ATA only had 12 slots (6 takeoff,6 landing) for a total of 6 in/out flights. Hardly enough to start a shuttle type operation. More important is how many flights are the going to have in BOS? I think most of their destination choices will be to MDW,BWI, LAS and Florida.
Rumors of US reducing BOS due to WN
- Thread starter mrman
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Real tired
Veteran
Instead, GoFares were born!!!
Oddly enough, GoFares were only available on the routes which competed directly with WN!
Where is "Seth" and the yellow Hummer I always wanted?
jimntx
Veteran
Oh, I didn't mean to imply that WN would start a NE Corridor shuttle operation. That's not their style--with the noted exception of HOU-DAL, of course
. However, 6 flights per day each way, BOS-LGA with a OW fare of $98 walkup (+$15 for Business Select) will put a dent in the loads for the rest of us and make us look sorta (what's the word I need? Oh, yeah...) greedy!And, the way the rest of us are hurting for ready cash, don't think for one minute that slots at LGA might not become available for the right price. For that matter, if the gummint has its way, we'll all have to bid for them. Who is in the best financial position right now? Oh yeah, WN!
jimcfs
Veteran
Oh, I didn't mean to imply that WN would start a NE Corridor shuttle operation. That's not their style--with the noted exception of HOU-DAL, of course
I beg to differ. That style of service IS their bread and butter. Look at what they did intra-California after US deserted PSA's old routes. Their latest, MSP-MDW, is going right after NW, er DL, and UA.
I agree, 6 slots at LGA isn't much to work with... right now. However, look at things like BOS-ISP, BOS-PHL (wishful thinking, but wouldn't surprise me... might do as much damage as a shuttle route), BOS-BWI, BOS-IAD, and BOS-MDW and suddenly you make dents against the Shuttle. Look at what they've done in the SoCal area hitting not only LAX, but ONT, SNA, SAN and SJC. They hit the minor airports with shuttle type operations and leave the larger airports for longer haul routes/mini hubs (think BWI, LAS, LAX, PHX, BNA, MDW). It's too bad they don't fly into EWR (slot controlled?), HPN or Stewart, and they could potentially do some REAL shuttle damage out of BOS.
Here's another thought about BOS. What about some of the old bread and butter non-hub AL/US routes like BOS-BUF, BOS-ROC, BOS-PIT, etc? They could make them one stops to other places, MDW, BNA, DAL and HOU come to mind and make some interesting routings that business types might look at, especially with their fare structure. If done correctly, then WN not only goes after US but also UA, AA, DL and CO!
Now, with 6 slots at LGA, where would you place these in the WN system? My guess would be 3X BWI and 3X MDW. PHX and LAS would violate the LGA rules and you'd have to support connecting traffic out of those "hubs". Both BWI and MDW would give them enough O&D and has enough connections to make it work, until they could acquire more slots. Also, you get the bonus of going after US in BWI/DCA and UA/AA in ORD via MDW.
Speaking of slots, didn't ATA have slots at DCA?
PA18
Senior
- Aug 12, 2004
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Many good points, and all very possible.
Since we can all only speculate, as WN hasn't revealed their schedule yet...
First, BOS-MDW would not harm US. The only mainline westbound destinations US has from either BOS or LGA are PHX and LAS. (BOS-PIT is now all regionals, and LGA-PIT has one mainline a day.) MDW service would compete with UA and AA.
As far as ISP is concerned, that is not where the business traveler on the Shuttle wants to originate or terminate. That service would go up against jetBlue at JFK, in competition for the students at Boston U. and Brandeis going home to Long Island for the weekend, and looking for the cheapest fare.
Regarding the old Allegheny/Mohawk/Empire routes to upstate NY, those are all operated by US partner regional jets and turboprops, and are not popular destinations for the Great Unwashed, which seems to be WN's bread and butter. I doubt they would waste assets running against RJ's on those routes for the 100 or so business fliers who travel them each day.
I wouldn't be surprised to see WN dabble in the BOS-PHL market, to see how they'd do. Not just for the PHL O&D business traffic, but if you were connecting through PHL to another destination, which airline would you rather fly on?
Expect also to see at least one Florida destination from BOS, and possibly from LGA, while US refuses to fly any farther south than CLT.
