Southwest business model

[ramper_in_las]

In reading the continuing saga of Southwest Airlines as presented by magsau a United employee no less. The only assumption I can come to is this. Southwest is the leader in the Aviation Industry on many fronts. Don't you all think if Southwest Employees take pay concessions due to BK (which all of the experts on this thread are saying is going to happen), wouldn't all the other airlines have to do the same to even out the playing field again? WN's demise is yours too!!!

 

[wnbubbleboy]

magsau

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Most active in Southwest Airlines
( 193 posts / 32% of this member's active posts )

 

[nostradamus]

nostradamus, would it make you any happier to see SWA file for BK like US Airways and thousands of people take pay cuts or worst yet lose their jobs? Would that make your day? If that were to happen and SWA lowered the bar even below US Airways standards how long would it be before US Air followed suit and did the same thing? Sooner or later its going to effect you AGAIN.

I worked for US Airways for 17 years,from the first BK till the time I finally had enough quit and was hired on with Southwest I was miserable, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. But you seem to get some sort of satisfaction out of it, your not right dude... get help.

Southwest actually started the slide in pilot pay and benefits. American added the B scale and frequent flyer mileage which allows someone free flights if their dog is big and they have to order enough dog food each year on their credit card. United allowed large regional jets of Air Wisconsin. Delta added the arrogance thinking they were better than anyone else and a impotent Alpa president Duffy. Northwest they; Northwest hung in there, I have great respect for them, except they provided a president for ALPA who's lack of leadership contributed to the demise of the piloting profession, Duane Woerth, no one whistled in the dark better than he did. Now did someone lower the bar or sat by and allowed these things to happen, hoping they can grab the poor bastards routes. The posts on this boards history will show that every airline pilots competitor pilots could not wait to grab the assets of another pilots company except the pilots. We are all to blame.

Back to your original question, yes the demise of Southwest would be poetic justice.

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."
Quote from the bible, I think.

 

[KCFlyer]

Southwest actually started the slide in pilot pay and benefits. American added the B scale and frequent flyer mileage which allows someone free flights if their dog is big and they have to order enough dog food each year on their credit card. United allowed large regional jets of Air Wisconsin. Delta added the arrogance thinking they were better than anyone else and a impotent Alpa president Duffy. Northwest they; Northwest hung in there, I have great respect for them, except they provided a president for ALPA who's lack of leadership contributed to the demise of the piloting profession, Duane Woerth, no one whistled in the dark better than he did. Now did someone lower the bar or sat by and allowed these things to happen, hoping they can grab the poor bastards routes. The posts on this boards history will show that every airline pilots competitor pilots could not wait to grab the assets of another pilots company except the pilots. We are all to blame.

Back to your original question, yes the demise of Southwest would be poetic justice.

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."
Quote from the bible, I think.

Yes....why just before AA started the B scale, Southwest was flying to Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Arkansas and New Mexico. Amazing that a little 5 state airline could start all that. Actually, if you want to know the truth...it was the forerunner of today's Continental that started any slide in wages...or have you forgotten Frank Lorenzo?

But that's okay....as has been pointed out before, any failure of SWA will only serve to screw yourselves even more. Because first would come pay cuts...that YOUR company will HAVE to match...then...if your scenario holds out and your dream of a SWA failure comes true - then YOUR management will point to that and say "they couldn't make it with their low wages....you MUST go lower". Pretty soon you'll be paying them to come to work.

Of course...one has to wonder how much stronger American, Delta, Northwest and Continental would have become had US not decided to drag the industry down thru their two bankruptcies. But those bankruptcies were necessary I guess to keep guys like you working...albeit a lower rates than most any other airlines.

 

[wnbubbleboy]

Back to your original question, yes the demise of Southwest would be poetic justice.

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."
Quote from the bible, I think.

Hubris or hybris (Greek ὕβρις), according to its modern usage, is exaggerated self pride or self-confidence (overbearing pride), often resulting in fatal retribution. In Ancient Greece, hubris referred to actions taken in order to shame the victim, thereby making oneself seem superior

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris

 

[nostradamus]

"US not decided to drag the industry down thru their two bankruptcies."

KCflyer quote abover.

Nostradamus quote below.

Southwest started the slide. They worked for nothing, that was my point. Not today, the cause of the disease was yesterday.

