Swinging into summer

[ClueByFour]

Sky High states: I'm wondering if you even flew in the eighties or nineties, Bob. LOL, ever watch the show---Airline? Passengers are never shy about wanting, demanding compensation for the slightest mishap.
Late flight? I demand an upgrade! Food voucher! Phone voucher! Hotel voucher! During the eighties, I dont think their was a business more generous then the airlines. Stuck in the snow storm?....Ohhh, let US put you up for the night. 2 Hour delay?, Ohhh, let US feed you. Passengers caught wind of this generosity and TOOK ADVANTAGE OF IT. Many people dont view the airlines, as a BUSINESS.

Uhh, in my line of work, when something is not delivered on time, at price, and to specification there are generally financial penalties attached. Why should the airline business be any different?

Yet, when I'm sitting at my Dentist office and he's running behind. I dont think of compensation nor would he give it to me.

Mine does. Get a better dentist. OTOH, my dentist also only schedules as many people as his office and staff can handle at any given time, and has several other dentists available should things get fouled up.

Contrast that with the airlines these days?

I MISS a concert due to illness. I'm screwed on the price of the ticket. It's worthless. NOT your airline ticket though!

As soon as the airlines collectively retreat from the revenue protection BS that does not allow me to sell my ticket to someone else and you might have a point.

I can sell my concert ticket. I can't sell my airline ticket. Apples and oranges.

Weather delay at the baseball game? Why dont THEY feed me?

I can't remember the last time I was fed on a weather delay.

But that also assumes the "weather somewhere else" trick that the airlines are infamous for. "Mr. ClueByFour, your flight from RDU to PHL will be 2 hours late because there was a few drops of rain in FLL 10 hours ago when the equipment originated." Not. My. Problem. Get another aircraft or utilize a schedule/fleet mix that actually accounts for the possibility of weather.

When people comment on the fact that most carriers do NOT serve hot (trays) meals in coach anymore. The general response has been, "Do you want a MEAL or a cheap ticket?"

Thankfully (for your position), airlines like LCC are now offering neither.

 

[deltawatch]

Things are getting better, capacity is going DOWN, fares are going UP!, soon the airlines will have extra cash for better service, our cash. Employees paycheck and consumers wallet ..... lol lol!!

 

[jerseyfinn]

. . . This should be ... INTERNAL AFFAIRS ONLY. . .

I think that was the title of a porno flick. :huh:

Seriously though, while the obvious purpose of this board is for employees, as a pax, I can't emphasize the education and insight I've gained into US, it's employees, and aviation in general. Listening to the passions, jokes, and squabbles here gives one a real sense for the airline.

Piney, I must admit that your response to hp_fa is a bit over the top as they simply provide an explanation about how mandate issues also factor into the aviation picture behind the scenes. It doesn't change the situation that we might encounter as pax, but it does add perspective. You don't shoot the messenger.

Barry

 

[wench]

Sky High!

Well said indeed!

They tHINK AND DEMAND THEY CAN suck every last blood out of the airline.

1) No Not afraid of anything..in response of the posted ?.

2) Personal 'airline' business is NONE OF THE PUBLIC'S BUSINESS..
3) Ex: First ups-NO ONES BUSINESS IF THE AGTS RECEIVE EXTRA, WE'VE LOST AND LOST-SO DONT GIVE ME THIS HOLIER THEN THOU CRAP..
this has been my profession for the last 23 yrs. I earn EVerythinG I make.

I treat each one with dignity and RESPECT.
4) the occassional amateur traveler who hasent a clue.

5) I go out of my way to assist them.

6) If you're looking to scam the airline, I pick up on it- I had a scammer yrs ago, he GOT AWAY WIth nothing.
7) Consumer Affairs get's my copy tipped to them long before your letter of complaint does.
8) So if you think you're getting me over a barrel, think again!

9) have a wonderful summer flying on the cramped RJ's!

10) Good day!

 

[USCREW]

. . . This should be ... INTERNAL AFFAIRS ONLY. . .

I think that was the title of a porno flick. :huh:

Seriously though, while the obvious purpose of this board is for employees, as a pax, I can't emphasize the education and insight I've gained into US, it's employees, and aviation in general. Listening to the passions, jokes, and squabbles here gives one a real sense for the airline.

Piney, I must admit that your response to hp_fa is a bit over the top as they simply provide an explanation about how mandate issues also factor into the aviation picture behind the scenes. It doesn't change the situation that we might encounter as pax, but it does add perspective. You don't shoot the messenger.

