Southwest In The Boston Area

[WNjetdoc]

You have to understand how large the New England area is. WN captured a market out of PVD before JB and AW started to beef up Boston. Why would anyone, unless u lived close to PVD, fly SOUTHTRASH. JB has a superior product and so does AWest. Its really a no-brainer folks. Looking forward to JB expansion and hopes for AW and US to merge into a full service- low fare airline. Had enough of the SOUTHWEST effect!!!! B) B) B)

[post="265204"][/post]​

Don't hate us because we are good at what we do. You're another Usair employee that blames WN for the situation that you're in. You come over to our board and call us, "Southtrash", etc. All you are doing is showing a lack of class. Be an adult and get over it, don't blame WN for your situation, look inside your company and you will see what happened.

Using B6 and AWA instead of your own company as an example shows how bad a shape you guys are really in....yikes, .

I know you're hurting inside and looking for answers, I feel for you skippy, but don't be a player hater, learn to be a player, B) .

 

[AirplaneFan]

Airplanefan,

I would not call it MISinformation. How about spinning the data to fit your arguement, just like I'm about to do. I will agree on a percentage basis that MHT and PVD are growing faster than BOS for the YTD March period. However, on an absolute basis BOS gained 356,000 passengers, PVD ganed 104,000, while MHT gained 75,000 passengers - Logan is looking pretty good to me.

PVD and MHT have succeeded by capturing passengers from Logan's natural service area. My contention is that there is a gradual shift occuring back to Logan. I live in the western BOS suburbs in the 495 area. PVD is a little closer for me, but since the Ted Williams tunnel opened, I have not used PVD since. The drive straight into Logan on the Pike is so much better these days. Have you driven through Providence during rush hour recently, with the construction going on, it can also be a "mess". MHT likes to market itself as having cheap parking, but I would argue the cost of parking is way down on the list of reasons to choose a particular airport.

Southwest stated during the recent conference call to discuss their 1st qtr results that they were seeing "pressure" in the Manchester-Providence-Boston market. If they are under pressure now, when jetBlue operates only 18 daily flights from BOS, what's going to happen in a few years when jetBlue operates from 11 gates and has appproximately 100 daily depts.

I still contend that Southwest needs to seriously examine serving Logan and if and/or when they do, we would finally get to see jetBlue and Southwest competing directly with each other.

[post="265483"][/post]​

JimmyD,

Why does SW need to go to Boston at all and particularly why does it need to go their to compete with JetBlue? In the private market, companies look for the best opportunities not the ones that have the greatest competition. If JetBlue wants to compete with SW then they know where they are. I would contend that JetBlue has gone to great lengths to avoid competition with SW. I would agree with that strategy. JetBlue and Southwest both do well competing against the likes of U, UAL, CO, NW, DL and AA. Why would they want to compete against each other?

 

[B6Busdriver]

JimmyD,

Why does SW need to go to Boston at all and particularly why does it need to go their to compete with JetBlue? In the private market, companies look for the best opportunities not the ones that have the greatest competition. If JetBlue wants to compete with SW then they know where they are. I would contend that JetBlue has gone to great lengths to avoid competition with SW. I would agree with that strategy. JetBlue and Southwest both do well competing against the likes of U, UAL, CO, NW, DL and AA. Why would they want to compete against each other?

[post="265708"][/post]​

Why would an airline with 71 airplanes go head to head with a 400 airplane gorilla? There have been and are plenty of markets to choose from. The biggest problem JetBlue faces in the immediate future is lack of airplanes and gate space.

Seperately I suspect that WN New England traffic may be affected by WN themselves. Some customers may travel to and connect through PHL instead of BWI. With BWI and PHL there is definitely overlap. That said they are both goldmines that WN will make a killing on.

 

[sfb]

I would not call it MISinformation. How about spinning the data to fit your arguement, just like I'm about to do. I will agree on a percentage basis that MHT and PVD are growing faster than BOS for the YTD March period. However, on an absolute basis BOS gained 356,000 passengers, PVD ganed 104,000, while MHT gained 75,000 passengers - Logan is looking pretty good to me.

"Spin" is basically a nicer way to say misinformation. You choose to use selected statistics to present a distorted picture of reality -- seems like misinformation to me!

