SuperBowl on LiveTV!

[Speedbird]

Busboy,

You're good for one thing and that's cheap entertainment on these boards.

But you need to push yourself away from the computer (600+ posts....sheeesh)and go get a life outside of this message board.

You're suffering from cyber fatique and it has obviously affected your mental well-being.

Go get help dude!

 

[Speedbird]

Wow! only a three second differential Positive Rate. Impressive!

 

[Jeff G]

I don't have a lot of time for this right now, so I'll be (mercifully) brief.


[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/30/2003 4:31:40 PM Busdrvr wrote:

Back in 1985, that was the rationale a few folks used at UAL. they got $75k first year pay, but you're ALPA, you know the rest of the story. It does not matter how long you've been there, you should make a certain amount to pilot an A320, PERIOD, otherwise, you are providing downward pressure on industry wages. If 2 years ago, AMR, DAL, and UAL paid it's capt $110 an hour, what do you think your messiah would be paying you?[/blockquote]

Ah, yes, standard tactic. If you can't answer a direct question or offer your own solution, compare them to scabs. Nice. Furthermore, you as much as anyone should know by know that this industry is cyclical. Three years ago you were king of the world. Now you're lucky to have a job. Again, what do YOU think JetBlue and its pilots should have done? Leading pay among national carriers isn't bad.

[blockquote]Somebody has to be the highest paid. do you think it will ever be you? If everybody else undercut you, what do you think will happen at Jet Blue? what do you think AMR and NWA are telling it's pilots as we speak? I'll give you a hint. "We must match the wages at UAL to survive, and to thrive we must match JBlues wages" Is that what you want? Jet Blue wages for the rest of the industry? What happens to growth at jetblu then? Two year Capts? 10 year capts? You've been around long enough to know your big smile isn't what brings in the pax, it's the PRICE and the TV's.[/blockquote]

I don't care if I'm ever the highest paid. There's the concept of "enough" that you seem to be lacking. I am paid "enough". "Enough" changes over time, but for now "enough" is enough. Clear enough? 🙂

Standard tactic #2: If you can't answer with a clear argument, throw out the worst case and hope it sticks. Corollary: Throw in some bad economics.

I know darn well that price is the biggest draw, but you see, JetBlue isn't trying more of your "mine is bigger than yours" games against other airlines. JetBlue makes "enough" money. Even if everyone else in the industry paid JetBlue wages, JetBlue would make money, and it is "enough". It doesn't have to make more than everyone else to be happy. The fact is that the product is better than at most other airlines, so competition on price would not be fatal to the airline. That's why simply matching prices, which has already been tried, isn't working.

So yeah, it's not my smiling face that gets them in the door, but it might bring someone back next time. Actually, I probably scare them off, but you get the idea. Repeat business depends on quality of service, not price alone.

[blockquote]Even after distressed termination of the pension at U, they will STILL have a biger defined benefit pension plan. Are you really that proud that your three year old company has NO plan to offer you a defined benefit plan of ANY type?[/blockquote]

Again, I don't care, I have enough. Besides, I would look at a pension the same way I look at Social Security: it would be nice to have but I can't count on it being there when I retire. I have every intention of retiring VERY comfortably, and all that money will be in my own name. Haven't multiple big airline bankruptcies been enough to drive that point home? Don't be another victim.

[blockquote]What else do they do? enlighten me please? Does Mr ADD give you backrubs at work? Under severe wage pressure from the bottom feeders, we are negotiatin new rates and benefits, please, so that we may negotiate all those wonderful perks you guys have trouble quantifying, please tell me what they are so that we may get them in exchange for 100K in W-2 pay. Is jetblue a better deal than an RJ outfit? absolutely, but I don't think you've ever experienced the way it is at DAL, AMR and yes even UAL.[/blockquote]

I'm kind of out of time here, but let's just say that truly enjoying your work, your work environment, your coworkers, and a trustworthy management has value. BTW, I don't particularly care what I'm missing at DAL, AMR and yes even UAL, because there was little besides the paycheck that ever impressed me about those companies. I was truly torn before I came here as to where I wanted to be. I applied to everyone of course, because you always cover your bases, but nothing stood out for me as THE place I wanted to go (LUV was very close to the ideal, though). Then I came here, and it was an answered prayer, if you like. This whole message is probably completely foreign to you, but I'm very happy to be where I am and no matter what was offered at DAL, AMR and yes even UAL, I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[G4G5]

Don't let anyone ever tell you that this is a service business. It was 30-40 years ago but not anymore.