In other news, B6 has just announced non-stop service from BOS to SDQ. Do you have any idea how many Dominicans live in the BOS area?
While Parker fiddles...
jimcfs
Veteran
After I posted last night, I found this on FT. Good info from DOT's Q2 Consumer Airfare report.
jimntx
Veteran
Do not underestimate the power of WN to attract business travelers. Maybe not on the routes you were talking about, but when it comes to short flights like BOS-LGA or BOS-BWI, you might find your clock cleaned if they decide to do it.
I commute on WN a lot. You would be surprised how many suits with only a laptop in tow are on their flights between major city pairs on a daily basis. I was on a 9:30am WN flight from DAL to STL about a month ago. Out of the 50 or so people on the flight, only about 5 were NOT wearing suits and ties. This is especially true since they started Business Select.
I fly for AA. We used to have 14-15 flights/day each way every day between DFW and STL. We now have 9 on weekdays/Sunday and only 6 on Saturdays. Now, I know that not all of that reduction is due to WN, but I'm just saying...
(And, I'm the first to admit that they beat us like a rented mule on DAL to STL, MCI, SAT, and AUS.
)After seeing this chart, I recently posted somewhere my prediction that WN will fly from BOS to PHL, MDW and BWI. PHL is a gimmee based on the average fares. MDW and BWI are naturals based on the amount of traffic and connectivity to the rest of WN's network. Another real possibility is IAD.
PA18
Senior
- Aug 12, 2004
- 398
- 9
I don't think WN would go into IAD. They would essentially be competing with themselves at BWI.
Sound familiar?
US started frequent BOS-IAD service back in the 90's, to compete with ValuJet, who were charging something like $69 a seat. As soon as US flooded that market, J7 pulled out, leaving US to remain in the market, where they continued to sell cheap fares as if they were still competing with J7 -- when what US was actually doing was stealing passengers from its own BOS-DCA route, which at the time was the highest-yield city pair in the system.
Bone-headed marketing and operational decisions are hardly a new phenomenon around these parts...
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #41
As said so elegantly by Jim, you have a very bad impression that WN does not carry business travelers. WN sells more full fare tickets as a % of passengers than any other airline world wide. In addition WN carries more passengers than any other airline world wide and has a website that carries more traffic than Orbitz (Number 3 travelsite world wide last time I looked). I respectfully suggest you get over to Dallas, Houston, California, Kansas City, St Louis, Chicago on a Monday morning and count the suits. The worst thing one can do in business is to underestimate your competion, and I think you are. WN started by carrying business travelers. Look at inter Calf and interTexas shuttles with service up to every 30 minutes and free booze in coach That is to cater to the business traveler. Want to know what they will price BOS-PHL if the enter that market, don't look at other airlines, looks at the cost to drive and Amtrak. That is who they will see as their pricing competition, not US>
Travelpro72
Veteran
- Jan 30, 2005
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WN setting up shop on the BOS-PHL route will blow US out of the water. Sure US will "hold their own" due to PHL being such a big hub for them but WN will catch a HUGE amount of business. Those that believe otherwise are in for a rude awakening. For US's sake they better hope WN doesn't do it. It's a shoe in for WN. Short hop shuttle type operations are right up their alley. It's what they do best. Also if WN dedicated a few planes to those routes and are locked in and busy all day it wouldn't have an impact on the rest of their system. Those that will stick loyal to US......get ready for your CRJ between BOS-PHL.
Pacemaker
Senior
- Sep 3, 2002
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- 0
Southwest will do well with the business crowd on these routes in no small part because they hustle. The guy who is supposedly Airways' bread and butter in the northeast, he/she values time. WN wastes less of it. One small example - Wn pulls up to the gate, sets the brake, the engines start winding down, door 1L opens and people are walking off the plane within 30 seconds of parking. US Airways - it's like berthing the QE2. Nothing p_ _ _ _ s off people more than that last 2-3 minutes wasted. It erases anything positive you've done for the whole flight prior.
SS255
Veteran
The Brandeis students can always take the Beemer home to Lawn Guyland for the weekend.....it sure beats leaving it parked at Logan. (And as a Brandeis alumna myself, I can state this with complete confidence.
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