 

[magsau]

View attachment 6074
magsau

Total Cumulative Posts 600
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Most active in Southwest Airlines
( 193 posts / 32% of this member's active posts )

Hey, I thought you had me blocked? Anyway, thanks for the props. I suppose SWA wings are in a box of "Trix" for the pimps and ho's that travel on SWA. In fact didn't you guys have some fornication enroute recently? Heck probably those two naked guys in the cockpit were up to something.....not that there is anything wrong with that.....

 

[KCFlyer]

Southwest started the slide. They worked for nothing, that was my point. Not today, the cause of the disease was yesterday.

Then how come you make less than they do today? Seems that you'd want to "keep up with the Joneses"

Hey, I thought you had me blocked? Anyway, thanks for the props. I suppose SWA wings are in a box of "Trix" for the pimps and ho's that travel on SWA. In fact didn't you guys have some fornication enroute recently? Heck probably those two naked guys in the cockpit were up to something.....not that there is anything wrong with that.....

I guess UA could use more "pimps and ho's" money....of course, you could always operate at a loss, but keep that higher caliber clientle...you know...the first class food cart defecator.

And all things being equal, I guess I'd rather have a naked pilot on a ferry flight than a mentally unbalanced one on a revenue flight.

 

[Richard]

OK, folks, this is veering off subject and not in a good way. Let's get back on topic or this one is closed. And let's stop with the slurs and snipes please.

There will be no more warnings.

 

[nostradamus]

Kcflyer quote

"Then how come you make less than they do today? Seems that you'd want to "keep up with the Joneses"

Nostradamus states'

I make less than they do because they dragged the industry down. I never wanted to keep up with the Jones', I did not want to spend my time picking up my kids from jail and rehab in my Lexus, my goal has always been to visit my kids and grandkids in my Chevy. Your stereotyping attitude towards a group of people is telling and very disturbing.

The point is , live to fight another day. I stand by my previous recollection of the airline industries downfall. Comment on that, personal attacks only confirm your inability to converse in intelligent terms.

 

[FutureUScapt]

Then how come you make less than they do today? Seems that you'd want to "keep up with the Joneses"

I think nearly everyone in this industry and anyone who follows it will tell you that low cost carriers, chiefly WN, are what forced the legacy carriers to change. WN was and is very successful in operating profitably with a low cost structure and offers a product that many passengers find adequate. That said, it would be impossible for legacy carriers to match WN's costs with the same payrates because legacy carriers offer things that cost more money like international and express ops, alliance participation, etc. WN is just beginning to find that out now as they ponder assigned seating and upgrade their res system for intl capability. If every carrier tried to be like WN, no small community would have air service, there'd be no international flights, and each state would have about an average of two airports with commercial air service. No matter how much another carrier tries to emulate WN, it simply won't work bc legacy carriers that try to create a low fare division (Delta-twice, US, UA, CO) will always have to deal with the higher costs of the aforementioned items. I will say that WN has always had great management while most legacies have historically not and obviously that plays a part in the picture as well.

So after 9/11 when the industry was going down the tube, legacy carriers had basically two items on the expense sheet that stuck out - fuel and labor. Since it's not that easy to tell Exxon you're going to pay them less for fuel, they went after labor and look what happened...

Of course...one has to wonder how much stronger American, Delta, Northwest and Continental would have become had US not decided to drag the industry down thru their two bankruptcies.

I can't really defend going thru two bankruptcies but US, already the smallest and holding onto the least cash of all the legacies, was certainly affected the most by 9/11 given the prolonged closure of DCA and its major presence in short-haul northeast traffic.

 

[KCFlyer]

Kcflyer quote

"Then how come you make less than they do today? Seems that you'd want to "keep up with the Joneses"

Nostradamus states'

I make less than they do because they dragged the industry down. I never wanted to keep up with the Jones', I did not want to spend my time picking up my kids from jail and rehab in my Lexus, my goal has always been to visit my kids and grandkids in my Chevy. Your stereotyping attitude towards a group of people is telling and very disturbing.

The point is , live to fight another day. I stand by my previous recollection of the airline industries downfall. Comment on that, personal attacks only confirm your inability to converse in intelligent terms.

