Storm worsens plight of US Airways - Crowd of pilots expected at Virginia courthouse
Slam&Click
Member
- Aug 24, 2002
- 90
- 0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/21/2003 11:13:33 PM PineyBob wrote:
PS: Does Home Depot have a defined benefit pension for ex-pilots?
----------------
[/blockquote]
Piney, I don't know what Home Depot offers in the way of a retirement plan for their bevy of multi-talented and varied background employees.
I can speak, albeit loosely, about one retired pilot and his loving wife, both of whom I happen to be incredibly devoted to and love very much. My father had a marvelous and fulfilling career with US and is deeply concerned about the future for he and my mom. I can assure you that I and my siblings will do our best to do what we must to guarantee that neither of them will ever have to sleep in a box or eat dog food to survive. They won't have to be a greeter at Walmart, either. (Although, that's an admirable position!) The rub is that he worked hard all his life, raised us the best way that he knew how (and not an opulent lifestyle, but certainly more than adequate). He loved his job and the people with whom he'd worked. He never differentiated between unions, we had mechanics, gate agents, flight attendants, and crew schedulers (oh and pilots, too) in our home. He absolutely had fun going to work, but that is not the way things are now in the pilot profession. Now he has to worry about the financial rug being pulled from beneath him, and that is not why anyone works and looks forward to retirement. -- not he, nor any other retired personnel from US should have this type of worry. That, in a nutshell, chomps.
He is a wise man, and offered this valuable piece of advice: Love what you get up to do everyday and you will never work a day in your life. I have tried to live by and honor that sage advice, although corporate life is not necessarily what it once was!
Stay well!
----------------
On 2/21/2003 11:13:33 PM PineyBob wrote:
PS: Does Home Depot have a defined benefit pension for ex-pilots?
----------------
[/blockquote]
Piney, I don't know what Home Depot offers in the way of a retirement plan for their bevy of multi-talented and varied background employees.
I can speak, albeit loosely, about one retired pilot and his loving wife, both of whom I happen to be incredibly devoted to and love very much. My father had a marvelous and fulfilling career with US and is deeply concerned about the future for he and my mom. I can assure you that I and my siblings will do our best to do what we must to guarantee that neither of them will ever have to sleep in a box or eat dog food to survive. They won't have to be a greeter at Walmart, either. (Although, that's an admirable position!) The rub is that he worked hard all his life, raised us the best way that he knew how (and not an opulent lifestyle, but certainly more than adequate). He loved his job and the people with whom he'd worked. He never differentiated between unions, we had mechanics, gate agents, flight attendants, and crew schedulers (oh and pilots, too) in our home. He absolutely had fun going to work, but that is not the way things are now in the pilot profession. Now he has to worry about the financial rug being pulled from beneath him, and that is not why anyone works and looks forward to retirement. -- not he, nor any other retired personnel from US should have this type of worry. That, in a nutshell, chomps.
He is a wise man, and offered this valuable piece of advice: Love what you get up to do everyday and you will never work a day in your life. I have tried to live by and honor that sage advice, although corporate life is not necessarily what it once was!
Stay well!
savyinvestor
Senior
- Jan 15, 2003
- 494
- 0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/21/2003 10:27:02 PM PineyBob wrote:
I'll be your dog Savy! Ruff Ruff LOL.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Piney, I've followed your posts for quite some time. You've always tried to be positive and objective IMHO. I've also read most of Munn's posts and if I'm wrong I'll apologize on this board to him, but anyone who has followed his posts knows I'm right. I think you just called a spade a spade and some folks just don't want to hear it. Kinda like France and Germany! Keep calling them like you see em! Savy
----------------
On 2/21/2003 10:27:02 PM PineyBob wrote:
I'll be your dog Savy! Ruff Ruff LOL.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Piney, I've followed your posts for quite some time. You've always tried to be positive and objective IMHO. I've also read most of Munn's posts and if I'm wrong I'll apologize on this board to him, but anyone who has followed his posts knows I'm right. I think you just called a spade a spade and some folks just don't want to hear it. Kinda like France and Germany! Keep calling them like you see em! Savy
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
Moderator Todd,
The reason I posted that thread on a new post is because there are 50 replies on this.