If you think I am full of it just ask the customers, anyone of them can tell you exactly what the other airlines wanted for their voyage. Down to the cent. Then ask them to name the airlines they use to travel FL on. The conversation begins to drift and you rarely hear the same airline twice.

Or ask them how much they could have got the ticket for if they traveled on a different day? They will give the exact dollar figure. Then ask them who has the best on time stats or who has the best baggage numbers or who has the oldest fleet. They don't have a clue. The only figure they care about starts with $

Don't get me wrong good service is important. Service makes them spread the word, it's free advertisement(see Dave's statement in the quaterly report about lower marketing costs) but it doesn't make them come back. Service is the only thing that can't be coppied. If People want TV, within the next 5 years every domestic airline will have TV. If it makes money and they can copy it, they will, but you can't force a smile onto a persons face.

Never forget, only the all mighty dollar makes them come back. It's a sad thing to say but unfortunatly it's true.

 

[audio-nut]

The was one mess of a thread to read. Wow. Hey busdriver, why don't you go read your own board...it seems some important things sre going on over there. here is a taste of the subjects of the 20 or so most recent threads.....


Where did the ESOP shares go?
HOw do you lose 3.2b
UAL board balks at reorganization plan offered by Tilton
UAL Fragmentation?
UAL Corporation Reports Fourth-Quarter and Full-Year Financial Results
US AIR pilots brace for wipeout
2000 UA Pilots GONE!
UAL ramping up DOD charters to Kuwait City
IAM Paycuts [1] [2] [3] [4]
License Holders Beware
UAL BK costs 2.4 million and counting
United Pilots Irked at Airline's Plan
UAL seeks to reject 6 boeing leases
United morgages LHR slots
Ten West Hotel closes
UAL and South America
It's now time to scrutinize AA [1] [2]
United Lays Off 704 Flight Attendants..
Its all our fault
United's Checks are Bouncing
One way or anothrr
Management Layoffs



Seems like a bunch of layoffs, mortaging, and loses. Tell me again why any B6 employee would be jelious of you and your company?

 

[Jeff G]

G4G5,

Logging on for a short time again, so more brief words.

You're right to a point but it doesn't fully explain what's been happening with JetBlue. We often don't have the lowest fare on our routes, and indeed often enjoy a fare premium. This with the highest loads in the business. It's not price alone, or theoretically there'd be a perfect, homogenous economic market, where every carrier has the same price and the same loads for the same market. That perfect market doesn't exist even on "leisure" routes. In the aggregate, JetBlue's customers pay a bit more than average on many routes. That's hard to explain if price was all they cared about.

Service does have some value. You've mentioned word-of-mouth, and that's an important factor, and hard to quantify except in noting advertising expenses. Besides that, though, service does affect repeat business. Anecdotally, it's a rare flight that someone on board doesn't mention that JetBlue is the best airline flying and even that it was the best flight ever. That kind of reaction still amazes me, but as I said, it's very common. Do you think that kind of "experience" for the customer might translate into preferred carrier status as opposed to blind commodity buying? I do, and it's reflected in the average fares.

If you have an alternate interpretation, though, I'd like to hear it.

 

[G4G5]

Jeff,

Let me ask you this, why did people first try Jet Blue?
Price? How has the price differed since JB's inception? It hasn't. So, your service agrument doesn't really stand up, it spreads the word but it doesn't make them come back. Only price does that.

Granted more people are trying JB because of the service but don't think for a second that the $$$ was not involved. I take full planes to PBI,FLL,MCO,RSW,TPA,MIA,Yada Yada every week and I get the same, "I only fly AA" or "you guys are the best" week after week and I thank each one personally with a smile on my face.

But not for a minute do I think that these folks would/will be back, unless the price was right.

It sad but true, in todays society air travel is something that is taken for granted. The days of dressing up and going to the airport for an airplane ride are long gone.

If you doubt it, just stop and listen to the converstions. They all start with, "how much did you pay" THEN they ask, "which airline did you fly down on"

It's never the other way around.