Barry

Mr. Barry,
I watch a great deal of medical shows. Everything from The Discovery Health Channel to Grey's Anatomy. And I DO mean I REALLY WATCH A LOT! How much medical education and insight do you think I have gained? I would imagine that I have only scratched the surface and am in no position to make technical comments. Even those of us who work for the same company are not completely informed of the workings of other departments. I think that it is great to have many perspectives on this board, but some take it a little too far by trying to be an authority on all things, and it is irritating to those who know better. B)

 

[Travels2mch]

Uhh, in my line of work, when something is not delivered on time, at price, and to specification there are generally financial penalties attached. Why should the airline business be any different?

Mine does. Get a better dentist. OTOH, my dentist also only schedules as many people as his office and staff can handle at any given time, and has several other dentists available should things get fouled up.

Contrast that with the airlines these days?
As soon as the airlines collectively retreat from the revenue protection BS that does not allow me to sell my ticket to someone else and you might have a point.

I can sell my concert ticket. I can't sell my airline ticket. Apples and oranges.
I can't remember the last time I was fed on a weather delay.

But that also assumes the "weather somewhere else" trick that the airlines are infamous for. "Mr. ClueByFour, your flight from RDU to PHL will be 2 hours late because there was a few drops of rain in FLL 10 hours ago when the equipment originated." Not. My. Problem. Get another aircraft or utilize a schedule/fleet mix that actually accounts for the possibility of weather.
Thankfully (for your position), airlines like LCC are now offering neither.

Excellent responses.....you took the words right out of my er um fingertips..........

 

[hp_fa]

Clue said:

Uhh, in my line of work, when something is not delivered on time, at price, and to specification there are generally financial penalties attached. Why should the airline business be any different?

--------------------------------------------------------
I say:

Many times, the reasons you cannot arrive at your destination on time are out of the control of the airline. Weather, en route flying restrictions and unexpected maintenance come to mind. Are you actually inferring that safety be damned in favor of a safe ride?

---------------------------------------------------------
Clue said:

Mine does. Get a better dentist. OTOH, my dentist also only schedules as many people as his office and staff can handle at any given time, and has several other dentists available should things get fouled up.

----------------------------------------------------------
I say:

Airplanes are too expensive to sit around these days for there to be too many spares. Since there is little or no profit currently in flying full planes, what do you think would happen if fares reflected the cost of having planes sit around as spares?

----------------------------------------------------------
Clue said:

Contrast that with the airlines these days?
As soon as the airlines collectively retreat from the revenue protection BS that does not allow me to sell my ticket to someone else and you might have a point.

----------------------------------------------------------

I say:

When the transferability of ticket issues arose in the past it was the airlines trying to keep business people from using supersaver fares for business travel. The old Saturday night stay requirement was plainly placed there to discourage business folks from travelling on rates designed for leisure travellers. HOWEVER, with the new post-9/11 security issues, part of the transferability of tickets is security driven.

----------------------------------------------------------
Clue said:

I can sell my concert ticket. I can't sell my airline ticket. Apples and oranges.
I can't remember the last time I was fed on a weather delay.

----------------------------------------------------------
I say:

The government now absolutely needs to know who is travelling on what flights and not have any surprises. So no, you can't sell your airline ticket.

----------------------------------------------------------
Clue said:

But that also assumes the "weather somewhere else" trick that the airlines are infamous for. "Mr. ClueByFour, your flight from RDU to PHL will be 2 hours late because there was a few drops of rain in FLL 10 hours ago when the equipment originated." Not. My. Problem. Get another aircraft or utilize a schedule/fleet mix that actually accounts for the possibility of weather.

----------------------------------------------------------

I say:

Read the preceeding responses for why it isn't the airline's problem either. Unplanned stuff happens all the time. If you don't want to have unplanned delays ever you need to rethink your position and/or charter aircraft. The airlines do not have any reasonable way to forecast weather problems months in advance when the schedules are written. They do know that historically problems will occur, but all they can realistically do is pad a little margain of time onto flights to cover what is likely to occur 75-90% of the time. However, they cannot cover all contingincies all the time. Remember, your cotract with the airline does not promise arrival at a certain time. It is a contract for carriage. The fact that you can routinely arrive at a scheduled arrival time 80% of the time is wonderful, considering all the things that come into play in order to get you hundreds or thousands of miles in a safe and cost-efficient manner in a mass transportation industry.

 

[ClueByFour]

Many times, the reasons you cannot arrive at your destination on time are out of the control of the airline. Weather, en route flying restrictions and unexpected maintenance come to mind. Are you actually inferring that safety be damned in favor of a safe ride?

No, I'm inferring that the airlines intentionally schedule more than the airfield/airspace can handle. Throw in weather, and things are simply not sustainable.

Look at places like LGA and PHL--there are hours when US itself has more arrivals/hour than the airfield can take (according to the FAA) when weather is good.