Sometimes, when you try to make a point on these posts, it gets lost because the threads get too numberous.
Could you unlock that please, and lets see where it goes?
The reason I posted that thread on a new post is because there are 50 replies on this.
Sometimes, when you try to make a point on these posts, it gets lost because the threads get too numberous.
Could you unlock that please, and lets see where it goes?
OP
chipmunn
Guest
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #52
LavMan:
O.k., I understand your thought on a second cut.
We have all had our share of cuts, but ALPA can make the claim then that many of our pilots have sustained even further cuts than announced by the company.
For example, Captains displaced to First Officer received a 33 percent cut, plus the 26 to 33 percent July 2002 W-2 cut, plus the 8 percent January 1 W-2 cut, and the retirement givebacks.
Blockholders who went to reserve saw their pay hours reduced from 85 to 76 or 72 hours per month, which represents another 10 to 15 percent cut, on top of the cuts listed above.
Another cut was obtained with the Airbus overrides lost and pilots being downgraded to lower paying pieces of equipment.
One challenge for MSP employees and ALPA is that we cannot work overtime for extra hours/pay, whereas every other employee can obtain additional gross pay, if desired.
But, you're right with your two cuts; however, for ALPA it can be argued the majority of the pilots took five or even six W-2 cuts that all reduced the company's pension obligation.
I supported each of htese cuts as well as the pilots taking a higher percentage of cuts to help the airline survive, but I believe it is unfair to single out the pilots to be the only employees, including FSA and CSA, to have their pension terminated.
Reuters said today "US Airways pilots have already agreed to annual pay work rule and retirement concessions totaling $646 million," said Capt. Bill Pollock, a senior union official. By asking the court to approve termination of the plan, Pollock said, "U.S. Airways is attempting to force pilots to bear an unacceptable and unjust burden."
Some pilots would suffer a reduction in their retirement income of as much as 75 percent, the union says.
What's even more irritating is that federal law requires that airline pilots retire from flying at 60, which prevents a pilot from obtaining the PBGC age 65 maximum of $44,000 per year.
However, an age 65 PBGC award would be available for every other US Airways employee, but not the pilots.
Chip
O.k., I understand your thought on a second cut.
We have all had our share of cuts, but ALPA can make the claim then that many of our pilots have sustained even further cuts than announced by the company.
For example, Captains displaced to First Officer received a 33 percent cut, plus the 26 to 33 percent July 2002 W-2 cut, plus the 8 percent January 1 W-2 cut, and the retirement givebacks.
Blockholders who went to reserve saw their pay hours reduced from 85 to 76 or 72 hours per month, which represents another 10 to 15 percent cut, on top of the cuts listed above.
Another cut was obtained with the Airbus overrides lost and pilots being downgraded to lower paying pieces of equipment.
One challenge for MSP employees and ALPA is that we cannot work overtime for extra hours/pay, whereas every other employee can obtain additional gross pay, if desired.
But, you're right with your two cuts; however, for ALPA it can be argued the majority of the pilots took five or even six W-2 cuts that all reduced the company's pension obligation.
I supported each of htese cuts as well as the pilots taking a higher percentage of cuts to help the airline survive, but I believe it is unfair to single out the pilots to be the only employees, including FSA and CSA, to have their pension terminated.
Reuters said today "US Airways pilots have already agreed to annual pay work rule and retirement concessions totaling $646 million," said Capt. Bill Pollock, a senior union official. By asking the court to approve termination of the plan, Pollock said, "U.S. Airways is attempting to force pilots to bear an unacceptable and unjust burden."