 

[Speedbird]

Sorry to butt in on your cyber discussion, but I believe people buy tickets not just for the lowest price, but for the best value also.

For example, in Florida Delta Express was the lowest cost provider in many of the markets that jetBlue competed in. Yet B6 had average load factors much higher than DLX.

Another example was in the JFK-OAK market that AA is now leaving. On this route, AA had the lowest average fares, compared with jetBlue. But jetBlue was able to consistently achieve much higher load factors than AA (85% vs. 68%).

Now in both cases DAL and AAL provided good service and lower fares, but jetBlue was able to capture more passengers with a yield premium (and lower costs). Why?

I believe that passengers felt that they were getting more for their money than what was being provided by either DAL or AAL. Price is not the only discriminator when passengers choose who they'll fly with. Value for their dollar appears to have a powerful efect as well. JMO.

 

[KCFlyer]

Service today means that the airline seems to appreciate your spending money with them. A decent fare, a friendly smile,a coke or two during the flight, and a thank you at the end. None of those really increase costs too very much.

Service in the past seems to revolve around a fare that is 5 times what the low fare carriers provided, with a frozen Swanson dinner thrown in. You can smile all day long, but a Hungry Man dinner is not worth $1,000. So there is very little "value" in that service.

So today, Service=value. Given that, you'd think airlines would adopt a more "consumer friendly" fare structure, since they've gotten rid of their "service" component (no meals on flights under 4 hours). But they still seem to think that flexibility only comes with a full fare, $1,000 ticket. Keep the meal, I'll go where the "service" I get is geared more toward an airline accomodating me versus feeding me.

 

[Tango-Bravo]

From the news this past week, it looks like the competence level of Busdrvr and his UA pilot colleagues may be in for a sharp decline.

Since flying for a LCC equals substandard pilot qualifications (in the gospel according to Busdrvr) and UA has announced its plan to become a defacto LCC by virtue of spinning off much, if not most, of its domestic operations to an affiliate operation that can fly at CASM competitive with the likes of WN, FL, TZ and B6...I'll leave it to the reader to make the connection (if the the gospel according to Busdrvr were actually credible.)

 

[Farley]

I have no doubt as to the veracity of everything that Bus says. As a result I have thrown out all of my Chris Farley movies. As soon as Bus provides us all guidance on how to get where he is, we can all begin the journey to the top!






























.

 

[LoneStarMike]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/29/2003 10:55:54 PM Speedbird wrote:

With Delta adding only one airplane a month, it will take a while for them to have any sigificant impact against jetBlue.
[/blockquote]

You might want to go back and read DAL's press release on Song again. It states:

"Song will use Boeing 757s with 199 coach seats, starting with one airplane on April 15 and adding a plane each week over 36 weeks."

LoneStarMike

 

[AKAAB]

From day one we have been reminded by David and Dave that people will try a new airline the first time for a low price, but they come back for the service.

We believe it and prove it everyday!

AKAAB

 

[Speedbird]

G4G5,

Where do you get your definition of a LCC?

Just because an airline defines itself as a LCC doesn't always mean that it's prices are rock bottom. Albeit, low costs help an airline that offers low pricing to attract customers and sustain their operations, but the two are not joined at the hip, so to speak.

For example, jetBlue maintains a yield premium in many of its markets even though its a LCC. You can't ignore the value aspect that I mentioned in my previous post.

Also, the passenger marketplace is too complex to lump all passengers into one category. Sure there are many passengers who buy their tickets in the manner you describe, but there are also a larger percentage of passengers who don't.

Your analogy of buying gas is a poor one. I'll bet that if had to spend four or five hours at a gas station every time you had to put gas in your tank, then somebody would come up with some nifty service features to attract you to their pumps. Since that isn't the case your example doesn't work.

PS
LoneStarMike,

You're right about the 36 airplane per week vs month discrepancy. I stand corrected, thanks.

 

[G4G5]

People will try an airline for price and they will come back again for price.

Nobody buys gas based on service. Nobody walks into a car dealer saying, "sure I'll pay more for your service".

Good service helps spread the word but price makes them come back.

Jet Blue is an LCC, by it's very defination. Notice the word service is left out of the LCC defination.