How come one of their biggest cost savings is ignored in discussions like this....one fleet type...but it's always brought up when "who wants to be in a guppy on a transcon"? But because Southwest didn't feel the need to get 5 different aircraft types...because their model didn't include a Europe and Pacific expansion....because they didn't feel the need to cater to those who felt a need for a first class cabin...because they didn't feel a need to capture every leisure traveller...none of that counts in keeping costs down, but it's sure used as a put down when comparing SWA to the others.

For the record, I don't see where I did any personal attack at all. You can blame SWA for the "downfall of the industry", but I seem to recall a boom period for airlines in the years following deregulation. If I were you, I'd look at the management of your own airline...and your own unions. I seem to recall the battle cry "Parity plus 1"...didn't hear squat about Southwest from you in those days. But oops...the climate took a downturn...and suddenly in Southwest's fault? Blame them all you want, but what it boils down to is this...you both faced a choice...a hundred dollars today or a thousand dollars in a week...in other words - save us a little today, we'll see that you are repaid with interest in the future. You opted for the hundred bucks today...even when your company only had fifty bucks in the bank.

 

[jimntx]

KCFlyer, don't you see that he and the others MUST blame SWA for what ails them? Otherwise, they might have to look at themselves. Overpriced product, runaway labor contracts, bloated executive salaries, serving non-profitable "prestige" markets--and I include my own airline (AA) in all of this.

For instance, AA has flown DFW-ZRH for years. AFAIK, it has not been profitable for some time. However, they just decided to eliminate that route recently. I bet you wouldn't have to look very far to find the same/similar situations at LCC, UAUA, et al.

Obviously, it's the low cockpit salaries at SWA that have caused the ZRH route to be unprofitable. As long as SWA keeps posting positive numbers in the Net Profit column, why bother defending them? They don't need it.

If and when these predicted losses, bankruptcies, and restructuring occur at SWA, then we'll see. Until then, my recommendation to SWA (and you know, the management at SWA is waiting with baited breath for this) is keep doing whatever it is that you do.

 

[tulswa]

If one wants to believe that SWA cockpit payrates are the reason for their airline's woes, I doubt that any facts will swaay their opinion, but I'll try anyway.

Prior to 2002, SWA'a market share was mostly insignificant except where flights directly competed. Number one head-to-head competitor was America West. Remember Continental Lite and United Shuttle? Reduced pay rates for crews but still uncompetitive.

Although my hourly pay rate may lagged somewhat behind those at the legacies flying similar equipment in the mid to late 90's, my take-home was competitive and often exceeded that of my contemporaries.

I am amazed when other pilots cringe at the thought of 25 minute turns or 5 leg days. It may not be for everyone, and that is fine. The bottom line is productivity.

It is not how much you pay someone as much as how many you have to pay to do the same job, especially with the medical costs that have skyrocketed over the past 15 years. We have all listened to pilots brag about how little thay work for some enormous sum of money. Those are the carriers that have encountered financial problems, not because of the pilots, but because of a management philosophy that allows people to feel justified in such a work ethic.

 

[magsau]

I am amazed when other pilots cringe at the thought of 25 minute turns or 5 leg days. It may not be for everyone, and that is fine. The bottom line is productivity.

So when I fly a 14 hour nonstop flight am I not more productive than you?

The problem the legacy carriers have is that we are full service carriers that offer flights and connections to all corners of the world. SWA is a little airline that serves few markets and does not touch all cities with any type of codeshare. The cost of being a full service airline will always be higher, even if we only flew the same equipment type, the beast is different in cost and structure. For SWA it has been the fuel that has made you guys money. With the new routes losing money and the hedges expiring you will now be graded differently.

The problem the public has is they want to fly for the mythical $49 fare that does not exist. SWA is often the highest fare in some markets, that is why they are afraid to sell their seats on expedia, travelocity or any of the other sites. For someone to see on the grid that SWA is that much more for that much less would be unTexas like.

The cloak is being removed and when you guys are finally guaged on your finances, less the hedge curve then maybe you will acknowledge the shortcomings. Kelly is ready to stop growing and turn back old planes. The SWA heydays may have just passed. Time for the bar to be raised by the pilots that put it there in the first place, the legacy carriers. I have no doubt that you guys don't have the ability to negotiate any type of industry leading pact that would raise all boats.