If you want to talk about absolute passenger numbers, Southwest has NOTHING to worry about from jetBlue, considering they STILL board more passengers at each of PVD and MHT than B6 boards at Logan. They also continue to grow faster in absolute numbers than jetBlue.

Moreover, the growth at BOS in 2002 and 2003 is really more of a readjustment from the industry-leading decline in traffic at Logan in 2001 and 2002. But hey, you wouldn't want to mess up your "spin" with the truth, now would you?

PVD and MHT have succeeded by capturing passengers from Logan's natural service area. My contention is that there is a gradual shift occuring back to Logan.

Actually, what PVD and MHT have done is capture passengers which are more naturally in their service areas. Ten years ago, air service choices from both airports were pitiful, and the old T.F. Green Airport terminal almost made Terminal D at BOS look nice. Service from PVD and MHT was limited and fares were even higher than those seen at BOS. Southwest (along with good airport management) managed to turn those disadvantages around. At least two to three million people live in PVD's natural catchment area, which pretty much covers all of Rhode Island, the I-195 corridor through Fall River and New Bedford, Cape Cod, Eastern CT, and a good chunk of Central Mass. in the absence of a viable ORH. At least two to three million people are better served by MHT than BOS; if you live in Lowell, Fitchburg, Lawrence, or anywhere in N.H., MHT is a better option.

I live in the western BOS suburbs in the 495 area. PVD is a little closer for me, but since the Ted Williams tunnel opened, I have not used PVD since. The drive straight into Logan on the Pike is so much better these days.

So you happily fork over about $8.00 round-trip in tolls and pay an extra $50/week for parking? Even with a Fast Lane tag, the Weston tolls can be brutal.

Have you driven through Providence during rush hour recently, with the construction going on, it can also be a "mess".

Traffic in Boston is a mess even when it's NOT rush hour! It's better than it was, but you do realize that they've been working on the Boston Extension of the Pike as well, right? Ever tried to drive to Logan at 5 AM for an early flight with all the highways through downtown Boston closed for construction?

MHT likes to market itself as having cheap parking, but I would argue the cost of parking is way down on the list of reasons to choose a particular airport.

Well, which reasons sit higher on that list then? Clearly BOS has some of the highest parking rates in the nation.

Southwest stated during the recent conference call to discuss their 1st qtr results that they were seeing "pressure" in the Manchester-Providence-Boston market. If they are under pressure now, when jetBlue operates only 18 daily flights from BOS, what's going to happen in a few years when jetBlue operates from 11 gates and has appproximately 100 daily depts.

Well, some of that "pressure" could also be from Independence, which is flying directly into PVD and MHT from IAD, not to mention the fire sales going on at the #2 carrier in both PVD and MHT, US Airways. I'd also point out that Southwest has increased their capacity at both PVD and MHT by at least 20-30% in the last year, and that also has a significant effect.

I still contend that Southwest needs to seriously examine serving Logan and if and/or when they do, we would finally get to see jetBlue and Southwest competing directly with each other.

Actually, I'd say that Southwest ought to consider service to BOS in the event of what they would term a "market opportunity." A certain twice-bankrupt airline controls twenty gates in one of the nicer terminals at BOS, and the prospects for that airline reorganizing successfully are murky. If that airline were to cease service, there would be a tremendous market opportunity at BOS, especially on short-haul routes to places like PHL and PIT. I don't believe they need to get involved in the fight between B6 and Song.

 

[markkus757]

While we're all bragging about construction that can potenially change the marketplace, there is talk of building an "intermodal facility" adjacent to the airport that would bring more commuters(potentially) by rail. They are talking about connecting southern Rhode Island to South Station in Boston, and providing some sort of connection(type open for debate still) to the air terminal. This, I believe, might have the same effect that the MHT connection will have. Plus, with the amount of bad press that the "efficient" tunnel system is getting in BOS, I wouldn't be surprised that people think twice about drowning going to the airport. The "other" airports in New England will never supplant BOS and the majority of their service. I think we are finding out that there is plenty of travellers to go around now. Any of these bitter people bad mouthing WN do not realize why they do it and how they do it. They will never understand the importance that WN has to the public.