Airplanes are too expensive to sit around these days for there to be too many spares. Since there is little or no profit currently in flying full planes, what do you think would happen if fares reflected the cost of having planes sit around as spares?

That's a business problem.

As I said, the business of "well, we might deliver the product on time and as promised" is unique to the airline industry. If that's not functional, change the model (and if that includes airlines going under and fares going up, I'm okay with it).

The government now absolutely needs to know who is travelling on what flights and not have any surprises. So no, you can't sell your airline ticket.

That's completely nonsensical. I can walk up to a kiosk and buy a ticket up until what, an hour until departure. Since the airline is checking IDs anyway, this is still about revenue protection. Trying to clad it in the "security" argument does not hold water.

Read the preceeding responses for why it isn't the airline's problem either.

Read my preceeding response for why it's a broken business model and absolutely the airline's problem.

Unplanned stuff happens all the time. If you don't want to have unplanned delays ever you need to rethink your position and/or charter aircraft.

It's not always unplanned--more often than not (particularly in the summer and winter months when weather it at it's worst) it's a function of overscheduling one's fleet.

Remember, your cotract with the airline does not promise arrival at a certain time. It is a contract for carriage. The fact that you can routinely arrive at a scheduled arrival time 80% of the time is wonderful, considering all the things that come into play in order to get you hundreds or thousands of miles in a safe and cost-efficient manner in a mass transportation industry.

Then why do the airlines collectively charge more for certain flights? I mean, RDU-PHL is RDU-PHL, right? Why does that Monday morning or Friday afternoon flight routinely cost 2x other flights during the week? It's just transit, with no guarantee of performance, right?

Ahh--but the airline industry wants to have it both ways--no responsibility for actually showing up on time, but charge more for desirable flight times. Nice gig--but an attidue and arrogance which is unique to the airline industry.

As for chartering aircraft, when I need to be somewhere, particularly with/at a large customer and/or to perform vital functions to keep my own firm's business running, I absolutely utilize our corporate fleet.

 

[ItsNotThatSerious]

No, I'm inferring that the airlines intentionally schedule more than the airfield/airspace can handle. Throw in weather, and things are simply not sustainable.

Look at places like LGA and PHL--there are hours when US itself has more arrivals/hour than the airfield can take (according to the FAA) when weather is good.
That's a business problem.

As I said, the business of "well, we might deliver the product on time and as promised" is unique to the airline industry. If that's not functional, change the model (and if that includes airlines going under and fares going up, I'm okay with it).
That's completely nonsensical. I can walk up to a kiosk and buy a ticket up until what, an hour until departure. Since the airline is checking IDs anyway, this is still about revenue protection. Trying to clad it in the "security" argument does not hold water.
Read my preceeding response for why it's a broken business model and absolutely the airline's problem.
It's not always unplanned--more often than not (particularly in the summer and winter months when weather it at it's worst) it's a function of overscheduling one's fleet.
Then why do the airlines collectively charge more for certain flights? I mean, RDU-PHL is RDU-PHL, right? Why does that Monday morning or Friday afternoon flight routinely cost 2x other flights during the week? It's just transit, with no guarantee of performance, right?

Ahh--but the airline industry wants to have it both ways--no responsibility for actually showing up on time, but charge more for desirable flight times. Nice gig--but an attidue and arrogance which is unique to the airline industry.

As for chartering aircraft, when I need to be somewhere, particularly with/at a large customer and/or to perform vital functions to keep my own firm's business running, I absolutely utilize our corporate fleet.

Perhaps you should utilize it all the time!!! The corporate fleet that is. You must work for a huge corporation...if they have a fleet! By the way, as a customer, you can pick and choose who you patronize. If another airline is doing it better, that's where you should go!

 

[USCREW]

Must be a humongous corporation. A fleet of aircraft...

 

[SKY HIGH]

Uhh, in my line of work, when something is not delivered on time, at price, and to specification there are generally financial penalties attached. Why should the airline business be any different?

Mine does. Get a better dentist. OTOH, my dentist also only schedules as many people as his office and staff can handle at any given time, and has several other dentists available should things get fouled up.

Contrast that with the airlines these days?
As soon as the airlines collectively retreat from the revenue protection BS that does not allow me to sell my ticket to someone else and you might have a point.

I can sell my concert ticket. I can't sell my airline ticket. Apples and oranges.
I can't remember the last time I was fed on a weather delay.