Some pilots would suffer a reduction in their retirement income of as much as 75 percent, the union says.
What's even more irritating is that federal law requires that airline pilots retire from flying at 60, which prevents a pilot from obtaining the PBGC age 65 maximum of $44,000 per year.
However, an age 65 PBGC award would be available for every other US Airways employee, but not the pilots.
Chip
T-bone
Advanced
- Feb 15, 2003
- 239
- 2
PineyBob is right,##DELETED##
Sure alpa has taken cuts. But at the end of the day their children will still attend better schools, they will still be riding in new Volvo's, still be taking vacation's and even with these cuts and whats possible and likely to happen with their pensions. They will still be able to out save the other employee groups in regards to retirement.
Chip has argued that the IAM and AFA should grow up and save the airline for all employee's. Well the shoe's on the other foot what gives?
Appearantly what Chip meant by saving the airline for others, was to sacrifice ourselves to save it for pilots. So now Chip recomends we give our retirements away to save the pilots pain. Well welcome to the real world dude. Remember what the pilots did for the IAM in 92. If you don't I can assure you they do.
Now Chip says if they don't get things their way they will strike. So I will ask again. Besides the US pilots who would cross the picket line, how many many other alpa bus drivers from NW, UA, AA, Dl etc. Would come over for a little simulator training, and of we go into the wild blue yonder. I only ask this because pilot solidarity and honor is and has been an open book in this industry.
Sure alpa has taken cuts. But at the end of the day their children will still attend better schools, they will still be riding in new Volvo's, still be taking vacation's and even with these cuts and whats possible and likely to happen with their pensions. They will still be able to out save the other employee groups in regards to retirement.
Chip has argued that the IAM and AFA should grow up and save the airline for all employee's. Well the shoe's on the other foot what gives?
Appearantly what Chip meant by saving the airline for others, was to sacrifice ourselves to save it for pilots. So now Chip recomends we give our retirements away to save the pilots pain. Well welcome to the real world dude. Remember what the pilots did for the IAM in 92. If you don't I can assure you they do.
Now Chip says if they don't get things their way they will strike. So I will ask again. Besides the US pilots who would cross the picket line, how many many other alpa bus drivers from NW, UA, AA, Dl etc. Would come over for a little simulator training, and of we go into the wild blue yonder. I only ask this because pilot solidarity and honor is and has been an open book in this industry.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/21/2003 11:30:14 PM PineyBob wrote:
Respectfully I must disagree with you! The human being is the only species that will foul its own nest...
----------------
[/blockquote]
Respectful disagreement is the only kind.
The human species is indeed unique. They are the only one that has the ability to obligate themselves by contracts.
It is well documented that long ago, men would meet to haggle over terms and would bring a live animal to seal the deal. Once the terms were agreed, they would slit the animal’s throat as a testimony to their own obligation (and deserved fate if they reneged).
And then they salted the meat and shared dinner. They had “salt between themâ€. (an old yet vivid term)
Now we consider ourselves more civilized because we use a pen to seal the deal and have a banquet.
We have lost something along the way. I think it has something to do with accepting Lysol in the punch…
----------------
On 2/21/2003 11:30:14 PM PineyBob wrote:
Respectfully I must disagree with you! The human being is the only species that will foul its own nest...
----------------
[/blockquote]
Respectful disagreement is the only kind.
The human species is indeed unique. They are the only one that has the ability to obligate themselves by contracts.
It is well documented that long ago, men would meet to haggle over terms and would bring a live animal to seal the deal. Once the terms were agreed, they would slit the animal’s throat as a testimony to their own obligation (and deserved fate if they reneged).
And then they salted the meat and shared dinner. They had “salt between themâ€. (an old yet vivid term)
Now we consider ourselves more civilized because we use a pen to seal the deal and have a banquet.