 

[AirplaneFan]

While we're all bragging about construction that can potenially change the marketplace, there is talk of building an "intermodal facility" adjacent to the airport that would bring more commuters(potentially) by rail. They are talking about connecting southern Rhode Island to South Station in Boston, and providing some sort of connection(type open for debate still) to the air terminal. This, I believe, might have the same effect that the MHT connection will have. Plus, with the amount of bad press that the "efficient" tunnel system is getting in BOS, I wouldn't be surprised that people think twice about drowning going to the airport. The "other" airports in New England will never supplant BOS and the majority of their service. I think we are finding out that there is plenty of travellers to go around now. Any of these bitter people bad mouthing WN do not realize why they do it and how they do it. They will never understand the importance that WN has to the public.

[post="265909"][/post]​

I have often wondered whether MHT and PVD combined might be able to pass BOS in the domestic US market. There is plenty of precedent that secondary airports can challenge primary airports (FLL is now quite a bit larger than MIA, OAK is about even with SFO, EWR even with LGA and JFK).

 

[markkus757]

MHT and PVD will always be secondary to BOS, even if you combine the two. Right now BOS is well over 2 times larger than PVD+MHT. Even if you add BDL/PVD/MHT, BOS is still about twice as big! The thing is, the overall market is large enough to share decent service to many other markets without people having to drive a great distance to get to a specific airport. The huge discrepancy in fares is disappearing at all the airports in question, it's just a matter of getting a flight or two to certain large markets that MHT and PVD can support so pax don't have to drive to BOS to get a nonstop. These markets (from MHT/PVD would be: DEN, MIA, STL, IAH/HOU, LAX, SAN, SFO/OAK, LAS, PHX, and SEA).

 

[AirplaneFan]

MHT and PVD will always be secondary to BOS, even if you combine the two. Right now BOS is well over 2 times larger than PVD+MHT. Even if you add BDL/PVD/MHT, BOS is still about twice as big! The thing is, the overall market is large enough to share decent service to many other markets without people having to drive a great distance to get to a specific airport. The huge discrepancy in fares is disappearing at all the airports in question, it's just a matter of getting a flight or two to certain large markets that MHT and PVD can support so pax don't have to drive to BOS to get a nonstop. These markets (from MHT/PVD would be: DEN, MIA, STL, IAH/HOU, LAX, SAN, SFO/OAK, LAS, PHX, and SEA).

[post="267972"][/post]​

Below are the top 100 O&D lower 48 destinations from Boston and the combined MHT/PVD numbers. For a number of markets Manchester and Providence exceed Boston. For a number of markets Boston has an overwhelming lead that should over time dimish. It seems that the potential of Manchester and Providence can be determined by looking at the numbers from Orlando (69% of Boston traffic) and Chicago (63% of Boston traffic). Both of those cities have plenty of nonstop flights and low fares.