Sky high states: Compensation from a dentist? Sureeee.
My brother had a doctor's appt last week. Guess who didnt show up? the doctor. I dont think my brother is expecting FREE ANYTHING from her office. I've personally waited over TWO hours for my SCHEDULED appointment with a surgeon. I got nothing, not even a sorry.

sell your ticket?.........I CANT HELP THAT YOU BUY A TICKET THAT IS NOT REFUNDABLE. THAT'S YOUR OPTION!!!!
BUY A REFUNDABLE TICKET.

This is a company, that has 50 MILLION passengers per year.
It doesnt have an ENDLESS source of compensation.
AND, IN MY LINE OF WORK, next time there's a hurricane in Florida, and your flight is cancelled. It's a huge financial penalty to the AIRLINE TOO. Last time I checked SAFETY REGULATIONS govern that decision.

No, I'm inferring that the airlines intentionally schedule more than the airfield/airspace can handle. Throw in weather, and things are simply not sustainable.

sky high states: Its a competitive issue. So, you're saying.......an airline should step forward to GIVE UP ITS SLOTS so everyone else should be on time?

Then why do the airlines collectively charge more for certain flights? I mean, RDU-PHL is RDU-PHL, right? Why does that Monday morning or Friday afternoon flight routinely cost 2x other flights during the week? It's just transit, with no guarantee of performance, right?

Ahh--but the airline industry wants to have it both ways--no responsibility for actually showing up on time, but charge more for desirable flight times. Nice gig--but an attidue and arrogance which is unique to the airline industry.

sky high states: It's AMERICA. FREE MARKET. Remember?

 

[ClueByFour]

Perhaps you should utilize it all the time!!! The corporate fleet that is. You must work for a huge corporation...if they have a fleet! By the way, as a customer, you can pick and choose who you patronize. If another airline is doing it better, that's where you should go!

Most of the Fortune 250 either own and operate or lease fractionals. We do both.

That said, I've moved around $50k/year of revenue away from US in the past 3 years, so in a sense, I do vote with my feet and dollar.

To a very real extent, most (if not all) of the legacies and many of the LCCs are guilty of these types of infractions.

sell your ticket?.........I CANT HELP THAT YOU BUY A TICKET THAT IS NOT REFUNDABLE. THAT'S YOUR OPTION!!!!
BUY A REFUNDABLE TICKET.

You are changing course in mid-stream.

A ticket (refundable or otherwise) represents a perishable thing. The airline industry as a whole is the largest (and relatively only) one who gets away selling a perishable commodity that cannot be resold.

I can resell a concert ticket. A bus ticket. A train ticket.

But not an airline ticket. It's about revenue protection. The real push for e-ticketing (originally) had very little to do with cost or time saving, and everything to do with revenue protection.

This is a company, that has 50 MILLION passengers per year.
It doesnt have an ENDLESS source of compensation.
AND, IN MY LINE OF WORK, next time there's a hurricane in Florida, and your flight is cancelled. It's a huge financial penalty to the AIRLINE TOO. Last time I checked SAFETY REGULATIONS govern that decision.

Hurricanes and massive disasters are about the only time when most airlines actually operate like a normal business--in that a failure to perform results in a refund.

sky high states: Its a competitive issue. So, you're saying.......an airline should step forward to GIVE UP ITS SLOTS so everyone else should be on time?

PHL is not slot constrained. LGA is only slot constrained because the airlines flooded it with so many flights that the Port had no choice.

sky high states: It's AMERICA. FREE MARKET. Remember?

Sure. The same free market that brought chapter 11 and the ATSB to keep airlines in business? That's not a free market--in a free market, US is dead and buried four years ago. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[USFlyer]

This should be..

INTERNAL
AFFAIRS
ONLY.

THEN
DON'T
POST
ON
THE
INTERNET.

Seriously, anytime something is written, no matter where it is written, it will get in the public domain. Never write anything, especially electronically, you would be uncomfortable seeing on the front page of the New York Times. If you don't want your internal affairs discussed, don't post on the Internet or Intranet.

 

[SKY HIGH]

A ticket (refundable or otherwise) represents a perishable thing. The airline industry as a whole is the largest (and relatively only) one who gets away selling a perishable commodity that cannot be resold.
I can resell a concert ticket. A bus ticket. A train ticket.
But not an airline ticket. Be careful what you wish for.

sky high states: OK, lets change the way you buy and SELL airline tickets. YOU dont show up for your flight, YOU'RE TICKET IS NO GOOD, just like a concert ticket, a bus ticket and a train ticket. HAPPY NOW?

 

[ClueByFour]

sky high states: OK, lets change the way you buy and SELL airline tickets. YOU dont show up for your flight, YOU'RE TICKET IS NO GOOD, just like a concert ticket, a bus ticket and a train ticket. HAPPY NOW?

I'd be thrilled, because the market would finally rule airline pricing. I buy one (ticket) off a guy who can't make the next flight.