AMFA CERTIFIED AIRLINES

• 
  
  
  Alaska Airlines​
• 
  
  
  Southwest Airlines​

AMFA ORGANIZING CAMPAIGNS

• United and Continental Airlines
  
• American Airlines

This has been posted for months. It's not as big as the AA drive, yet, but here soon there will be a representational election at AA for AMFA to represent the mechanics. After this election is done at AA with AMFA prevailing, then the card drive will pick up speed over at UAL, then it will flow over into the Delta guys, then JetBlue ect ect...

This deserves another posting, as Anomaly always gets proven wrong. Warning! Do not believe anything this guy says. He's a paid stooge to help the teamsters and/or TWU. He was one of the individuals that was screaming the teamsters garrenteed (and believed them) to re-open the UAL mechs contract. He said, that he believed the teamster attorney, who spoke on video publically about it and was yet again proven wrong. It was proven that the company must "AGREE" to re-open the contract otherwise it will continue as is until amendable date, period...

 

[swamt]

Wow! The crickets cherping is keeping me awake. They always run away when proven wrong. Silence is a virtue...

 

[swamt]

Wow! The crickets cherping is keeping me awake. They always run away when proven wrong. Silence is a virtue...

cherp, cherp, cherp...

 

[chellow]

philosophies of the IBT which is hire date for lay off and recall, craft date for everything else.

Are you trying to tell me if the IBT gets in to AA they will push to integrate our seniority by DOH.

 

[WNMECH]

As for the card drive; I have never known a time when amfa has begun a card drive after a contract has been agreed other than a concessionary bankruptcy agreement such as the one we had at UA in the mid 2000's.

Well allow me to enlighten you.

At SWA we got tired of the IBT BS and waited until we ratified a new contract with raises, and then started a card drive that took 2 weeks to collect enough to file.

It didn't take bankruptcy or concessions for us to know we had had enough of the teamsters.
Just bad representation, raising our dues and being taken for granted.

Good riddance.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Are you trying to tell me if the IBT gets in to AA they will push to integrate our seniority by DOH.

The ONLY Fair way is to intergrate by Classification/Occupational seniority.
Yes some have a DOH because they started on the ramp or where ever. But for recall into your class and craft, layoff, or any other reason the time you have in your class and craft should determine when you get laid off or recalled. This is what we all bid shift and days off by. Company time or DOH is for vacation and company benefits.

If you had previous time in another classification and bumped down, you can get recalled to that goup to maintain you company time. But that should not allow you to get back in as a mechanic if you were working as a gate agent/fleet clerk/baggage handler. Not to gain occ/class seniority.

The DOH with the IBT and the IAM is very similar.

But what ever you call it classification or occupational its the same and only fair way.

How much do we need to keep screwing each other, we have all earned the time we have, T/W off on night shift, gets old.

Having two companies merge should not favor one over the other. All of us have worker at one place or another before our current place of employment.
You gained knowledge each time and bring that to which ever company.

Why do we believe that we should screw the other guy is the right thing to do.
Lets all start to look at it as one giant pool of aircraft mechanics each with different skill sets. But each with time invested, merge by time in our class and craft and let that be the way. FAIR FOR ALL.

 

[Anomaly]

Anomaly; There has been a card drive at UAL enlisted on the AMFA National web site for months now. Let me help you. Goto amfanational.org, click onto "organizing" at left hand column, then just scroll down and you will see the following that I copied and pasted for you:\

There are grassroots organizing campaigns underway at the companies listed below.
AMFA CERTIFIED AIRLINES

• 
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Alaska Airlines​
• 
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Southwest Airlines​

AMFA ORGANIZING CAMPAIGNS

• United and Continental Airlines
  
• American Airlines

This has been posted for months. It's not as big as the AA drive, yet, but here soon there will be a representational election at AA for AMFA to represent the mechanics. After this election is done at AA with AMFA prevailing, then the card drive will pick up speed over at UAL, then it will flow over into the Delta guys, then JetBlue ect ect...

This deserves another posting, as Anomaly always gets proven wrong. Warning! Do not believe anything this guy says. He's a paid stooge to help the teamsters and/or TWU. He was one of the individuals that was screaming the teamsters garrenteed (and believed them) to re-open the UAL mechs contract. He said, that he believed the teamster attorney, who spoke on video publically about it and was yet again proven wrong. It was proven that the company must "AGREE" to re-open the contract otherwise it will continue as is until amendable date, period...

Thanks for providing this link to the "active" amfa campaign at UAL.

Follow the instructions written above to the web site and see for yourselves. Or you can simply click on swamt's UAL link provided to understand who he is.

Do this and you will see how swamt and others like him try to fool you into believing their made up stories.

United and Continental Airlines

There is NO active campaign at UAL. The amfa web site and this link is a testament to that.

 

[swamt]

Thanks for providing this link to the "active" amfa campaign at UAL.

Follow the instructions written above to the web site and see for yourselves. Or you can simply click on swamt's UAL link provided to understand who he is.

Do this and you will see how swamt and others like him try to fool you into believing their made up stories.

United and Continental Airlines

There is NO active campaign at UAL. The amfa web site and this link is a testament to that.

Wow, it took you a week to respond. I see my link did not work, so let the public do their own homework and go to AMFA's National website and read for themselves. Nice try Anomaly, not going to work...

 

[Just Another BK]

Anomaly; There has been a card drive at UAL enlisted on the AMFA National web site for months now. Let me help you. Goto amfanational.org, click onto "organizing" at left hand column, then just scroll down and you will see the following that I copied and pasted for you:\

There are grassroots organizing campaigns underway at the companies listed below.
AMFA CERTIFIED AIRLINES

• 
  
  Alaska Airlines
  
• 
  
  Southwest Airlines

AMFA ORGANIZING CAMPAIGNS

• United and Continental Airlines
  
• American Airlines

This has been posted for months. It's not as big as the AA drive, yet, but here soon there will be a representational election at AA for AMFA to represent the mechanics. After this election is done at AA with AMFA prevailing, then the card drive will pick up speed over at UAL, then it will flow over into the Delta guys, then JetBlue ect ect...

Delta? Jet Blue? Come on man ! Are you getting paid to write this fantasy?

 

[swamt]

Delta? Jet Blue? Come on man ! Are you getting paid to write this fantasy?

I can only hope the Delta and JB mechanics get on board. Your right so far it is only a fantacy. But the AA election will be filled in May, then the AMFA organizers can focus on UAL's card drive.

 

[CactUSmx]

I have friends at US that are on Recall to United. Is it still lifetime recall rights or is it 10 years recall rights?