City BOSTON MHT/PVD %Boston traffic

New York, NY 3,984.78 362.82 9%
Washington, DC 2,531.73 699.55 28%
Chicago, IL 2,506.84 1,590.75 63%
Los Angeles, CA 2,437.82 469.23 19%
Orlando, FL 2,402.17 1,650.42 69%
Atlanta, GA 2,194.34 499.88 23%
San Francisco, CA 2,138.69 144.99 7%
Philadelphia, PA 1,887.06 2,042.93 108%
Ft. Lauderdale, FL 1,789.34 484.67 27%
Denver, CO 1,392.28 321.40 23%
Baltimore, MD 1,319.02 2,930.42 222%
Tampa, FL 1,317.17 1,226.51 93%
Las Vegas, NV 1,292.17 518.90 40%
Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX 1,252.06 257.06 21%
Minneapolis, MN 899.23 284.99 32%
Seattle, WA 835.97 398.36 48%
Detroit, MI 721.41 455.54 63%
Houston, TX 670.97 276.29 41%
West Palm Beach, FL 664.67 324.23 49%
Phoenix, AZ 646.63 506.83 78%
Oakland, CA 627.28 162.82 26%
Miami, FL 595.10 75.75 13%
Ft. Myers, FL 591.19 114.66 19%
San Jose, CA 549.34 146.29 27%
Long Beach, CA 531.73 0%
Raleigh/Durham, NC 508.15 452.93 89%
San Diego, CA 472.82 495.64 105%
Milwaukee, WI 440.54 68.25 15%
Pittsburgh, PA 433.69 293.79 68%
St. Louis, MO 402.28 270.10 67%
Charlotte, NC 380.76 296.62 78%
Cleveland, OH 375.54 421.40 112%
Akron/Canton, OH 365.43 0%
Salt Lake City, UT 336.63 149.34 44%
Kansas City, MO 335.54 288.47 86%
Cincinnati, OH 315.00 177.71 56%
Indianapolis, IN 306.73 247.39 81%
Dayton, OH 270.43 62.70 23%
Newport News, VA 265.54 29.12 11%
New Orleans, LA 262.39 158.25 60%
Portland, OR 256.08 286.51 112%
Greensboro, NC 247.06 99.67 40%
Norfolk, VA 244.89 264.45 108%
Buffalo, NY 235.10 48.14 20%
Jacksonville, FL 203.15 314.78 155%
Richmond, VA 200.65 60.09 30%
Memphis, TN 192.93 38.25 20%
Austin, TX 176.95 202.17 114%
Rochester, NY 168.26 16.95 10%
Myrtle Beach, SC 159.34 60.21 38%
Albuquerque, NM 159.02 157.81 99%
Savannah, GA 154.67 67.17 43%
Nashville, TN 150.00 463.69 309%
Columbus, OH 149.78 195.75 131%
Colorado Springs, CO 141.95 25.21 18%
Sacramento, CA 135.65 171.41 126%
Madison, WI 130.00 52.49 40%
Charleston, SC 126.08 75.32 60%
Grand Rapids, MI 125.97 35.32 28%
Harrisburg, PA 120.32 24.23 20%
Santa Ana, CA 117.39 124.88 106%
Omaha, NE 115.43 93.36 81%
San Antonio, TX 114.89 170.21 148%
Des Moines, IA 105.21 26.19 25%
Louisville, KY 99.23 128.80 130%
Greenville, SC 97.82 81.51 83%
Ontario, CA 96.63 94.12 97%
Reno, NV 94.89 87.81 93%
Columbia, SC 88.80 52.16 59%
Tucson, AZ 88.04 52.82 60%
Knoxville, TN 80.43 40.53 50%
Islip/Long Island, NY 75.97 0%
Syracuse, NY 74.56 0%
Wichita, KS 74.34 0%
Birmingham, AL 73.80 82.82 112%
El Paso, TX 71.30 27.49 39%
Pensacola, FL 69.89 15.00 21%
Moline, IL/Daven, IA 59.23 0%
Spokane, WA 58.04 20.76 36%
Bangor, ME 56.63 0%
Oklahoma City, OK 55.43 84.12 152%
Tallahassee, FL 55.00 25.64 47%
Boise, ID 53.36 40.31 76%
Huntsville/Decatur, AL 49.02 52.49 107%
Jackson, WY 46.95 0%
Lexington, KY 46.30 49.99 108%
Santa Barbara, CA 45.43 0%
South Bend, IN 45.21 19.02 42%
Ft. Wayne, IN 42.60 0%
Green Bay, WI 41.41 25.75 62%
Valparaiso, FL 40.54 10.76 27%
Little Rock, AR 40.54 55.96 138%
Burlington, VT 39.34 0%
Key West, FL 38.47 0%
Traverse City, MI 38.04 0%
Mobile, AL 38.04 12.82 34%
Cedar Rapids, IA 37.60 0%
Lansing, MI 36.84 32.70 89%
Asheville, NC 35.21 24.66 70%

 

[markkus757]

A quick count shows that only 17 of BOS's top 100 markets are bigger in PVD+MHT. A good % of those 17 are smaller markets that will never see nonstop service from any of the 3 airports in the comparison. Long story short is that while there are many areas of potential PVD/MHT have a LONG way to go to equal BOS by any stretch of the imagination. Isn't it kinda funny in a way what WN has done to the PVD/MHT markets (look at BWI, PHL, and BNA). CLE, CMH, PDX, and AUS surprise me the most! Imagine if someone could find a way to serve the NYC market from PVD/MHT with low(er) fares - talk about potential!!!