We have lost something along the way. I think it has something to do with accepting Lysol in the punch…
Slam&Click
Member
- Aug 24, 2002
- 90
- 0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/22/2003 1:42:13 AM T-bone wrote:
Now Chip says if they don't get things their way they will strike.
----------------
[/blockquote]
This must be a red-letter day in history because I never thought that I would come to his defense, but T-Bone, Chip has never stated that the pilots would strike.
----------------
On 2/22/2003 1:42:13 AM T-bone wrote:
Now Chip says if they don't get things their way they will strike.
----------------
[/blockquote]
This must be a red-letter day in history because I never thought that I would come to his defense, but T-Bone, Chip has never stated that the pilots would strike.
Yeah, its funny how someones "tone" changes when the shoe is on their foot, remember all the pep talks and " you guys better get a grip", "its a new ball game" and"they will pull the plug" if you guys do nt take your contract offers...ect well Mr. Chip "Welcome to the Jungle" There openings for C-130 crews in Saudia Arabia.
www.climbto350.com & aviationemployment.com, Chip...
www.climbto350.com & aviationemployment.com, Chip...
Actually, CWA and IAM fleet have additional W-2 cuts built into their contracts. As each mainline employee is downgraded to express, his pay will be reduced from 20.66 (preconcessions) to 13.01 - that's 40%. Unlike the flight crews, most agents will have no chance of working themselves out of the express ghetto. Additionally, a downgraded employee will take major hits in vacation and pension accrual. On a brighter note, health care cost will remain the same
airlineorphan
Senior
- Aug 20, 2002
- 380
- 0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/22/2003 4:59:07 PM diogenes wrote:
Actually, CWA and IAM fleet have additional W-2 cuts built into their contracts. As each mainline employee is downgraded to express, his pay will be reduced from 20.66 (preconcessions) to 13.01 - that's 40%. Unlike the flight crews, most agents will have no chance of working themselves out of the express ghetto. Additionally, a downgraded employee will take major hits in vacation and pension accrual. On a brighter note, health care cost will remain the same
----------------
[/blockquote]
And along those lines, AFA members who have been furloughed or will be will have the opportunity to work for 35% less than mainline at MidAtlantic (should it turn out to be more than a bait and switch). We'll be under a copy of the old American Eagle contract--probably the worst contract in the industry.
yay.
-Airlineorphan
----------------
On 2/22/2003 4:59:07 PM diogenes wrote:
Actually, CWA and IAM fleet have additional W-2 cuts built into their contracts. As each mainline employee is downgraded to express, his pay will be reduced from 20.66 (preconcessions) to 13.01 - that's 40%. Unlike the flight crews, most agents will have no chance of working themselves out of the express ghetto. Additionally, a downgraded employee will take major hits in vacation and pension accrual. On a brighter note, health care cost will remain the same
----------------
[/blockquote]
And along those lines, AFA members who have been furloughed or will be will have the opportunity to work for 35% less than mainline at MidAtlantic (should it turn out to be more than a bait and switch). We'll be under a copy of the old American Eagle contract--probably the worst contract in the industry.
yay.
-Airlineorphan
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
I don't know, Piney, call me a delutionist, but there's no such thing as the "real world"; as I said before, it's just a lie we have to rise above.
Lessons to be learned? If I learned any, it was "Union busting" is not some concept, or someones paranoid imagination. It takes many forms.
As far as too many seats and not enough azzes, that's the whole theory of shrinking capacity, downsizing to profitability. "Supply and demand". Less capacity the higher the demand.
I am looking in my crystal ball and after the shake out, I see higher priced tickets in the next couple years.
Lessons to be learned? If I learned any, it was "Union busting" is not some concept, or someones paranoid imagination. It takes many forms.
As far as too many seats and not enough azzes, that's the whole theory of shrinking capacity, downsizing to profitability. "Supply and demand". Less capacity the higher the demand.
I am looking in my crystal ball and after the shake out, I see higher priced tickets in the next couple years.
